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Thread: TB.....Again.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Phil's Avatar
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    TB.....Again.

    Following on from the various threads on the subject, and having spent far to long reading & replying to posts on the numerous articles on media sites, could we have a debate on how it would be best to go about tackling TB, and the huge overpopulation of Badgers in Britain, head on ?

    I will start the ball rolling by saying we need a combination of culling Badgers in heavily infected area's & Vaccinating Badgers where they are clean! (yes, I know...stating the obvious)

    And I would suggest that this could be achieved by a 3 way "coalition".

    Central Government can fund the trapping and testing of Badgers in all areas to establish which Badgers have to be culled & Which Badgers have to be vaccinated...that way the Government are seen to be impartial !

    Organisations such as The Badger Trust, RSPCA and The National Trust etc could fund the Vaccination program....they would therefore "not have blood on their hands" which would appease both their members & the Public.

    Leaving Farmers, The NFU & possibly the CLA to fund the culling. Farmers & the NFU would obviously bare the brunt of any public outcry...but there is nothing new in that as we are already judged as being blood thirsty wildlife murdering so & so's !!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Annual testing of all cattle.
    Pre movement testing from areas where there has been TB but on a logical area base, not just by Counties.

    Take Badgers off the protected list and reduce their numbers. There will still be plenty of Badgers but there will be a chance for many other species to survive.
    Kill all Badgers in an area where there is an outbreak or if people wish to vaccinate then they should pay, not the government.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Songsheet's Avatar
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Take Badgers off the protected List, all monies currently spent on vaccination, culling and annual testing stopped, to be re-invested in PCR sett tests, infected setts destroyed, setts with no positives left severely alone but monitored. I would then be prepared to pay for annual testing of my cattle if these ensures were in place.

    Vaccination of badgers isn't the way forward - cattle vaccination possibly if the vaccination is 90% plus effective, but I don't believe it will be.

  4. #4
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    [QUOTE=Songsheet;174917]Take Badgers off the protected List, all monies currently spent on vaccination, culling and annual testing stopped, to be re-invested in PCR sett tests, infected setts destroyed, setts with no positives left severely alone but monitored.


    I agree with the PCR test part, there would have to be some baiting with perhaps some coloured plastic pellets mixed in so any testing of dung could be identified to certain sets.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    +1 for Phil suggestions

    Badger vaccination is worth a try in Northern England . Cheshire northwards? May not work but has to be worth a try.

    Far more openness about TB status in an area. Should know if there is a local breakdown. Data base linked to ear tag codes ?

    I like the N.Z. system where each farm has a TB status code attached .
    C 5= clear for 5 years, buy one animal from a C2 farm and you drop to C2
    I = infected

    I would be C1

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Songsheet View Post
    Take Badgers off the protected List, all monies currently spent on vaccination, culling and annual testing stopped, to be re-invested in PCR sett tests, infected setts destroyed, setts with no positives left severely alone but monitored. I would then be prepared to pay for annual testing of my cattle if these ensures were in place.
    Songsheet, good suggestions, I agree with infected setts being destroyed to prevent reinfection, there would be a serious risk of reinfection if clean badgers colonised the empty setts.

    In the meantime I would like to see TB testing reduced to a maximum gap of two years and other animals brought into a more rigourous testing protocol. All Camelids to be subject to the same registration (eartagging or tattooing), movement restrictions and testing as cattle. Sheep, pig, camelid, deer, goat and horse to be subject to same testing/examination at abbatoirs. Random testing of fallen stock to check % infected of above animals. Compulsory notification and testing of suspicious symptoms in pets.

    All possible TB infections in humans to be tested for type.

    All badgers that are vaccinated to be microchipped. We will then know more about the efficacy of the vaccine over the next few years.

    Finally, and this is one of the most important points, NO RELEASE of badgers or foxes into the wild/country from the animal sanctuarys and RSPCA. (Again, all suspicious symptoms in animals to be reported) This would also apply to the removal of badgers to other areas by various groups. Heavy fines for any breaches.

    Just my thoughts over the last few months on how to try to clear the mess.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jade35 View Post
    All badgers that are vaccinated to be microchipped. We will then know more about the efficacy of the vaccine over the next few years.

    Finally, and this is one of the most important points, NO RELEASE of badgers or foxes into the wild/country from the animal sanctuarys and RSPCA. (Again, all suspicious symptoms in animals to be reported) This would also apply to the removal of badgers to other areas by various groups. Heavy fines for any breaches.

    Just my thoughts over the last few months on how to try to clear the mess.
    Micro chipping is a brilliant idea.

    stopping movement of badgers etc is essential and needs to be severely penalised on the same level as current legislation for interference.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Realistically - how possible is it to remove Badger from the list of protected species?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Phil's Avatar
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Some very good suggestions coming out of this.

    I particularly like the bit about clamping down hard on these groups that insist on releasing (moving) Badgers & Foxes.

    As for "how easy would it be to get the Badger Removed from the protected species list" - well if it was as easy & as straight forward as it was to put Badgers on the list ???
    But I'm afraid common sense & logic won't come in to it...and it will probably prove very difficult.

    That said - The Canada goose is now on the General license (for birds) and can be controlled in the same way as other pest species such as crows, rooks & pigeons etc!
    Foxes...Rats...Mink...squirrels etc are all controlled to prevent their populations having a serious impact on other native species of our Wildlife ! And Buzzards are now (nor before time) under the spotlight & there is talk of reducing their numbers !
    We have a huge & completely uncontrolled population of Badgers in Britain, that have for some time now been having a serious impact on the populations of other species of Wildlife (not to mention the sole destroying & horrific impact they have had on the lives of so many Livestock farmers & the financial burden on the Tax payer)...So why should the Badger be any different ?????

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Do we really need these 'experts' tramping round fields doing their testing?....could encourage allsorts under the pretense of testing

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    Senior Member Phil's Avatar
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_W View Post
    Do we really need these 'experts' tramping round fields doing their testing?....could encourage allsorts under the pretense of testing
    Good point !

  12. #12
    Dave Applesquasher
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Take badgers off the protected list and allow farmers to control them as they see fit.(ie.shoot them if they want to)
    Same rules as foxes and there's no shortage of them.
    Put a stop to all this government funded research on badgers and use a fraction of that money on policing badger baiting.
    Win win in my eyes.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    we have been shooting a golf course in Leicestershire for the last three years for rabbits, the odd couple of badgers we used to see has now turned into a little family of 8+ that we see every time we go out, as we shoot with nightvision we do not spook them so can get in very close as they are no where near as clever or as sly as mr fox they just do not seem to know we are there watching them so if they were removed from the protective list it could be a very fast decline in numbers not like foxy where you do need some field craft, on another course we shoot there is always several of them messing about, they mainly feed together when we watch them not very often do we see lone ones feeding

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    The bleating badgerists love to point out that TB rates in n Ireland are similar to southern Ireland, yet badgers are not culled in the north. I can't help thinking that there is a little unofficial activity of an evening in the north.
    Phils spot on with his ideas, also poss via pcr test to establish TB status of a sett, if the infected could be gassed, leaving the unaffected that seems a possible solution. Until you hear from the badgerists that no healthy badger can die.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurdlebunter View Post
    The bleating badgerists love to point out that TB rates in n Ireland are similar to southern Ireland, yet badgers are not culled in the north. I can't help thinking that there is a little unofficial activity of an evening in the north.
    Phils spot on with his ideas, also poss via pcr test to establish TB status of a sett, if the infected could be gassed, leaving the unaffected that seems a possible solution. Until you hear from the badgerists that no healthy badger can die.
    They are wrong. The usual claim is that TB in NI has also reduced without culling badgers. NI suffered an acute peak in bTB cases following on from the foot and mouth epidemic, during FMD NI suspended testing for 4 weeks, and culled over 50,000 cattle out of a population of 1.6million. It's highly likely that the increase in TB they experienced post FMD is down to increased movements of untested cattle during re stocking. (The Republic also suspended testing but only culled just under 1200 cattle, so it's far less likely that restocking would have had much influence on their TB incidences).If you take the anomalously high post FMD figures and compare them to today, then NI has indeed reduced TB, but this is not an objective measure of their relative success. The number of cases in NI is currently rising, and proportionally the number of cattle slaughtered due to TB in NI is over twice the proportion of cattle slaughtered due to TB in The Republic.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurdlebunter View Post
    Until you hear from the badgerists that no healthy badger can die.
    When PCR is mentioned, conversation stops. 'They' don't want to know health status of badgers and 'they' don't want ANY to die.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    When PCR is mentioned, conversation stops. 'They' don't want to know health status of badgers and 'they' don't want ANY to die.
    So where the flippin heck do you go from that position ? Has govt got the guts to carry out the cull?, personally I think the chances of the shooting cull succeeding is not great. It looks like a compromise desighned to fail to me. When the tech exists to test via PCR and ID infection that seems a far easier sell to an ill informed public.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurdlebunter View Post
    So where the flippin heck do you go from that position ? Has govt got the guts to carry out the cull?, personally I think the chances of the shooting cull succeeding is not great. It looks like a compromise desighned to fail to me. When the tech exists to test via PCR and ID infection that seems a far easier sell to an ill informed public.
    Here's one who seems to have a bit of a following:

    https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/steb1/public

    Scroll down to S commented on Michael Eavis throws support behind badger cull.
    24 Jun 2013 8:36am

    Put away any blunt instruments first

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Here's one who seems to have a bit of a following:

    https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/steb1/public

    Scroll down to S commented on Michael Eavis throws support behind badger cull.
    24 Jun 2013 8:36am

    Put away any blunt instruments first
    YE GODS !!, who are these people, how do they survive ?....truly depressing, and the sodding Internet has given them a voice.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    I see from the Guardian article in which Michael Eavis supports the cull , that ”Jeff Hayden of the Badger Trust Trust says they are providing a free badger vaccination service for landowners “.

    Don’t know whether this is genuine , or only for cull areas but if Badger Trusts are going to pay it is surely worth a try in “clean” areas. Give your badgers at least a LITTLE protection against bTB , before we end up in situation that clearly reigns in the S.W. where I suspect badger vaccination has no hope of working.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerP View Post
    I see from the Guardian article in which Michael Eavis supports the cull , that ”Jeff Hayden of the Badger Trust Trust says they are providing a free badger vaccination service for landowners “.

    Don’t know whether this is genuine , or only for cull areas but if Badger Trusts are going to pay it is surely worth a try in “clean” areas. Give your badgers at least a LITTLE protection against bTB , before we end up in situation that clearly reigns in the S.W. where I suspect badger vaccination has no hope of working.

    In some respects I'd agree that it would not do harm, but then again, trapping badgers to administer vaccine will stress and disturb them, given that the vaccine has a low efficacy rate, and that you will only vaccinate some of the badgers, i'm not convinced that you'd always get sufficient coverage to give even partial herd immunity, i'd be inclined to leave clean badgers alone, disturbing them could well do more harm than good.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Here's one who seems to have a bit of a following:

    https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/steb1/public

    Scroll down to S commented on Michael Eavis throws support behind badger cull.
    24 Jun 2013 8:36am

    Put away any blunt instruments first
    you'll note that on the Eavis article, that person twice produces links to support their argument that actually contradict their claims, they get very annoyed when this is pointed out to them.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Here's one who seems to have a bit of a following:

    https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/steb1/public

    Scroll down to S commented on Michael Eavis throws support behind badger cull.
    24 Jun 2013 8:36am

    Put away any blunt instruments first
    If you read any of the comments they seem to be very anti-countryside. At one point they even mention stopping air travel to save herring gulls! yes, the much endangered poor little blighters

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Dart badgers with dye and hormone to prevent fertility. No catching, minimal stress and no animal rights activists costing unaffordable amounts of money.

    Nothing killed but nothing breeds and after time this pool of infection will be gone. The tragic thing is that it is now in other species and getting increasingly difficult to eradicate.

    I can't believe that we allowed this to happen on our watch, our children and grandchildren will never forgive us for the damage this will do. I am ashamed to belong to this generation.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Here's one who seems to have a bit of a following:

    https://id.guardian.co.uk/profile/steb1/public


    Put away any blunt instruments first
    If you've got a black dog, this individual has one that will be blacker!
    To make matters worse, he alleges he knows all about farming having both a great grandfather and grandfather who were farmers , had considered a career as a gamekeeper but never followed it up, yet knows all about the subject.

    Latest attack against someone who dared to challenge his 'ex-spurt' knowledge for daring to mention gorse management. His knowledge of the subject is so intensive, he took the trouble to waffle on in great detail about the species differences, but when presented with other organisations recommendations for managing growth, resorted to telling the poster he was full of "bluster".

    The worrying thing is that he has something of a following of a similar mindset!

  26. #26
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Number one rule is that you can't vaccinate an animal that is already infected?

    I can't see anyone, much less the industry, nor tax payers, fronting the cash to vaccinate a load of wildlife.

    I have no idea why so much time and hot air has been wasted on bTB. It is pretty clear badgers suffer with the disease as much as anything else.

    Lift badgers off the protected list, and allow free culling, but ONLY in areas where there are actual dairy and cattle herds- whole tracts of Oxford or Cambridge then, would be left alone. No one wants to see the badger wiped out, but this issue has gone beyond the ridiculous.

    Either allow gassing or let farmers shoot them. Let the industry handle it and the cost to the tax payer will soon drop.

    It makes absolutely no sense to be destroying thousands of cattle annually, at great expense to the tax payer, when badgers proliferate like wild fire. The fact is clear to see, the number I see dead on the side of the road in my area on my travels is insane.

    As for the Guardian forum, anyone up for a forum-wide invasion, I quite fancy a chance to wind up some folk...

  27. #27
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Number one rule is that you can't vaccinate an animal that is already infected?

    I can't see anyone, much less the industry, nor tax payers, fronting the cash to vaccinate a load of wildlife.

    I have no idea why so much time and hot air has been wasted on bTB. It is pretty clear badgers suffer with the disease as much as anything else.

    Lift badgers off the protected list, and allow free culling, but ONLY in areas where there are actual dairy and cattle herds- whole tracts of Oxford or Cambridge then, would be left alone. No one wants to see the badger wiped out, but this issue has gone beyond the ridiculous.

    Either allow gassing or let farmers shoot them. Let the industry handle it and the cost to the tax payer will soon drop.

    It makes absolutely no sense to be destroying thousands of cattle annually, at great expense to the tax payer, when badgers proliferate like wild fire. The fact is clear to see, the number I see dead on the side of the road in my area on my travels is insane.

    As for the Guardian forum, anyone up for a forum-wide invasion, I quite fancy a chance to wind up some folk...

    Now now Ollie play nicely with the other children
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Do not forget when advocating the use of vaccines for badgers, that this vaccine, BCG is of such poor efficacy that the government does not consider it worth giving to the human population.
    it is of course the same vaccine,which is administered to humans, badgers and some would advocate giving to cattle.
    the real problem with it though, is that an animal vaccinated, will show a positive response to tb infection if it has been successfully vaccinated, or if the vaccine has failed and they are now infected.
    further the vaccine has no effect on an animal which is already infected.
    But the real killer for BCG is the vaccine is only 30 - 40 per cent efficient in preventing disease.
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  29. #29
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    We need to take the Guardian folk out of it as far as this forum goes, it just stirs up hatred and acrimony and many here either can't cope with it or use it with glee. Ignore their views as they ignore ours. There is no point in expecting any kind of understanding between the tribes. Maybe. There are many farmers who are pretty sure that they know what the answer is and that it is to whack out old Brock. There may be a whole load of truth on various levels in that. There may be some mileage in vaccination and farmers are not the folk to decide on that. It's science and most of us have a pasty for a brain. Or is that just me?

    What exasperates me about this whole thing is the level of conflict it generates. I may own land in Devon next year and the cull may come to me. I know I have sets on my potential land. Having always kept my own counsel and being of free mind, I wonder where I should place myself on this. I won't tow the line. That's the easy way. I won't be cowed or put upon, whatever the cost. I have friends from childhood who are farmers. I am lucky enough to have friends from the dark side too. Hmmmm. More reading for me to do. The truth is out there. Apparently.

  30. #30
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Do not forget when advocating the use of vaccines for badgers, that this vaccine, BCG is of such poor efficacy that the government does not consider it worth giving to the human population.
    it is of course the same vaccine,which is administered to humans, badgers and some would advocate giving to cattle.
    the real problem with it though, is that an animal vaccinated, will show a positive response to tb infection if it has been successfully vaccinated, or if the vaccine has failed and they are now infected.
    further the vaccine has no effect on an animal which is already infected.
    But the real killer for BCG is the vaccine is only 30 - 40 per cent efficient in preventing disease.
    Isn't 30-40 percent a pretty big win? It's not a cure all, kill all solution but it's degrading the threat, surely?

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