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Thread: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

  1. #1
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    Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    I am at the point of applying for permission to put up a sizable turbine, an Endurance. does anyone know of any make of turbine, size etc that has been a complete right off as far as output, reliability etc? Or have they all been a success?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Endurance seems very popular with several gone up around here in the last year. No turbine is perfect and the installer is as important as the turbine. Crap installer = problems from the start.
    Most of the really poor (small) turbines have disappeared off the MCS list or never got on there.

    It is essential to go and see an example of the turbine model you have chosen - that way you can talk to an owner and see if you (and your wife) can actually live with it before you go down the long and frustrating route of planning and finance. Might be a good idea to get your neighbours on board as well!!!!

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    It is essential to go and see an example of the turbine model you have chosen - that way you can talk to an owner and see if you (and your wife) can actually live with it before you go down the long and frustrating route of planning and finance. Might be a good idea to get your neighbours on board as well!!!![/QUOTE]

    +1

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Also look what happened with Proven in the twilight zone before buy out?
    We who had them, had no warranty, resellers left them for other brands, all be it different issues also, we were on our own, and sod you veiws.
    What happens when others may and will go bang, with your nice and shiny 300k turbine?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGT View Post
    Also look what happened with Proven in the twilight zone before buy out?
    We who had them, had no warranty, resellers left them for other brands, all be it different issues also, we were on our own, and sod you veiws.
    What happens when others may and will go bang, with your nice and shiny 300k turbine?
    Well what did happen then, did you get through that period successfully?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Well warranty was not worth paper wrote on.
    Seller went with another firm so shafted there.
    Got good man to service it who use to be agent, so ok there.
    And Kingspan bought / took over Proven, so parts available now from them, and other sources?
    But was worry over those 4 years but ok now.
    Just try and look at these points and think what if these happened with your chosen Turbine?
    Whats favor of the month now may not be in say 2 yrs???

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Which endurance are you going for50 kw or 225 kw

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    I regret it every time I see one of the bloody things.prefer solar panels that can at least be hidden.
    nick........

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    There are loads of them all over the place broken down so yes I would say some will be regretting.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Which endurance are you going for50 kw or 225 kw
    225, but I just dislike the whole process of going about turbines, some of it feels wrong.
    The cost of getting permission in the first place through an agent seems just too high, 5 to 10 k being mentioned, why can't I do it myself? endurance for example seem to want to deal only through a dealer network so getting technical info is difficult as the dealers won't give it away because they want to do the whole thing for you, but at a price that is more related to what the thing might earn than what anything actually costs. And dealers are fine, I am no stranger to them just upping sticks and buggering off as Tim Gibson has done with Lely robots, leaving me not quite but nearly high and dry. Ongoing service charges are rated at 5k a year, my robot costs less than that and it is working in shit and producing food! having had a look inside a 225 turbine head at a show I was struck at how little there is about them, a propeller, shaft with 2 bearings and a disc brake and the electrical box of tricks at the end, where is the cost? I certainly can't see 450k worth and please don't tell me that there is nothing in them cos I can't see 200k worth of cost. There is nothing new about propellors and generators FFS! Ideally I would like to see a locally built and serviced machine rather than these sprung up over night companies, just so we could deal direct and see the whites of their eyes.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    I'm with you there Wastedyears.
    Turbines seem ridiculously over priced. Take my Gaia, the year before the FITs you could buy one and have it installed for 25K, met a chap who did just that. Then FITs came in and the turbine was 50K in the UK, but in the USA you could get one for $50K. Priced to be an economical return against the subsidy not priced to cover the build + reasonable profit margin. Endurance will be the same.
    Oh, and I did the planning all myself, just paid someone for the bat survey. However, now I'm told that the planners are only accepting ZTVs from "professionals" which includes larger turbine sellers with absolutely no professional qualifications (in ZTV). How about PV?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    I would go for PV windylamb but on the farm where I use the electric I am a tenant with only so many years left, we have bought some land that we may build on but we can't take the PV with us and retain the fits. this forces us more or less to go for as big a turbine as we can because as I see it the bigger ones are the ones that stack up money wise.
    By the way after speaking to local planning people today (very helpful actually) we need to do a noise survey which can be done by a local company quite reasonably but I need the manufacturers noise data. Does anyone know if endurance give this kind of data out?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Find an endurance turbine, and get a maplin sound measuring device?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedyears View Post
    I would go for PV windylamb but on the farm where I use the electric I am a tenant with only so many years left, we have bought some land that we may build on but we can't take the PV with us and retain the fits. this forces us more or less to go for as big a turbine as we can because as I see it the bigger ones are the ones that stack up money wise.
    By the way after speaking to local planning people today (very helpful actually) we need to do a noise survey which can be done by a local company quite reasonably but I need the manufacturers noise data. Does anyone know if endurance give this kind of data out?
    Would've thought that sort of data would be freely available from Endurance. Have any 225s actually been made yet? The Norwin that it's based on will have noise data available. You can buy the Endurance from lots of different parties so it would be odd if any middleman refused you noise data as you would just need to threaten to go elsewhere!

    Any company doing a noise report on your behalf should be able to obtain the necessary data on your behalf anyway. And have you considered putting in a generic application? Way too many people putting in turbine specific applications, fine til the company goes bust or fails to even start production. And that's not even mentioning whether the bank will fund a particular make! I'm supervising an app for my in-laws, giving tip height and tower height only so that we have the option of Turbowinds, Endurance, WTN.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Our Planning Authority will not accept generic applications - "as each turbine is different, each turbine needs it's own application" - this is especially important regarding noise data!
    Noise data will be available for any given turbine (otherwise they wouldn't sell any) but that data may or may not be of sufficient quality to satisfy the Planners. Then you need the data for your locality = background noise survey. Noise reports are not something you can do yourself (unless you are professionally qualified). I've seen noise reports done by some larger installers and, quite frankly, they are meaningless rubbish and obviously written by someone who has no knowledge of acoustics. So if you did buy a Sound Level Meter (SLM) from Maplin it's wasted money. The SLM used for my noise survey cost 15K new, so its not something you can play at.

    Noise is probably the easiest part of the planning process to get wrong and if the Planners have asked for a survey, then they already think that it may be a problem. Spend your money wisely and ONLY employ a noise consultant who has experience of wind turbine noise and who can show you some previous reports - otherwise just sit down and burn tenners! If the installer is doing the planning make sure they get a proper noise consultant - if they don't then that's not an installer I would want anyway.

    The thing to remember with turbine noise is that if you do get complaints from neighbours, the Planners will require you to prove compliance by way of measurements which is incredibly difficult and expensive (depending on the actual planning condition). The Environmental Health Department may also get involved etc etc so it's by far better to satisfy yourself, the neighbours and the Planners that the turbine ain't going to be a problem before you start. Just saying it ain't going to be an issue isn't really sufficient and that's effectively what some of the installer reports say. I know a few owners who's partners regret the proximity of their turbine to the farm house!!

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by windylamb View Post
    Our Planning Authority will not accept generic applications - "as each turbine is different, each turbine needs it's own application" - this is especially important regarding noise data!
    Noise data will be available for any given turbine (otherwise they wouldn't sell any) but that data may or may not be of sufficient quality to satisfy the Planners. Then you need the data for your locality = background noise survey. Noise reports are not something you can do yourself (unless you are professionally qualified). I've seen noise reports done by some larger installers and, quite frankly, they are meaningless rubbish and obviously written by someone who has no knowledge of acoustics. So if you did buy a Sound Level Meter (SLM) from Maplin it's wasted money. The SLM used for my noise survey cost 15K new, so its not something you can play at.

    Noise is probably the easiest part of the planning process to get wrong and if the Planners have asked for a survey, then they already think that it may be a problem. Spend your money wisely and ONLY employ a noise consultant who has experience of wind turbine noise and who can show you some previous reports - otherwise just sit down and burn tenners! If the installer is doing the planning make sure they get a proper noise consultant - if they don't then that's not an installer I would want anyway.

    The thing to remember with turbine noise is that if you do get complaints from neighbours, the Planners will require you to prove compliance by way of measurements which is incredibly difficult and expensive (depending on the actual planning condition). The Environmental Health Department may also get involved etc etc so it's by far better to satisfy yourself, the neighbours and the Planners that the turbine ain't going to be a problem before you start. Just saying it ain't going to be an issue isn't really sufficient and that's effectively what some of the installer reports say. I know a few owners who's partners regret the proximity of their turbine to the farm house!!
    Fully agree with that.

    For our application (approved at appeal) we had a noise report done by an acoustic consultant. This was requested by the planners during planning. The report was done on the basis of the Powerwind and EWT 500s. We're actually going for an Enercon now........... This is exactly what I mean about specific turbines. Where are Powerwind now?!! But all noise reports and studies are done on the basis of prediction in any case.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Fully agree with that.

    For our application (approved at appeal) we had a noise report done by an acoustic consultant. This was requested by the planners during planning. The report was done on the basis of the Powerwind and EWT 500s. We're actually going for an Enercon now........... This is exactly what I mean about specific turbines. Where are Powerwind now?!! But all noise reports and studies are done on the basis of prediction in any case.
    Powerwind have moved to India!! http://www.powerwind.co.in/powerwind-5660.html

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Yes, noise reports are done as noise predictions but no good predicting the noise from an Enercon if you're putting up an EWT. It's propably OK if you are well under the "limit" set by planning but if you're not then you just need a persistent compliant and you might find you're taking the thing down - it has happened.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Fully agree with that.

    For our application (approved at appeal) we had a noise report done by an acoustic consultant. This was requested by the planners during planning. The report was done on the basis of the Powerwind and EWT 500s. We're actually going for an Enercon now........... This is exactly what I mean about specific turbines. Where are Powerwind now?!! But all noise reports and studies are done on the basis of prediction in any case.
    Was the report for the EWT 500 done by the experts expensive, and did it give different findings to the manufactures paperwork, was it also done at different distances and wind directions etc?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGT View Post
    Was the report for the EWT 500 done by the experts expensive, and did it give different findings to the manufactures paperwork, was it also done at different distances and wind directions etc?
    Manufacturers' paperwork isn't the same thing as what's in a noise assessment. The report was done on the basis of the nearest uninvolved dwelling, and also our own house. Wind direction and speed are assumed to be worst combinations. No point having a report saying some of the time it'll be okish! Quite surprised it was only 250.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Do you think it refelected in good or bad light, as I guess some are louder than others?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    These did our noise assessment

    Philip Dunbavin Acoustics Ltd.
    Alder House Willow Tree Park Booths Lane Lymm Cheshire WA13 0GH
    Tel: 01925 759380 Fax: 01925 759320 www.pdaltd.com

    IIRC it was less than 1500 - We had another quote of over 5k.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Manufacturers' paperwork isn't the same thing as what's in a noise assessment. The report was done on the basis of the nearest uninvolved dwelling, and also our own house. Wind direction and speed are assumed to be worst combinations. No point having a report saying some of the time it'll be okish! Quite surprised it was only 250.
    Hi Dave, any chance of a [pm of the company that did your noise report? I contacted a firm that said about 1k , I am near Penrith BTW. PS how do you get the time to play in your band and put up turbines?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    That's cheap Dave. 250 must be just a report from a computer model using figures from the manufacture and a map of your location, no need for background noise measurements? So they knew straight away that it's not going to be anywhere near the planners limits, just needed to reassure them?.

    A Noise Assessment ,in the strict sense, is a time consuming thing to do and requires extensive field measurements in your location (so that probably accounts for the 5K quote). If the planners just want verification that noise isn't an issue (because the nearest house is going to be along way away) then often the manufacturers data is sufficient. If it's considered that noise is likely to be a problem - that's when you need to start getting background noise data for your location and the cost starts going up. Someone who knows his stuff can see straight away (from the turbine to house distance) whether you're going to be in trouble and then you don't need to waste money flogging a dead horse. The marginal cases are where the money is spent and if it's marginal then you will piss your neighbours off without any doubt.
    Golden rule; you should live nearer to your turbine than your neighbours!

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedyears View Post
    Hi Dave, any chance of a [pm of the company that did your noise report? I contacted a firm that said about 1k , I am near Penrith BTW. PS how do you get the time to play in your band and put up turbines?
    It was Martec Environmental Consultants, bloke called Mel Kenyon. I'll try and get you it when I have 5 mins. It was a desktop report. I have a twin. And he's slightly better on guitar than me. But not drums

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by windylamb View Post
    That's cheap Dave. 250 must be just a report from a computer model using figures from the manufacture and a map of your location, no need for background noise measurements? So they knew straight away that it's not going to be anywhere near the planners limits, just needed to reassure them?.

    A Noise Assessment ,in the strict sense, is a time consuming thing to do and requires extensive field measurements in your location (so that probably accounts for the 5K quote). If the planners just want verification that noise isn't an issue (because the nearest house is going to be along way away) then often the manufacturers data is sufficient. If it's considered that noise is likely to be a problem - that's when you need to start getting background noise data for your location and the cost starts going up. Someone who knows his stuff can see straight away (from the turbine to house distance) whether you're going to be in trouble and then you don't need to waste money flogging a dead horse. The marginal cases are where the money is spent and if it's marginal then you will piss your neighbours off without any doubt.
    Golden rule; you should live nearer to your turbine than your neighbours!
    I've a very good friend who's been going through the same planning process as me (starting 3.5 years ago!) but lives near a large village in a different planning authority. He was asked for a noise study which involved noise measurements being taken over an extended period, of background noise etc from 2 locations of dwellings nearest his site. That cost 8k. And the resulting assessment was a prediction based on recorded noise levels. We were asked for a noise assessment. Another friend in the same area as me supplied a simple manufacturer's graph and got away with it the jammy sod!! He got in before the deluge of applications started when the planners had no clue at all. They still don't have much clue but now they're scared!

  27. #27
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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Fair enough to measure present back ground noise , but what about proposed noise when turbine is built?
    Do you measure noise from an existing built turbine or what?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGT View Post
    Fair enough to measure present back ground noise , but what about proposed noise when turbine is built?
    Do you measure noise from an existing built turbine or what?
    As far as I can make out you are supposed to get the makers noise data for a particular model , however most machines seem to be sold through agents as they are made overseas, and I have rung 2 and they aren't keen to hand it over ( the data that is). They want to do it for you but it is only for their own good as they want to tie people in.

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Chicken and egg senario is it?

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    Re: Anyone ever regreted a turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGT View Post
    Chicken and egg senario is it?
    Yes , could do with someone breaking cover and being helpful!
    Thing is if I get permission then I will buy a turbine so there is business for someone, but all I can get so far is companies wanting 20k deposit with 5 for planning and 15 returnable if plans fail. What do you think if we fail? Do I feel confident that I will get 15k back ? Oh sorry sir cost a bit more than we thought. Been down this road before !

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