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Thread: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

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    Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Can anyone recommend a good kiwi Suffolk breeder please?

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Easyram would be the main one. There is an open meeting at his farm with Global Ovine on Sunday.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders


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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by 5312 View Post
    Easyram would be the main one. There is an open meeting at his farm with Global ovine on Sunday.
    From what I saw today he not only talks about the sheep ,he was feeding them (hay of course) watering, putting bedding down and sweeping the floor outside the pen while I was chatting with the owner.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by _sheptastic View Post
    Can anyone recommend a good kiwi Suffolk breeder please?
    Why go for Kiwi genetics. there are British genetics which will do the same. I dont know your location but the similar genetics can be seen in the arable east of the country with the ORTUM flock suffolks. A website is available.
    DG

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny400 View Post
    John Scott at Fearn Farm is using our genetics 100%. He will have some ram lambs in his on farm sale which I think will be next month

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    From what I saw today he not only talks about the sheep ,he was feeding them (hay of course) watering, putting bedding down and sweeping the floor outside the pen while I was chatting with the owner.
    Yes GO is a man of many talents including Stand Erector and Brusher upper !!

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    Wink Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by LINCS RED View Post
    Why go for Kiwi genetics. there are British genetics which will do the same. I dont know your location but the similar genetics can be seen in the arable east of the country with the ORTUM flock suffolks. A website is available.
    DG
    Oh dear - I have resisted rising to the bait for a day but can contain myself no longer My family ran a UK Suffolk flock for over 50 years before it was sold in in 2005 and, whilst the first ones arrived when I was only 5, I was actively farming them myself for 30 years. I have then been running a flock of NZ Suffolks for 6 years so I think I am as well placed as anyone to judge the differences between NZ and UK Suffolks. These are some of the major differences we have noticed in NZ sourced Suffolks :- Voracious grazers ( like locusts!) this means our rams grow and thrive on grass in the summer and stubble turnips/hay in the winter whilst receiving NO concentrates: Easy Lambing - April lambing ewes and ewe lambs are lambing outdoors ( this is made possible through the wedgy skeletal shape of the sheep which includes bigger pelvis, finer shoulders longer neck and less bone in legs ): sexual athletes - ram lambs as young as 7 months old are serving regularly 75 ewes and shearlings 150 ewes in a single season: rams don't melt as they can graze and feed whilst with ewes: much less foot rot due partly to foot shape - we do NOT routinely foot trim any of our sheep: massive reduction in dags: far better maternal instincts in ewes and this is transmitted to NZ Suffolk X ewes whether they are out of Mules, lleyns or Cheviots.
    In terms of our own flock thanks to the greater functionality of our sheep we will put 350 ewes and 100 + ewe lambs to the ram this year and expect to be lambing our 600 ewe target by 2016. This is in addition to our newly arrived Texel flock and Nick's commercial ewes. In terms of sales these have grown every year since we started selling in 2007. Before this season we had sold a total of 500+ rams to 250 buyers and last year alone that involved 180 rams to 115 buyers of which 50 were repeat customers. The following comment came unsolicited from a lady on Shetland who bought her first ram from us last year Robyn (the Ram)
    >> worked well and we are very impressed with thethe get up and go he
    >> has put into the lambs. We put a few to our oldtup and watched with
    >> amazement the difference between thetwo groups.

    I think this just about sums up where I think we are in relation to the rest of the Suffolk breed. I have no issue with those who say UK Suffolks are better ( though I would profoundly disagree and have plenty of happy clients to back me up ) but to say that the qualities our NZ Suffolks offer the commercial farmer can be found in any UK Suffolk flock does not imo stand up to the actual facts.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    What a a sad state of affairs the Suffolk breed has come to when it needs to be sold under a seperate banner , the breeders of the 70s and 80s should be ashamed Those genetics have been avalible here to some degree but the higherarchy have tried to stamp them out through the selling and showing rings .Unfortunatly most popular breeds are the same .

    I fully support what you are doing easyram more power to your elbow , its something we have tried to persevere with in our own breed , Would you say you are selling to the same farmers , if so why have they changed their buying habits and why would they have not bought that type before .Most importantly why wouldnt you have concidered buying that type when you had a uk flock , you must have seen the limitations those big boned no arsed rams had behind closed doors ,good uk suffolks are out there to a limited degree ? You have to appreciate the genetics you have were developed with like minded people , in NZ , What will change when they are removed from there and taken forward or backward by uk breeders from now on ,or is the intention to permanetly market them as NZ suffolks , continually importing NZ blood ?
    Long term strategy could be very important to avoid the money men ***~# up another ?? breed .

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Thanks for the replies

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    What a a sad state of affairs the Suffolk breed has come to when it needs to be sold under a seperate banner , the breeders of the 70s and 80s should be ashamed Those genetics have been avalible here to some degree but the higherarchy have tried to stamp them out through the selling and showing rings .Unfortunatly most popular breeds are the same .

    I fully support what you are doing easyram more power to your elbow , its something we have tried to persevere with in our own breed , Would you say you are selling to the same farmers , if so why have they changed their buying habits and why would they have not bought that type before .Most importantly why wouldnt you have concidered buying that type when you had a uk flock , you must have seen the limitations those big boned no arsed rams had behind closed doors ,good uk suffolks are out there to a limited degree ? You have to appreciate the genetics you have were developed with like minded people , in NZ , What will change when they are removed from there and taken forward or backward by uk breeders from now on ,or is the intention to permanetly market them as NZ suffolks , continually importing NZ blood ?
    Long term strategy could be very important to avoid the money men ***~# up another ?? breed .
    andybk, You are absolutely right about the affair. I am ortum's older brother!! We split the parnership about 10 years ago. But for several years before then we were the first draw out of the show ring due to breeding for muscling and easy care traits rather than the big head, big legs, brigade.In the early days of our flock I spent many New Years eves helpng ewes lamb but as we went down the figures root and lost the head and bone we also gained with easy lambing. Im sure easyram1 will have worked out who my brother is already!!. One of the reasons for not having sheep on my farm is I can now enjoy New Years Eve, unless there is a Lincoln Red calving of course, But they normally calve themselves.
    DG

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by LINCS RED View Post
    andybk, You are absolutely right about the affair. I am ortum's older brother!! We split the parnership about 10 years ago. But for several years before then we were the first draw out of the show ring due to breeding for muscling and easy care traits rather than the big head, big legs, brigade.In the early days of our flock I spent many New Years eves helpng ewes lamb but as we went down the figures root and lost the head and bone we also gained with easy lambing. Im sure easyram1 will have worked out who my brother is already!!. One of the reasons for not having sheep on my farm is I can now enjoy New Years Eve, unless there is a Lincoln Red calving of course, But they normally calve themselves.
    DG
    What a shame you gave up , we are regulary asked who breeds that type of uk suffolk ram (NZ suffolks excepted ) , many of our customers still like the suffok-mule and breed their own replacements . I have even toyed with the idea of starting one myself , but my charollais loyalties overide every time, and i know it will be a long long road .
    What has changed though is the arrival of the beltex , and the fact that a finer better naturaly muscled sheep can and do sire better lambs over a whole flock than that huge hulk that they once bought , which has knocked on through other breeds and buyers are willing to look at something different to the norm .but once they change they never look back assuming they dont melt

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post

    I fully support what you are doing easyram more power to your elbow , its something we have tried to persevere with in our own breed , Would you say you are selling to the same farmers , if so why have they changed their buying habits and why would they have not bought that type before .Most importantly why wouldnt you have concidered buying that type when you had a uk flock , you must have seen the limitations those big boned no arsed rams had behind closed doors ,good uk suffolks are out there to a limited degree ? You have to appreciate the genetics you have were developed with like minded people , in NZ , What will change when they are removed from there and taken forward or backward by uk breeders from now on ,or is the intention to permanetly market them as NZ suffolks , continually importing NZ blood ?
    Long term strategy could be very important to avoid the money men ***~# up another ?? breed .
    No we seem to be selling to very different clients compared to pre 2006 when we sold our UK Suffolks. A lot of the "new clients" had already given up using Suffolks due to management issues but still liked the well known advantages of quick growth and colour marked black faced lambs. Other new clients were looking for outdoor lambing and rams that would produce easily born lambs with good survivability. In summary most clients want Suffolks for their good points but don't want the normal associated baggage - we think we offer the solution to these people.
    I heard GO speak at Greenmount in 2005 and subsequently arranged for him to address a Suffolk Society Conference in 2006.It was whilst talking to him then that I began to understand the Kiwi view that a ram breeder is just a service provider to the key part of the industry - the commercial sheep farmer - and so the ram breeder was no different to a seed or fertiliser salesman ie you need to sell a product to your client that will increase his profits otherwise he will stop buying off you. So having decided to go down this route I asked GO if he thought I could alter our flock to produce a more functional sheep and if so would I be successful.His answer was "Hell yes it will work but it will take a min of 10 years and I am not sure you have that long"!! I never asked if he meant the Suffolk breed or meAnyway that is why and how we came to take what was a very dramatic and in many ways traumatic turnround.

    Apart from the sheep we have tried to adopt an NZ philosophy ie if the sheep is not correct we cull rather than trying to mask problems ie by foot trimming: only sell off farm: fully record all the sheep: no concentrates and most importantly get to know and understand your client and respond to any feedback good or bad. In terms of others mucking it up we are very keen to promote EasyRams as being bred managed and sold according to our own standards. We are very very wary of allowing others to breed and sell on from our genetics for the very reason you had identified and so hope that we are selling sheep based on 100% NZ Genetics but adapted to meet the needs of the UK market.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by easyram1 View Post
    No we seem to be selling to very different clients compared to pre 2006 when we sold our UK Suffolks. A lot of the "new clients" had already given up using Suffolks due to management issues but still liked the well known advantages of quick growth and colour marked black faced lambs. Other new clients were looking for outdoor lambing and rams that would produce easily born lambs with good survivability. In summary most clients want Suffolks for their good points but don't want the normal associated baggage - we think we offer the solution to these people.
    I heard GO speak at Greenmount in 2005 and subsequently arranged for him to address a Suffolk Society Conference in 2006.It was whilst talking to him then that I began to understand the Kiwi view that a ram breeder is just a service provider to the key part of the industry - the commercial sheep farmer - and so the ram breeder was no different to a seed or fertiliser salesman ie you need to sell a product to your client that will increase his profits otherwise he will stop buying off you. So having decided to go down this route I asked GO if he thought I could alter our flock to produce a more functional sheep and if so would I be successful.His answer was "Hell yes it will work but it will take a min of 10 years and I am not sure you have that long"!! I never asked if he meant the Suffolk breed or meAnyway that is why and how we came to take what was a very dramatic and in many ways traumatic turnround.

    Apart from the sheep we have tried to adopt an NZ philosophy ie if the sheep is not correct we cull rather than trying to mask problems ie by foot trimming: only sell off farm: fully record all the sheep: no concentrates and most importantly get to know and understand your client and respond to any feedback good or bad. In terms of others mucking it up we are very keen to promote EasyRams as being bred managed and sold according to our own standards. We are very very wary of allowing others to breed and sell on from our genetics for the very reason you had identified and so hope that we are selling sheep based on 100% NZ Genetics but adapted to meet the needs of the UK market.
    others may know my objections to the terminal eblex scheme on this forum ,and the use of concentrate to accentuate figures 8- 21 weeks ,so are you locked into that route ? It is something im very interested in, as i believe that some of the best genetics will achieve much of the growth before the first weighing , based on our own research on growth curves of individual lambs (coupled with ewe milking i know ), , if your doing it on a forage system can you identify easily the best performers ? or are you looking at flock improvement as a whole

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    others may know my objections to the terminal eblex scheme on this forum ,and the use of concentrate to accentuate figures 8- 21 weeks ,so are you locked into that route ? It is something im very interested in, as i believe that some of the best genetics will achieve much of the growth before the first weighing , based on our own research on growth curves of individual lambs (coupled with ewe milking i know ), , if your doing it on a forage system can you identify easily the best performers ? or are you looking at flock improvement as a whole
    AGAIN Andy, Signet recording most definitely does not 'lock' anyone into feeding high conc levels, breeding for size (for showing or auction competition) rather than genetic value does that. More and more recorded flocks, in all breeds & composites, are using Signet recording as a selection tool without resorting to feeding high levels of concs.

    I fail to see why you are so set in your opinion that conc feeding and recording (Signet being the only agency providing recording services in the UK) are linked. I saw plenty of very heavily fed sheep at the Royal Welsh last week, and judging elsewhere today, a lot of which were not recorded.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    What a shame you gave up , we are regulary asked who breeds that type of uk suffolk ram (NZ suffolks excepted ) , many of our customers still like the suffok-mule and breed their own replacements . I have even toyed with the idea of starting one myself , but my charollais loyalties overide every time, and i know it will be a long long road .
    What has changed though is the arrival of the beltex , and the fact that a finer better naturaly muscled sheep can and do sire better lambs over a whole flock than that huge hulk that they once bought , which has knocked on through other breeds and buyers are willing to look at something different to the norm .but once they change they never look back assuming they dont melt
    I didnt give up, we split the partnership and the ORTUM flock still exists, Brother is like Neilo and at the top of his breed recorded list. He exports sheep to Holland and now Germany.If you google Ortum you will see the results.
    DG

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by LINCS RED View Post
    andybk, You are absolutely right about the affair. I am ortum's older brother!! We split the parnership about 10 years ago. But for several years before then we were the first draw out of the show ring due to breeding for muscling and easy care traits rather than the big head, big legs, brigade.In the early days of our flock I spent many New Years eves helpng ewes lamb but as we went down the figures root and lost the head and bone we also gained with easy lambing. Im sure easyram1 will have worked out who my brother is already!!. One of the reasons for not having sheep on my farm is I can now enjoy New Years Eve, unless there is a Lincoln Red calving of course, But they normally calve themselves.
    DG
    My only problem was how Richard's initials had changed to DG

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    others may know my objections to the terminal eblex scheme on this forum ,and the use of concentrate to accentuate figures 8- 21 weeks ,so are you locked into that route ? It is something im very interested in, as i believe that some of the best genetics will achieve much of the growth before the first weighing , based on our own research on growth curves of individual lambs (coupled with ewe milking i know ), , if your doing it on a forage system can you identify easily the best performers ? or are you looking at flock improvement as a whole
    If I understand you correctly then I am in agreement 100%.The real issue as I see it is "will heavily concentrate fed rams reproduce their performance if used in a grass only system."? I remember discussing elsewhere the paper Will Haresigne gave to the 2011 Sheep Breeders Round Table which said that in the massive hi/lo trial some 10 years ago whilst overall the 3 terminal breeds proved that hi index rams proved more profitable than lo index rams to the tune of 3/lamb nevertheless there was zero difference with the Suffolks moderate difference with the Charolais and big differences with the Texels. The only explanation the scientists could come up with for these differences was that Suffolks were fed large amounts of concentrates, Charolais moderate, and Texels least so that the ability to perform better on concentrates did not follow through to how progeny performed on grass.

    We are primarily interested in using Signet figures to rank our own sheep as clearly identifying superior males or females within our own flock is of paramount interest. As far as clients are concerned those wanting figures are interested in a within flock basis as they have decided to buy off us. What I am really excited by is the work our Spark Award with SAC is allowing namely to compare our Suffolks/Texels/and Sufftex with each other. This is the first time a direct comparison between breeds has been done in the UK and will allow us to get a real handle on the merits of the different breeds. We will have the report by the end of August

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    others may know my objections to the terminal eblex scheme on this forum ,and the use of concentrate to accentuate figures 8- 21 weeks ,so are you locked into that route ? It is something im very interested in, as i believe that some of the best genetics will achieve much of the growth before the first weighing , based on our own research on growth curves of individual lambs (coupled with ewe milking i know ), , if your doing it on a forage system can you identify easily the best performers ? or are you looking at flock improvement as a whole
    Yes Andy we know what you think (do you ever miss a chance to say it on here?) and we know you are saying this purely to help market your own stock as you know fine well there is no like between performance recording and concentrate feeding but you seam determined to create one.
    Concentrate feeding does not accentuate the 8 or 21 week weight EBV, it accentuates the actual weight of the fed lambs but that doesn't mean the EBV will be any different. In the breeding groups i work with there are farms with an average growth rate to weaning of 100g/day and there are others at 300g/day. Now i know you can't cope with this but the farm where the lambs average 100g/day has the majority of the high growth rate EBV animals in the group because the BLUP system removes the enviromental factors from the genetics and that farm has good genetics but is a very poor farm.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    A very interesting day(Sunday) the rotational grazing system talked about has got by brain working overtime .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Easyrams, what kind of average daily weight gains are you getting from mule ewes crossed with your rams?

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor8 View Post
    Easyrams, what kind of average daily weight gains are you getting from mule ewes crossed with your rams?
    Gee Razor8, with 80% of lamb growth rate dependant on digestibility, how is he going to answer that meaningfully? That question is paramount to how good a pasture manager are you Mr. Easyrams. But what he does have is an unbroken history of selection off pasture management only. That is very different to generations of sires best responding to copious quantities of concentrates, both in how their rumen and metabolism handles high bulk feed and how vigorous the sheep are at grazing.

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    Re: Kiwi Suffolk breeders

    Hi GO, i would be a very poor pasture manager, have 3 fragmented farms, work part time and don't have the time to top/rotate as much as i would like etc. First year properly recording weights and lambs are averaging 290 a day up to 15 weeks including ewe lambs progency. no concentrates fed to main flock apart from ewelambs lambs, which i think is good on poor enough ground

    i understand your point but i think LWG should be shared more between flocks because at the end of day this translates into profit, even a comparison of gains between the breeds you are using would be interesting and then i can do the guess work on your type of land/management of pasture etc to compare

    i have bought heavily fed rams in the past and watched them go downhill so i do understand the problems in the show ring at the moment

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