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Thread: TB.....Again.

  1. #91
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    [QUOTE=Joyce;250193]"Looking back, Husband said he learned that TB is a very difficult disease to control and in his opinion, was spread on the back of a stock truck."

    While Iím sure that is true in some cases, and great care and caution is obviously needed moving cattle, it dose not explain the slow progressive spread of the High Risk area, like a stain across the map of England and Wales, only over or under the hedge spread can explain this. Clearly more detailed work mapping the spread of endemic areas is needed, and hopefully is already being done.

    Movements on a lorry are not the key to the problem. ( In my opinion)

  3. #93
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    [QUOTE=FarmerP;250206]
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    "Looking back, Husband said he learned that TB is a very difficult disease to control and in his opinion, was spread on the back of a stock truck."

    While Iím sure that is true in some cases, and great care and caution is obviously needed moving cattle, it dose not explain the slow progressive spread of the High Risk area, like a stain across the map of England and Wales, only over or under the hedge spread can explain this. Clearly more detailed work mapping the spread of endemic areas is needed, and hopefully is already being done.

    Movements on a lorry are not the key to the problem. ( In my opinion)
    Every confirmed case of zTuberculosis in cattle, and now cats, alpacas, sheep, goats etc., is strain typed and mapped by VLA. They then produced this data in map form. I understand that this lifetime's work has now passed to FERA, which is disappointing. (As in a berluddy disgrace)

    If an animal (any animal) has TB when it clambers aboard 4 wheels, then it is unlikely to be cured on the journey. The point is that with regular test / slaughter of cattle (if not alpacas etc.) that strain has not spread or become entrenched in wildlife. TB is endemic in British badgers, even those in so called 'clean' areas, so if they are stressed, over populated or moved, then a new strain is likely to pop up. Or a variation in a known strain known as VNTR (Variable Number Tandem Repeats) VLA 9 is distinguished by this method in four separate areas of GB, each geographically unique.

    The strain or spoligotypes are clearly defined patches of about 12 out of almost 60 known. They've just spread out as infected badger control ceased in 1997.

    Chief Scientist, Prof. Ian Boyd described them as 'regional accents' here:

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...o-find-us.html

    And the spread across the country can be tracked here:

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/a-picture-tells-1000-words_20.html




  4. #94
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Out of interest, is it easily passed to dogs as well? I hear cats mentioned a lot.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Out of interest, is it easily passed to dogs as well? I hear cats mentioned a lot.
    No ? but donít take my word for it , try-

    http://www.bovinetb.info/docs/review...-programme.pdf

    450 pages of Defra bTB research up to 2006. Try projects SE 3009 and 3010 for your answer. Risk from dogs and foxes seams very low compared to badgers and perhaps deer.
    (page 324 to 343 )

    But donít rule out any mammal in high risk areas , They / we can all catch bTB given a big enough dose.

    I canít find current defra research on the new Yougov / defra web site. I canít find anything on the Yougov website!

  6. #96
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Out of interest, is it easily passed to dogs as well? I hear cats mentioned a lot.
    Yes.

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2009/...-official.html

    And in Cornwall, a lady, her child and her (dead) labrador were all infected with the same spoligotype. Badgers inhabited the bottom of her garden and she had also 'rescued' a road casualty..

    We find exposure to the bacteria (not necessarily active disease) in cattle, because we look for it. All mammals are susceptible and many have been found with 'badger' TB..

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Thanks. Let's hope we don't get to the day where you go down with it and they turn up to take your dogs as well.

  8. #98
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Thanks. Let's hope we don't get to the day where you go down with it and they turn up to take your dogs as well.
    Whereas when Animal Health get a case of confirmed zTuberculosis in an animal, they have to inform Public Health England, who then may offer screening to owners or contacts, that is a one way street.
    When a person is diagnosed, PHE now do their own strain typing and do not, as a general rule share that information with the team at VLA. So no traces, no contacts and no index case.

    I'm not aware of family pets or companion mammals even being considered as sources. The HPA / PHE risk assessment sheet is straight out of the 1940s text book, listing only 'unpasteurised milk, foreign travel (especially Asia), inner city drug shelters and homeless areas' as possible sources.

    So the human victims of badger infected alpacas, cats and other diseased animal contacts, have to draw their own risk box.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I would suspect they would say that the cattle are going to be killed anyway whereas Brock will scamper around until he's 93 and then curl up and die in a sunny glade with his friends and family around him. He's never going to be so ill that he staggers in front of a truck and gets smeared halfway up the A38. I'm sure I will now be accused of sharing that few so before that happens, I don't. I just read it in the Guardian whilst sipping a Latte in my sustainable bamboo octagon chair or whatever it was.
    No, no, no!
    If you're reading the Guardian, then surely you'll have noted that the roadside kills are in fact illegally shot badgers dumped there by us farmers!

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by midtown View Post
    No, no, no!
    If you're reading the Guardian, then surely you'll have noted that the roadside kills are in fact illegally shot badgers dumped there by us farmers!
    I did read the Guardian once at a mate's house. It was.......enlightening. Last time I'll bother I think.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I did read the Guardian once at a mate's house. It was.......enlightening. Last time I'll bother I think.
    No go back an try an larn em sumit or at least have some sport

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    No go back an try an larn em sumit
    ... there is a useful guide to the terminology at http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2014/...nti-speke.html

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    It will be very interesting to compare the effect on cattle bTB of action in the Welsh IAA areas , including badger vaccination, with the effect of the two pilot culls of badgers, when these figures finally emerge.
    I am pleased to see Wales is to do a national survey of TB in badgers , it's time DEFRA did similar, at very least for the TRUE edge areas .

    The Edge area of Cheshire is now on a 6 month TB test interval ( to replace radial testing ? ), the High risk part of Cheshire remains on annual testing.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Is that anywhere near enough?
    And don't they need doing annually?
    And does it work if they already have it?
    I suspect these are questions which officialdom will not willingly answer.
    They might also like to say how much it costs - we seem to get plenty of big numbers about the cost of shooting them - and policing the protesters.

  16. #106
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    So they have vaccinated 1,300 Badgers this year, with the total number vaccinated over the last 3 years now 4,000.

    1. What size area is this trial covering ?

    2. How many Badgers are there in the area ?

    3. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL BADGER POPULATION IN THAT AREA HAVE BEEN VACCINATED ???

    Until people answer these questions & also give us details of the actual costs involved with vaccinating wild Badgers....we are none the wiser, are we !

  17. #107
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    And does it work if they already have it?
    NO. It can make matters worse.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    I suppose the logic is that a comprehensive vaccination program has worked in humans to a huge extent. The difference being that we have a census and badgers don't. Although you could probably also argue that a lot more humans who had fallen out of society (tramps etc.) would be more like to have carried TB, though perhaps also less likely to congregate with 'clean' humans.

    It's going to be a long time before we know the results of either solution in full and that does depend on the appropriate information being given out. I suspect that as usual the best answer is somewhere in the middle but that involves both culling and vaccination which is not going to please either 'side' it seems. What would be good is if the politics could be removed and the people who know what they are talking about were allowed to get on with the job.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Vaccination for any disease relies upon the recipient having a good and healthy immune system and not being already infected with the disease at the outset.

    As such, children are given the TB vaccine in school, but they are tested (skin test, not all that dissimilar in idea from the cattle one) first to see if they already have it.

    That said, it is no good to assume that because you were vaccinated as a child, you are totally immune from said disease in later life. That is not the case, and it can be very virulent where people have emigrated to other countries where it is more prevalent, or where people adopt a lifestyle which comprises their diet, general health and thus their immune systems, hence why people carrying HIV become prime targets for the disease, their immune system becomes comprised and they subsequently have no defence against it, regardless of their vaccination status.

    Regarding badgers, we don't know how many of them have the diease and so short of live capturing the lot of them, doing some kind of rapid diagnostic test whilst you are stood there with them in a cage at your feet, you won't know whether the animal should be vaccinated or euthanised on the spot.

    Interestingly there is some debate in the vet world about TB in Alpacas- if a vet examined an animal which presented with symptoms which could infer it had serious TB, what do you do, euthanise it there and then, and if so, do you dare do a post-mortem on farm given the risk or are VLA etc who aren't going to be all that keen themselves?

    Once you get a few cases in peoples pets, and perhaps in the odd person who was keeping said pets, it will be in the national news and you'll see public opinion turn against badgers in a heartbeat. Few people understand the risk to human health posed by badger carcasses, or even the humble hedgehog as a potential source of TB (not to mention the other creepy crawlies they tend to carry around).

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Just a thought.How are the badgers that have been vaccinated identified?Are they being micro chipped as well because otherwise how do you identify those that have already been done?

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Vaccination for any disease relies upon the recipient having a good and healthy immune system and not being already infected with the disease at the outset.

    As such, children are given the TB vaccine in school, but they are tested (skin test, not all that dissimilar in idea from the cattle one) first to see if they already have it.

    That said, it is no good to assume that because you were vaccinated as a child, you are totally immune from said disease in later life. That is not the case, and it can be very virulent where people have emigrated to other countries where it is more prevalent, or where people adopt a lifestyle which comprises their diet, general health and thus their immune systems, hence why people carrying HIV become prime targets for the disease, their immune system becomes comprised and they subsequently have no defence against it, regardless of their vaccination status.

    Regarding badgers, we don't know how many of them have the diease and so short of live capturing the lot of them, doing some kind of rapid diagnostic test whilst you are stood there with them in a cage at your feet, you won't know whether the animal should be vaccinated or euthanised on the spot.

    Interestingly there is some debate in the vet world about TB in Alpacas- if a vet examined an animal which presented with symptoms which could infer it had serious TB, what do you do, euthanise it there and then, and if so, do you dare do a post-mortem on farm given the risk or are VLA etc who aren't going to be all that keen themselves?

    Once you get a few cases in peoples pets, and perhaps in the odd person who was keeping said pets, it will be in the national news and you'll see public opinion turn against badgers in a heartbeat. Few people understand the risk to human health posed by badger carcasses, or even the humble hedgehog as a potential source of TB (not to mention the other creepy crawlies they tend to carry around).
    The BCG vaccine has not been given to children for many years now due to the fact that it is so ineffectual.
    the vaccine is reckoned to offer at best 40% protection , this is not enough to give herd immunity.
    the level of protection drops as the years pass and it is important to remember that you are not immuse.
    the vaccine did offer a limited protection when the disease was common in the population, it also revealed the level of the disease in the country as a whole due to the initial test
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    , it also revealed the level of the disease in the country as a whole due to the initial test
    Perhaps that was the point of the exercise

    8 years ago babies in London were being vaccinated, don't know if they still are.

  23. #113
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Babies of Asian origin are still getting vaccinated. Not just in London.

  24. #114
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmjl View Post
    Just a thought.How are the badgers that have been vaccinated identified?Are they being micro chipped as well because otherwise how do you identify those that have already been done?
    In these play areas, badgers are neither counted, screened for existing disease nor identified beyond a squirt of sheep raddle. They are indiscriminately cage trapped (traps allowed for two nights only) and if caught, jabbed.

    Defra refuse to produce stats for cattle breakdowns separately for any of these areas (vaccinate or pilot culls of badgers.)

    But they do say for vaccination, that this would be 'quite wrong', as the object of the exercise is to 'get farmers to accept the concept of vaccination' not any possible result of it. The actual words Defra use are 'Pump Priming' us, to achieve this.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Perhaps that was the point of the exercise

    8 years ago babies in London were being vaccinated, don't know if they still are.
    The BCG programme was scrapped in 2005
    Only people in households where a member has the disease are they vaccinating and health workers who are in close contact.
    At the end of the programme it was estimated that 100,000 vaccinations were resulting in one person not contracting the disease
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    Post Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    The BCG vaccine has not been given to children for many years now due to the fact that it is so ineffectual.
    the vaccine is reckoned to offer at best 40% protection , this is not enough to give herd immunity.
    the level of protection drops as the years pass and it is important to remember that you are not immuse.
    the vaccine did offer a limited protection when the disease was common in the population, it also revealed the level of the disease in the country as a whole due to the initial test
    The BCG vaccine was tested on me as a baby. When we went to India about 10 years later, I was tested and found to still be 'protected'. When we returned a few years later, I was tested again for some reason, and the 'protection' had disappeared.
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    I was just reading through some old copies of "Gamekeeper & Countryside " magazine for 1982 & in the Veterinary Viewpoint column, there was a section on "Cattle TB & Badgers".
    I quote:-
    "Throughout the south west about nine percent of badgers examined proved to have tuberculosis, but in some Devon parishes, where extensive outbreaks occurred in cattle, the levels of infection in the badgers was 24 per cent." (My bold)

    There was also a quote from the " Journal of Hygiene", giving figures in the Cotswolds of 14 out of 56 badgers examined found to be infected. (P.A. Barrow & J Gallaher Journal of Hygiene (1981) 86 237.

    That there was this level of concern in veterinary & agricultural circles some 32 years ago, it is surprising that no serious action was planned to address the problems.
    Presumably the situation was even worse in the 10 years before the protection Act, which, in the light of this information, seems to have been complete folly!

  28. #118
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    Re: TB.....Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by pycoed View Post
    I was just reading through some old copies of "Gamekeeper & Countryside " magazine for 1982 & in the Veterinary Viewpoint column, there was a section on "Cattle TB & Badgers".
    I quote:-
    "Throughout the south west about nine percent of badgers examined proved to have tuberculosis, but in some Devon parishes, where extensive outbreaks occurred in cattle, the levels of infection in the badgers was 24 per cent." (My bold)

    There was also a quote from the " Journal of Hygiene", giving figures in the Cotswolds of 14 out of 56 badgers examined found to be infected. (P.A. Barrow & J Gallagher Journal of Hygiene (1981) 86 237.

    That there was this level of concern in veterinary & agricultural circles some 32 years ago, it is surprising that no serious action was planned to address the problems.
    Presumably the situation was even worse in the 10 years before the protection Act, which, in the light of this information, seems to have been complete folly!
    The infection rate has risen as the population has expanded. In the 2008 - 2010 vaccination trial, which assessed the 'Elf n'Safety of BCG jabbed into pre screened badgers, 43 per cent were rejected as having antibodies or culture positive to zTuberculosis.
    I believe that figure has now been increased to 53 per cent.

    In the last badger clearances in response to disease (1997), the highest recorded in culled, pm'd badgers was over 70 per cent infected in Broadway, Worcs.

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    [QUOTE=matthew;252380]
    Defra refuse to produce stats for cattle breakdowns separately for any of these areas (vaccinate or pilot culls of badgers.)

    There appears to be a DEFRA project in place to monitor the effect of badger culls on cattle bTB, but the project is not due to end until 2018. I have no idea if interim reports will come out. But I would hope so !
    SE3131
    Developing a surveillance system to report TB in cattle herds exposed to badger control in England .

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    Re: TB.....Again.

    PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS SURVEY

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