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Thread: Are pesticides a good idea?

  1. #181
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyScale View Post
    That is a processed food and inactivity issue not a no pesticide issue. You are putting two and two and getting five. People don't get obese because a fresh chicken is a fiver they get obese becasue they eat excess or stuff which the body can't digest quickly.

    Your argument is probably better directed at the cumulative effects of coca cola, frosties, tv etc. than pesticides.
    The point is, and it's a very simple point so I'm sorry that you're finding it so hard to grasp, is that the argument that we need pesticides in order to feed the world is false. We need pesticides to support one particular model of agricultural production, but to think that this is the only possible way of producing food, is extremely narrow minded.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Clive Tee's Avatar
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    I've farmed to organic standards for 20+ years now and encountered so many zealots on both sides of the fence, these arguments always seem to end up as organic vs conventional
    But the world is not defined in black and white--its all shades of grey!

    It is obvious that pesticides have their place in agriculture, any farmer with half a brain will try to minimise their use because they are expensive and can have some side effects but they also mean that farmers can safe guard their crops (and livelihood) from pests that otherwise could wipe out entire harvests
    Best post so far.
    Clive Tee

  3. #183
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    The point is, and it's a very simple point so I'm sorry that you're finding it so hard to grasp, is that the argument that we need pesticides in order to feed the world is false. We need pesticides to support one particular model of agricultural production, but to think that this is the only possible way of producing food, is extremely narrow minded.
    But, on the flip side, is it also not narrow minded to state that pesticides are not needed in agriculture at all, when they're so widely used globally.
    throwing stones at greenhouses and all that.

  4. #184
    Senior Member b slicker's Avatar
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    The point is, and it's a very simple point so I'm sorry that you're finding it so hard to grasp, is that the argument that we need pesticides in order to feed the world is false. We need pesticides to support one particular model of agricultural production, but to think that this is the only possible way of producing food, is extremely narrow minded.
    The cost of machinery and diesel (or even bullock power) is such that the aim must be to produce a reasonably high output of produce/unit area of scarce land.

    In an endeavour to do this in an environmentally friendly way, can you enlighten us on how weeds pests and diseases can be controlled without resort to conventional pesticides.

  5. #185
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    The point is, and it's a very simple point so I'm sorry that you're finding it so hard to grasp, is that the argument that we need pesticides in order to feed the world is false. We need pesticides to support one particular model of agricultural production, but to think that this is the only possible way of producing food, is extremely narrow minded.
    I dont think anyone was suggesting that we have to have one particular model of food production. Most have said Organics has its place.... and for me its place is as a marketing tool for selling food to those that have the money to buy into something they percieve to be 'better' than standard food. Some will only drink mineral water because they percieve it to be doing something better than tap water... some will eat there own placenta for its percieved benefits as a super food, some wont eat pork because they percieve pigs to be dirty animals which must put them off, my friend at the weekend said she'll only eat chicken and fish for the percieved benefit in stress and welfare through and at the end of its life (fish would suffocated or be dragged around with a hook through its mouth, chickens would be crushed up and caught and put into crates, alot more stressful than my pigs which were happily looking round the abbatoir no different than they would in my buildings at home)

    First thing i notice in this argument is about economics... farming with pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics is the cheapest way to make the most food on a patch of land!
    IS THIS TRUE? Is organics a niche, elitist habit which cost alot more to produce... hence customers not buying it when it becomes too expensive and farmers pulling out and going conventional cause they cant afford to buy organic inputs. It certainly seems the case.
    If the eu commision made all the eu produce organic food only (hyperthetically of course!) would there be a substantial drop in food production at the end of the year? If so then the price of food, much like milk recently, would rise and this would affect the world price of food, pushing those in poorer countries into starvation. Is it moral for us to say the highest ideal to achieve in farming is to ban artificial inputs whilst those less well off are suffering and dying? Many people in this country dont buy organics because it is too expensive, i am one.

    Conventional farming is bad for wildlife and the natural habitat! IS THIS TRUE?
    Would you be able to tell much difference when walking on a conventional farm to a organic one? My farm is a livestock farm... i spot spray creeping thistles, anytime i'm moling or walking in a field and find a bell thistle i dig it out with my heel i dont spray them... i spray fields with roundup before ploughing and reseed (i reseed once every 12- 15-20 years so worth getting it clean) and last year we had some patches of creeping thistle which thrived in the wet weather so were spot sprayed with thistlex
    on the tractor. When i'm moling im forever finding worms, the weekend there was some weasels digging out moles in one field!, we have buzzards, lapwings, curlews, fieldfares, woodpeckers, kingfishers, herons, sparrows, little owls, barn owls, tawny owls, lapwings, bullfinches, dippers, oyster catchers, greenfinch, crows, rooks, jackdaws, blackbirds, robins, doves, wrens, chaffinch, thrushes mistle and song, many kestrels and sparrowhawks etc etc etc all of this despite never being organically registered? Would anyone say my farm has suffered due to me not being organic? I pressume every organic farm has all these species and many times more to prove the fact?

    Organic farmers dont use pesticides/herbicides because they are in some way damaging our health? IS THIS TRUE?
    If i spray my weeds using the staturatory guidlines on the label are the lambs which eat grass on my land damaging peoples health? Can we have some evidence to sort it out either way please.


  6. #186
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Person round here was always spraying something and he was organic?
    Now he has pulled out of ''Organic '' now- bloody hell they are spraying like no tommorrow???

  7. #187
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    The problem with this argument is that you have 2 tags. Organic vs Conventional. There are many conventional farmers who are near - organic I'm sure. There are many conventional farmers who go beyond (at least most of) the requirements to be organic also I'm sure.

    The conventional argument is usually that organic cannot feed the world so that's that. I'm not sure but I suspect that it could if done properly. Indeed, there are those who say that permaculture is way more productive than any agriculture.

    In truth, we will never get a situation where every farmer is organic so we'll never know, unless it is forced upon us in law. I do think that many farmers could do with looking back 100 years and seeing if there is anything that has been overlooked in the name of progress. Anything which actually was a lot better than what we do now.

  8. #188
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    I've farmed to organic standards for 20+ years now and encountered so many zealots on both sides of the fence, these arguments always seem to end up as organic vs conventional
    But the world is not defined in black and white--its all shades of grey!

    It is obvious that pesticides have their place in agriculture, any farmer with half a brain will try to minimise their use because they are expensive and can have some side effects but they also mean that farmers can safe guard their crops (and livelihood) from pests that otherwise could wipe out entire harvests
    The prevailing,default practice ,though, has become to sow seeds for all manner of crops dressed in systemic,broad-spectrum,residual pesticides every season regardless of any clear threat of infestation. This system is great for Bayer,Syngenta etc. but really bad for the overall insect population and everthing else up the food chain.
    I farm organically, but if my main crops were clearly threatened by a massive pest infestation,I would consider a pesticide spray and losing my accreditation.I would then have to think about a way to avoid such an event happening again. This has not yet occured on this farm in the last 30 odd years.

  9. #189
    Dave Applesquasher
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaliptrot View Post
    The prevailing,default practice ,though, has become to sow seeds for all manner of crops dressed in systemic,broad-spectrum,residual pesticides every season regardless of any clear threat of infestation. This system is great for Bayer,Syngenta etc. but really bad for the overall insect population and everthing else up the food chain.
    I farm organically, but if my main crops were clearly threatened by a massive pest infestation,I would consider a pesticide spray and losing my accreditation.I would then have to think about a way to avoid such an event happening again. This has not yet occured on this farm in the last 30 odd years.
    Give me 5 examples of this for non combinable crops, or if you prefer, tell me why it would be unfair for me to say "non combinable".
    I'm not trying to pick arguments with you, but you appear to be making sweeping statements not based on facts.

  10. #190
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher View Post
    Give me 5 examples of this for non combinable crops, or if you prefer, tell me why it would be unfair for me to say "non combinable".
    I'm not trying to pick arguments with you, but you appear to be making sweeping statements not based on facts.
    Well,maize,sunflower,cotton,wheat, barley etc,almonds,other nuts,OSR,rice,trees,potatoes,sugar beet,fruits,soya,legumes in general,greenhouse crops,garden plants,lawns,golf courses,,pot plants,( I'm sure I've missed some} are all routinely treated all over the world.
    Quite why you wanted 5 non-combinable crops I don't know.

  11. #191
    Dave Applesquasher
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quite why you listed combinable crops I don't know.
    I still say "The prevailing,default practice ,though, has become to sow seeds for all manner of crops dressed in systemic,broad-spectrum,residual pesticides every season regardless of any clear threat of infestation" is very much not true at all.
    FYI at least half of the non combinable crops you did manage to list are not even produced from seed.

    Thanks for your time but you shan't have any more of mine. I meant that in as polite a way as possible.

  12. #192
    Member Robigus's Avatar
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Yes.

  13. #193
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher View Post

    FYI at least half of the non combinable crops you did manage to list are not even produced from seed.

    Which ones?

  14. #194
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    Re: Are pesticides a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackson4 View Post
    I dont think anyone was suggesting that we have to have one particular model of food production. Most have said Organics has its place.... and for me its place is as a marketing tool for selling food to those that have the money to buy into something they percieve to be 'better' than standard food. Some will only drink mineral water because they percieve it to be doing something better than tap water... some will eat there own placenta for its percieved benefits as a super food, some wont eat pork because they percieve pigs to be dirty animals which must put them off, my friend at the weekend said she'll only eat chicken and fish for the percieved benefit in stress and welfare through and at the end of its life (fish would suffocated or be dragged around with a hook through its mouth, chickens would be crushed up and caught and put into crates, alot more stressful than my pigs which were happily looking round the abbatoir no different than they would in my buildings at home)

    First thing i notice in this argument is about economics... farming with pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics is the cheapest way to make the most food on a patch of land!
    IS THIS TRUE? Is organics a niche, elitist habit which cost alot more to produce... hence customers not buying it when it becomes too expensive and farmers pulling out and going conventional cause they cant afford to buy organic inputs. It certainly seems the case.
    If the eu commision made all the eu produce organic food only (hyperthetically of course!) would there be a substantial drop in food production at the end of the year? If so then the price of food, much like milk recently, would rise and this would affect the world price of food, pushing those in poorer countries into starvation. Is it moral for us to say the highest ideal to achieve in farming is to ban artificial inputs whilst those less well off are suffering and dying? Many people in this country dont buy organics because it is too expensive, i am one.

    Conventional farming is bad for wildlife and the natural habitat! IS THIS TRUE?
    Would you be able to tell much difference when walking on a conventional farm to a organic one? My farm is a livestock farm... i spot spray creeping thistles, anytime i'm moling or walking in a field and find a bell thistle i dig it out with my heel i dont spray them... i spray fields with roundup before ploughing and reseed (i reseed once every 12- 15-20 years so worth getting it clean) and last year we had some patches of creeping thistle which thrived in the wet weather so were spot sprayed with thistlex
    on the tractor. When i'm moling im forever finding worms, the weekend there was some weasels digging out moles in one field!, we have buzzards, lapwings, curlews, fieldfares, woodpeckers, kingfishers, herons, sparrows, little owls, barn owls, tawny owls, lapwings, bullfinches, dippers, oyster catchers, greenfinch, crows, rooks, jackdaws, blackbirds, robins, doves, wrens, chaffinch, thrushes mistle and song, many kestrels and sparrowhawks etc etc etc all of this despite never being organically registered? Would anyone say my farm has suffered due to me not being organic? I pressume every organic farm has all these species and many times more to prove the fact?

    Organic farmers dont use pesticides/herbicides because they are in some way damaging our health? IS THIS TRUE?
    If i spray my weeds using the staturatory guidlines on the label are the lambs which eat grass on my land damaging peoples health? Can we have some evidence to sort it out either way please.

    I really appreciate the questions you ask in the above,Jackson.

    I,and many other farmers, must ask the same as we walk over our land.

    When I farmed 'conventionally' I would use a herbicide in my barley after grass to kill off thistles etc.For a while I followed the then-current advice of worming lambs every month,especially for my pedigree Suffolks.I gave all my sheep 7 in 1 vaccine(now 12?).I would Vicon a spring dressing of Nitram,or 20/10/10.My cereal seed came ready dressed,we had to dip our sheep every year.
    So I was never a massive user of chemicals in my work. But it's more than that: hopefully,when farmers go organic it's not just for the payments or premiums.It really is satisfying to try and work out how to do a good job,produce decent crops,healthy animals,without using stuff you should handle with rubber gloves or a mask.

    I am something of a sceptic,by nature,and I really don't trust much of what our supply industries tell us.I hope this is not entirely a personal weakness.I think that to question the supposed benefits to our farming of most of the synthesised treatments is a healthy mind set.

    You,obviously,have to work it out for yourself.

    By the way,just found the right link to a nice tune about the alternative to the sweetness and light of all things organic-
    https://soundcloud.com/eriktricity/m...n-your-fucking
    Last edited by jaliptrot; 09-05-13 at 09:34 PM.

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