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Thread: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

  1. #1
    5312
    Guest

    Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    I was looking to start a new business on the farm which will use a lot of electric. I need to spend quite a lot on that so will not be able to fund a normal 10 to 15kw solar or wind system, at least the ones you see advertised here.

    However, I could import a system of either solar or wind of that size from China for about 20% of the UK advertised cost. I know the quality might not be as good and they probably will not last as long or be as efficient but it looks as though they would pay for themselves in under 2 years.

    I know they will not qualify for the FIT payments, would it be worth installing them now and in a few years when I have more money (hopefully ) changing them for better quality ? Hopefully, the better quality ones will be cheaper by then and the new business generating a profit.

    At present it would be a choice of the cheap ones or none at all.

  2. #2
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5312 View Post
    I was looking to start a new business on the farm which will use a lot of electric. I need to spend quite a lot on that so will not be able to fund a normal 10 to 15kw solar or wind system, at least the ones you see advertised here.

    However, I could import a system of either solar or wind of that size from China for about 20% of the UK advertised cost. I know the quality might not be as good and they probably will not last as long or be as efficient but it looks as though they would pay for themselves in under 2 years.

    I know they will not qualify for the FIT payments, would it be worth installing them now and in a few years when I have more money (hopefully ) changing them for better quality ? Hopefully, the better quality ones will be cheaper by then and the new business generating a profit.

    At present it would be a choice of the cheap ones or none at all.
    Some China made kit is excellent iphones and other electronics etc.

    Some is dire. I very strongly suspect you would rapidly have both a cheap system and nothing if you go down the route you suggest.

    You need to analyse your site and power demands then choose the best match for it.

    Given that there are plenty of FIT ready systems and funders I would be astonished if nothing could be found to suit you.

    Possibly a free electricity supply in return for site deal might suit you better?

  3. #3
    5312
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    I admit that there is a lot about this that I do not know yet but there are a few points that I have been considering.

    1. I'm not sure that it is a good idea (long term ) to give away 25 years of profits to another firm just because I'll be short of money for the next 1 or 2 years. Some farms that I know locally that funded small solar farms themselves are making 20% returns per year even though their installations were done at higher costs several years ago.

    2. The firms that I have contacted so far seem to have lost interested when I have told them we do not have a 3 phase connection. None have bothered to follow up on my enquirery even though their own online calculators show it would be profitable in this location.

    I wouldn't expect the Chinese products to be as good as the best but most are certified to normal standards and I don't think they would be completely useless. If they only worked for half the time of other products I would be fairly happy.

    Does anyone have experience of using the cheaper Chinese products ?

  4. #4
    Exfarmer
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    I would be amazed if any system would payforitself without FITS unless you can match consumption to use
    This is difficult except in some specialised. Situations
    Ie you need a lot of hot water which can be heated when the power is there.
    Most industrial situations will have. Highest power demand in the winter months for lighting heating egc. But the bulk of solar production is in the 6 summer months with only approx 5% in Dec & Jan
    You will still need a GS 59 if You have a grid Connection and if you have no three phase this may not be forthcoming
    This may explain why some of the companies have not been keen on your situation
    Solar fits only last 20 years now

  5. #5
    Panzer III
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    No.

    If you go the turbine route then you'll be using concrete at uk prices, and cable, and I doubt the grid would be kind enough to cut you a deal in Renimbi - you'll have to submit to a shafting like everyone else. I also doubt the grid will allow connection for a piece of apparatus that can't be spelt in roman characters, unless you want to pay for it to undergo approval.

    There is (or at least was) a Dutch company dealing in used turbines from 'repowered' wind farms on the continent, but by the time you pay for shipping and a new foundation kit you end up with 15 year old tech, no (or little) support as the manufacturer is beholden to the original owner, and a machine designed for light winds in Spain that probably wouldn't survive 12 months in the UK; and bugger all warranty.

    As mentioned above, don't believe a 3rd party when they offer you free electricity or 3% of profit for no risk :

    The less than obvious reason being because you will be ruining your area with massive turbines when you would be receiving the same financial gain from a single smaller turbine, locking up grid capacity and stopping your neighbours renewables project, and generally getting a name as a GREEDY BASTARD for taking the path of least cost to you, and highest cost to everyone else.

    We as farmers need to wake up right about now, and realise that someone elses massive turbines on our land is an incredibly stupid ******* idea.

  6. #6
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5312 View Post
    I admit that there is a lot about this that I do not know yet but there are a few points that I have been considering.

    1. I'm not sure that it is a good idea (long term ) to give away 25 years of profits to another firm just because I'll be short of money for the next 1 or 2 years. Some farms that I know locally that funded small solar farms themselves are making 20% returns per year even though their installations were done at higher costs several years ago.

    2. The firms that I have contacted so far seem to have lost interested when I have told them we do not have a 3 phase connection. None have bothered to follow up on my enquirery even though their own online calculators show it would be profitable in this location.

    I wouldn't expect the Chinese products to be as good as the best but most are certified to normal standards and I don't think they would be completely useless. If they only worked for half the time of other products I would be fairly happy.

    Does anyone have experience of using the cheaper Chinese products ?
    The joiner that does my windows thought that a good hefty looking Chinese wood briquette press at a third of the German price was too good to miss.

    It never worked, he now has an expensive ornament and is saving up for a German one with a bitter lesson learned.

  7. #7
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer III View Post
    No.

    If you go the turbine route then you'll be using concrete at uk prices, and cable, and I doubt the grid would be kind enough to cut you a deal in Renimbi - you'll have to submit to a shafting like everyone else. I also doubt the grid will allow connection for a piece of apparatus that can't be spelt in roman characters, unless you want to pay for it to undergo approval.

    There is (or at least was) a Dutch company dealing in used turbines from 'repowered' wind farms on the continent, but by the time you pay for shipping and a new foundation kit you end up with 15 year old tech, no (or little) support as the manufacturer is beholden to the original owner, and a machine designed for light winds in Spain that probably wouldn't survive 12 months in the UK; and bugger all warranty.

    As mentioned above, don't believe a 3rd party when they offer you free electricity or 3% of profit for no risk :

    The less than obvious reason being because you will be ruining your area with massive turbines when you would be receiving the same financial gain from a single smaller turbine, locking up grid capacity and stopping your neighbours renewables project, and generally getting a name as a GREEDY BASTARD for taking the path of least cost to you, and highest cost to everyone else.

    We as farmers need to wake up right about now, and realise that someone elses massive turbines on our land is an incredibly stupid ******* idea.

    One man's GREEDY BASTARD may well be perfectly happy to annoy those that think they can control what he does with his farm

    That said as someone who owns his turbines do take proper independent advice on what is best suited for you

    And don't give a stuff what I or anyone else for that matter says about your project.

  8. #8
    Panzer III
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by its yourself View Post
    One man's GREEDY BASTARD may well be perfectly happy to annoy those that think they can control what he does with his farm

    That said as someone who owns his turbines do take proper independent advice on what is best suited for you

    And don't give a stuff what I or anyone else for that matter says about your project.
    Ok, so say a hypothetical scenario emerges where a farmer new to the area signs a contract which says that he cant back out from a proposal to erect a group of turbines 126 meters (413 feet) to tip, in low lying arable farmland. And the council all of a sudden change their development plan, and start to decline applications for single 'farm scale' and farmer owned turbines - on all farms ?

    Yeah, to a point the hypothetical farmer can do with his farm as he sees fit, but its costing him a lot more than he thinks, and a whole lot of other farmers too.

    Its Yourself, a serious question for you. Are you saying there isn't a line you as a farmer could cross, where your neighbours turn their backs?
    - Or do all farmers have a 'God given right' to behave like complete ****'s, when 200t of cow muck becomes 2000t of duck shite next to the village, and a big enough turbine becomes 20 and owned by a Spanish pension fund?
    At what point do you stop being a 'good neighbour'? - I'm not trying to be wise.

  9. #9
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer III View Post
    Ok, so say a hypothetical scenario emerges where a farmer new to the area signs a contract which says that he cant back out from a proposal to erect 4 turbines 126 meters to tip, in low lying arable farmland. And the council all of a sudden start to decline on applications for single 'farm scale' and farmer owned turbines in a 30 mile radius?

    Yeah, to a point the hypothetical farmer can do with his farm as he sees fit, but its costing him a lot more than he thinks.

    And its costing *every * other * farmer * too *.
    You should have bought it then should you not?

    Or is that what this is really about?

    As for the council, seriously?

    I would be fascinated to see the link to the planning rules stating that position.

    Or is it more a case of some being far too late to the party?

    You perhaps?

    And being just a bit jealous of the "new to the area" chaps brains too?

  10. #10
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer III View Post
    At what point do you stop being a 'good neighbour'? - I'm not trying to be wise.

    The point before I break the environment planning or other rules is the point where I stop.


    If I gained permission for a 20 turbine site I would be very pleased, wouldn't you?

    If you are such a good neighbour can I have some of your SFP as I have none?

    Pretty please

  11. #11
    Panzer III
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    I would be fascinated to see the link to the planning rules stating that position.
    http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=78804

    If I gained permission for a 20 turbine site I would be very pleased, wouldn't you?
    Depends if you lived next door

    If you are such a good neighbour can I have some of your SFP as I have none?
    Pretty please
    So you made crap life choices. Does that mean you have a right to sell the skyline for a whole 3% of the profits while some absentee corporation takes millions out of the area, and all of the available grid capacity?

    Or you could make the same money by putting up a single smaller turbine, but only if you had the balls to see past your own greed.

  12. #12
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer III View Post
    http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=78804


    Depends if you lived next door



    So you made crap life choices. Does that mean you have a right to sell the skyline for a whole 3% of the profits while some absentee corporation takes millions out of the area, and all of the available grid capacity?

    Or you could make the same money by putting up a single smaller turbine, but only if you had the balls to see past your own greed.

    Just late to the SFP party and spent the money I had on my own turbines.

    Now will get new CAP area sub post reform and have my own turbines.

    Yes as owner I do have the right to 20 turbines just as you have to your historic sfp.

    And I see no SFP donation from you so no need for me to worry about your approval for 20 turbines.

    If you want grid buy it, I had to. Don't moan to me that you made a crap life choice

  13. #13
    Russell B
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Season of goodwill didn't last long lad's eh?

  14. #14
    how much
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    If you don't claim FIT are you not allowed to claim and then sell carbon credits ? It is I assume a bit more Hassle but all these big wind farms are not as I understand it claiming FIT but claiming and I assume in a lot of cases selling Carbon credits and used equipment and I assume not Fit approved equipment can be used for that I think.

  15. #15
    z'snotdead
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Quote Originally Posted by how much View Post
    If you don't claim FIT are you not allowed to claim and then sell carbon credits ? It is I assume a bit more Hassle but all these big wind farms are not as I understand it claiming FIT but claiming and I assume in a lot of cases selling Carbon credits and used equipment and I assume not Fit approved equipment can be used for that I think.
    What are carbon credits,what are they worth per kw. Are they similar to renewable obligation certs or rocs. A roc is worth 4p and 4 rocs per kw

  16. #16
    how much
    Guest

    Re: Are renewables worth it without FIT ?

    Sorry I have got carbon credits confused with roc's Carbon credits :lolk: similar idea I think but to incentivise energy saving rather then renewable generation.

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