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Thread: Cut out in water troughs

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    Cut out in water troughs

    Hi All
    I'm new here but have been lurking for a while, I'm not actually a farmer but most of my friends are since moving to Withern Linc's which is a predominantly farming area. If you don't know farming you're gonna find it tough finding work round here

    I do a lot of work for my farming friends and have been asked to cut dirty great holes in 14 water troughs mostly concrete but a few are cast iron, this work has been insisted on by I believe Anglian Water and if not completed they'll cut us off just when the cattle have been put out to graze.
    I understand from reading associated paperwork that the reasoning for these cut out's is to lower the water level in the troughs and increase the distance between the ball valve inlet and the surface level of water in the troughs.

    Have any of you come across this and is this the only way we can satisfy the water companies? it seems it's going to make a right mess of the troughs

    I would welcome alternative suggestions or pictures of how you've overcome this problem assuming it's something that's affecting troughs across the country and not just here.

    Many thanks

    Brian.

    P.S. apologies if in the wrong section but I'll learn

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    raise the ball valves up instead of lowering water level, has the same result, that was what a few round here did and wessex water approved

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    You're lucky they told you that you could put a cut out in the trough, when i first encountered this 5-10 years ago they were saying all old troughs had to be replaced.

    Luckily most of the troughs around the yard were compliant and once i twigged what was going on i developed amnesia about some down the field.



    As for suggestions of an alternative to cutting your troughs, would it be possible to put in a header tank with the required air gap and feed your troughs from this? Could be quite simple in some circumstances but a plumbers nightmare in others.
    Water troughs are now supplied by our own borehole so no more problems.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    What is the point of the change? Does it actually affect water usuage?

    Dan

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by vinnie123 View Post
    raise the ball valves up instead of lowering water level, has the same result, that was what a few round here did and wessex water approved
    Hi and thanks for your reply, most of the trough are the "made in Lincolnshire" ones with the raised semi circular bit in the centre where the ball valve fits across [hope that makes sense], this is then covered by a semi circular concrete cover that just sits on top.
    There isn't really an easy way of raising the ball valve up as theres nothing to fix to and you'd need to fabricate different covers etc [but welcome pictures from others that have done this]

    Quote Originally Posted by RED BULL View Post
    You're lucky they told you that you could put a cut out in the trough, when i first encountered this 5-10 years ago they were saying all old troughs had to be replaced.

    Luckily most of the troughs around the yard were compliant and once i twigged what was going on i developed amnesia about some down the field.

    Thanks again for replying. Some how they seem to know about all my friends even though some are in obscure places, is it because they do the water supplies to the troughs in the first place?



    As for suggestions of an alternative to cutting your troughs, would it be possible to put in a header tank with the required air gap and feed your troughs from this? Could be quite simple in some circumstances but a plumbers nightmare in others.
    Water troughs are now supplied by our own borehole so no more problems.
    I've been a plumber for years but without seeing what you mean regarding header tanks I wouldn't know of how to do it easily without have to pay for a lot of fabrication, it would need framework supports to sit on top of troughs to support the header tanks etc unless I have my wires crossed here

    Quote Originally Posted by dan.taylor.1 View Post
    What is the point of the change? Does it actually affect water usuage?

    Dan
    Hi Dan
    It's something to do with contaminating the fresh water supply and nothing to do with usage, they're worried about any trough's "contaminated" water being able to come in contact with where the fresh water supply enters the trough [ball valve]. If the ball valve sticks and the trough fills the water level would end up touching where the fresh comes in and if germs could travel back up against the mains pressure you've contaminated the water supply.
    The cutouts they are demanding will mean it's impossible for the water level to get anywhere near the ball valves.
    We explored going down the fitting off non return valves in the pipework but they wouldn't except this, so far it's cut out's or cut off's

    This isn't unique to farming you will find it already in practice in all your homes, being an ex plumber and installing 100's of bathrooms [slight exaggeration]. That little ring on your shower rail where the shower hose passes through is there to prevent the shower head should you drop it coming into contact with the water in your shower tray [or bath if shower over bath]. The shower rail, length of shower hose etc is all supposed to be fitted following regulations that in no way can the shower head while running be in the "dirty" water in your tray or bath, there are strict guidelines for setting these up which as an installer you stick but who checks. I have been back to homes many times where customers have bought new longer shower hoses so the can wash the bath round and the shower heads sitting in the dirty water used to wash the bath

    Again if anyone has modified there troughs and it's been passed would love to see some pic's otherwise it's skill saw out and a lot of nice troughs ruined

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    It's all about an "alleged" syphoning back down the mains pipe. Just put a service box on top of the concrete and cast iron troughs that contains the ball valve. They don't look very pretty and you have to make sure that livestock don't knock them off by rubbing them. But it actually demonstrates to the water authority that it is better than dropping the water level in the trough since it will run over before it can get back down the pipe.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    There must be an one way valve type solution to this 'problem' surely.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    There must be an one way valve type solution to this 'problem' surely.
    You can get non-return valves such as these which would work within the existing pipework, they look expensive but not compared with the mess of hacking holes in stuff. Where are the water company suggesting you send the water that runs out of the holes?!
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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    we had this a few years ago from northumbrian water aswell not sure about you but i always thaught water ran down hill so how the hell is it going to contaminate supply by getting back UP the pipe

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Syphon principle, I'm sure it could happen if the ball valve can touch the water, given a somewhat inadequate supply pressure, if say several houses all run baths further down the line, the pressure at the trough could go negative for long enough to suck stuff up.
    Newer ball valves often have that upside down U on the top which must help.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Hi all

    Thanks for your contributions and I am replying but I think being a newbie my reply has to be checked out before adding to the thread, I answered the first three posts and 10 more have been added since so please bare this mind when reading my responses.

    Thanks everyone

    Brian [farmers friend, don't sound gay does it]

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    Senior Member Zetor's Avatar
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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthebuilder View Post
    we had this a few years ago from northumbrian water aswell not sure about you but i always thaught water ran down hill so how the hell is it going to contaminate supply by getting back UP the pipe
    Yes Northumbrian water have been a complete PITA about this they won't accept a non return valve.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetor View Post
    Yes Northumbrian water have been a complete PITA about this they won't accept a non return valve.
    Anglian water won't accept non return valves either

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    Senior Member Bobthebuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    Syphon principle, I'm sure it could happen if the ball valve can touch the water, given a somewhat inadequate supply pressure, if say several houses all run baths further down the line, the pressure at the trough could go negative for long enough to suck stuff up.
    Newer ball valves often have that upside down U on the top which must help.
    water level should be nowhere near the outlet of ball valve if set right

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthebuilder View Post
    water level should be nowhere near the outlet of ball valve if set right
    But heavy rainfall could bring the water level up to ball valve inlet or even a fault with the ball valve itself i.e. leaking and not discovered for a few days would create what the water boards are trying to prevent. Just seems sacrilege chopping good troughs up so I'm going to try and raise the ball valves up first on some brackets fitted to where the ball valve currently fit to troughs.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by brianjbox View Post
    I'm going to try and raise the ball valves up first on some brackets fitted to where the ball valve currently fit to troughs.

    I'm sure i heard long ago that someone makes these. Can't remember who but at a guess i'd say Dairy Spares.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Syphoning. It's possible, just possible, that if the mains are shut down and someone else on the system draws water and IF the water in the trough is up to the level of the ball valve that it can be syphoned back. Why don't they put one-way valves on their side of the meter (if there is one) if they are that bothered about it.

    And what would happen if Joe Public knew that there are lots of water mains that were/are asbestos pipes ? I can feel another Leveson enquiry coming on.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Possibly me just being thick as usual, but any syphoning will be minor, short lived and self limiting. If all of the variables happen and water is syphoned into the pipe it will drop the water level stopping the feed.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by RED BULL View Post
    I'm sure i heard long ago that someone makes these. Can't remember who but at a guess i'd say Dairy Spares.
    Is this what you mean?



    http://www.dairyspares.co.uk/dairy_products/42



    Quote Originally Posted by brianjbox View Post
    Anglian water won't accept non return valves either
    We got a letter from Anglian Water last July saying they'd be in touch to arrange a Plumbing Compliance Inspection.
    Something to do with Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations I'm guessing it must be to do with water safety/syphoning ... but he's never got back to us!

    Would hosepipes that could end up trailing on the floor, & in a puddle, be a 'problem' for this sort of thing?
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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrek View Post
    Possibly me just being thick as usual, but any syphoning will be minor, short lived and self limiting. If all of the variables happen and water is syphoned into the pipe it will drop the water level stopping the feed.
    Absolutely right but they do have to justify their jobs.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    If you can demonstrate that when the trough is full to overflowing then the mains outlet is above the water level there will not be a problem. Other way is to feed all the water troughs from a suitable compliant cistern which then needs large bore piping and low pressure ball valves at the trough.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Fit a header tank in a loft with a suitable air gap and tell them it all comes from that.

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by RED BULL View Post
    I'm sure i heard long ago that someone makes these. Can't remember who but at a guess i'd say Dairy Spares.
    Cheers for the heads up regarding this product, most of ours are on the flexible water pipes but guess we could use a stake or something, only worry with this product is the bit where it can twist off. Not all of the fields are attached to the farm and some are quite a few miles away, I would worry that they could be removed so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_TM View Post
    Is this what you mean?



    http://www.dairyspares.co.uk/dairy_products/42




    We got a letter from Anglian Water last July saying they'd be in touch to arrange a Plumbing Compliance Inspection.
    Something to do with Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations I'm guessing it must be to do with water safety/syphoning ... but he's never got back to us!

    Would hosepipes that could end up trailing on the floor, & in a puddle, be a 'problem' for this sort of thing?
    Thanks for the link, saved me having to search for something that I didn't know existed

    Anglian Water guy said to us that he will get round to all farms eventually as some in this area haven't heard from him yet, I do think it's only a matter of time.

    Hose pipes laying in any mess on the floor [especially round livestock] could create the same issue's I guess, bet they haven't thought of that yet or don't know what to do about it

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs


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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by brianjbox View Post
    Hose pipes laying in any mess on the floor [especially round livestock] could create the same issue's I guess, bet they haven't thought of that yet or don't know what to do about it

    Oh yes they have, they wanted me to cut the threaded part off taps in the dairy and parlour pit so a hose couldn't be fitted to them

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Here are the regs http://www.wras.co.uk/Regulations_Default.asp

    As a few have said just raise the service box so the ball valve is above the top of the trough, cutting holes in the side of the trough is just bonkers !!!

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    Thanks brilliant and I will show it to the farmer, anyone know a price?

    Quote Originally Posted by RED BULL View Post
    Oh yes they have, they wanted me to cut the threaded part off taps in the dairy and parlour pit so a hose couldn't be fitted to them
    Where will it all end

    Quote Originally Posted by happy hillbily View Post
    Here are the regs http://www.wras.co.uk/Regulations_Default.asp

    As a few have said just raise the service box so the ball valve is above the top of the trough, cutting holes in the side of the trough is just bonkers !!!
    This is the option I'll be looking at first

    Cheers all

    Brian

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Have they actually got any evidence that there has been contamination or are they just creating jobs for the boys like most providers/people in charge?!

    Dan

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...iscal-1.685271

    It can happen as was the case here a few years back. Some folk were pretty ill

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    Re: Cut out in water troughs

    Quote Originally Posted by brianjbox View Post
    Thanks brilliant and I will show it to the farmer, anyone know a price?





    The standard Jobe ball valves are quite dear compared to normal ones, about 40 quid IIRC. So i'd say the complete set up would be at least double that but that's only a guess.

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