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Thread: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

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    Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Morning all...has anyone encountered the above problem?....are there any known,common faults to look for?

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    git will be a short in the safety swith in the seat just conect the

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    could be all sorts, but as said first thing is to bypass the seat switch. then if you have forward/reverse on the joystick check out the wiring on that.
    also check out the reversing lights/wiring and the buzzar if fitted with one as they can cause it to blow too.


    then disconnect the plugs on the transmission solenoids one at a time see if that narrows it down abit.

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Was the reversing light that was blowing ours. Intermittent short at rear light unit where a stanchion backed into it...

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Was the reversing light that was blowing ours. Intermittent short at rear light unit where a stanchion backed into it...
    bleeding moving stanchions they always get in the way

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Ours has gone a few times, first time a ratchet strap slipped under the seat and shorting the seat switch. Second time the gear leaver handle came loose causing a short in the wire to the hand clutch

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Hi, I've got the same problem with our 627. No.8 fuse blows when you flick it into reverse. I'm pretty sure it's not reverse light, not the solenoid on gearbox but may be wiring to it. It only blows when you have k2 relay in.
    Any help appreciated thanks!

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    I fixed a swivel in the middle manitou a couple of months ago that was blowing the fuse in reverse, it was the work lights /reversing lights that come on with the reverse that were the fault. The owner didn't want to spend the time to find the short so I just pulled the relay for the lights from the board behind the dash which solved the problem. It probably wouldn't have been that expensive to fix right but he didn't care about the lights so I couldn't spend the time chasing after it.Well worth trying removing the relay I think it was K2 as well. I can get you a scan of the diagram if you are stuck as he's only a mile down the road and has the workshop manual from the time we fixed the transmission. I wasn't the first person to look at it and he was gobsmacked when I looked at the drawing and pulled the relay and away she went.

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Quote Originally Posted by T P View Post
    I fixed a swivel in the middle manitou a couple of months ago that was blowing the fuse in reverse, it was the work lights /reversing lights that come on with the reverse that were the fault. The owner didn't want to spend the time to find the short so I just pulled the relay for the lights from the board behind the dash which solved the problem. It probably wouldn't have been that expensive to fix right but he didn't care about the lights so I couldn't spend the time chasing after it.Well worth trying removing the relay I think it was K2 as well. I can get you a scan of the diagram if you are stuck as he's only a mile down the road and has the workshop manual from the time we fixed the transmission. I wasn't the first person to look at it and he was gobsmacked when I looked at the drawing and pulled the relay and away she went.
    Hi TP

    MLA 627 and MLA 628 have a diode on the reverse light circuit under the left hand side of dash. normally just about access it through the work light switch hole if you pull it out?

    I would check that first as used to be a common thing on them to blow, although from memory it would just stop the rear work lights coming on in reverse but they would work manually. The diode is supposed to stop power from the work lights back feeding to the reverse solenoid when switched on manually I think, but worth looking at anyway.

    Next up would be reverse buzzer and wiring. even if it don't have a buzzer connected it will be wired for one from factory.

    There is a MLT 627 as well totally different machines

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Hi Ace, it's a MLT that I've got the problem with. Just scratching my head with it now. It's a 10 plate which hasn't got a reversing buzzer, would that still have wiring?
    Thanks

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Quote Originally Posted by tubeofglue View Post
    Hi Ace, it's a MLT that I've got the problem with. Just scratching my head with it now. It's a 10 plate which hasn't got a reversing buzzer, would that still have wiring?
    Thanks
    Yes I'm sure they pre wired like most manitous are. Look by the rear wing main loom plug to rear light unit. The one you disconnect to remove rear wings. You should find a spare 2 pin plug around there.

    However common places to short out on your model is gearstick dump button wiring so remove trans cover under boom and have a good look there. Also the joystick forward reverse wires. Loom can wear at base of stick and short to earth.
    Plus wiring in rear lights and plug at back of light unit.

    Do not put a bigger fuse in! Or you will melt the looms...
    Just like this one
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Ok thanks for that! One thing I've thought, because is only does it in reverse would the gear stick cable not blow it in forward aswell? I wonder about the handbrake switch but havnt taken that apart yet and surely that would blow in forward aswell? There was quite a good kink at the bottom of joystick but the plastic wasn't broken, going to double check that though.

    Think TP said about taking the relay out that works but I'm not sure where that is? Taking relay k2 out stops it blowing but it's not powering reverse solenoid then. I couldn't work out why that solenoid is closing the earth side not positive either??

    Looks like there's more relays under the dash, I've Only been in that panel by accelerator

    Thanks again

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Quote Originally Posted by tubeofglue View Post
    Ok thanks for that! One thing I've thought, because is only does it in reverse would the gear stick cable not blow it in forward aswell? I wonder about the handbrake switch but havnt taken that apart yet and surely that would blow in forward aswell? There was quite a good kink at the bottom of joystick but the plastic wasn't broken, going to double check that though.

    Think TP said about taking the relay out that works but I'm not sure where that is? Taking relay k2 out stops it blowing but it's not powering reverse solenoid then. I couldn't work out why that solenoid is closing the earth side not positive either??

    Looks like there's more relays under the dash, I've Only been in that panel by accelerator

    Thanks again
    Most relays are in the fuse board but there are a few extras by the brake fluid pot. plus there is a rectangular electric thing with a buzzer in it, that is the transmission control unit.
    And yes your right a fault on gearstick or joystick wiring would in theory blow in forwards as well. which brings you back to the reverse lights and wiring and the reverse solenoid. so have a look at them. maybe swap the reverse solenoid with the forward one to see if the coil is failing?

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    Post Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    I see the machine in the picture appears to have a non genuine or non OE relay fitted, not sure if it would matter in this instance but I've seen the wrong choice of relay cause a dead short and melt the loom in a JCB,not cheap to sort out. Some of the relays around these days have fancy features built in like diodes across or in series with the contacts and sticking in a bog standard lights relay can cause mayhem, especially on anything with a "brain" .A lot of stuff now is wired with "sink" rather than "source" wiring "from" or perhaps more accurately "to" the controller as it's harder to damage and more or less the industrial, industry standard. The days for poking around stuff without drawings are "drawing" to an end as you can do so much damage on old assumptions these days.

    http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/all...256B4C007491DD

    While there are advantages and disadvantages to either setup in practice I have found that you are much less likely to suffer expensive damage on a "sink" setup when there's a short, and I see "sinking"on more and more new machines but it's hard to get your head around after being used to traditional wiring. Something worth reading up on as newer machines come along. In ye old days where the controller switched on a relay by providing the output current if there was a short in the loom before the relay nine times out of ten it blew the output on the controller meaning either a new controller or waiting on a repair by a specialist. With the relay coil sitting "live" all the time and the controller only sinking the switching current as required if there's a short between the relay and controller the relay comes on when not desired but the controller normally takes no damage, not quite as safe but cheaper to fix. However the relay will always have a flywheel / "flyback" diode across the coil to stop voltage spikes hitting the controller, that's where sticking the wrong relay in can cause really expensive damage. A bog standard 12v "worklight" relay can zap the controller with several hundred volts of back emf unintentionally every time it switches off along the same lines (but less efficiently )as an ignition coil creates the spark.

    https://electronics.stackexchange.co...o-a-relay-coil

    which it might or might not handle depending on whether it has any internal protection.A lot of the Japanese stuff has been that way for years I hated it at the start but eventually I appreciated why it was done that way. You will see more and more of it as it's being taught as good practice these days. A good clue of a sink type input is two or three or four wires to say a engine temperature sensor or oil pressure switch whereas in the past there would only have been one. One wire is the supply to the item the other is the "result" being "sunk" to the controller. often the result is a monitored current rather than a switching voltage so if you try to measure the voltage at the sensor it can much the same either side.Not funny when it goes wrong and you haven't got the full wiring diagram and info. Take a close look at relays when replacing them unfortunately the basic versions physically fit in place of the protective ones and can do a lot of damage. There is another type of relay about with a resistor across the contacts internally as a cheap solution which works but wastes a a small amount of power when on which is sort of frowned upon these days by greenpeace and the tree huggers. The diode types can have the diode biased either way (though I haven't seen any for years now) but are NOT interchangeable as the diode can become a dead short if you pick the wrong one which the wiring may or may not withstand, is an interesting battle as to whether the diode burns out or the loom goes on fire first, Remember around 30 amps drives a heater plug red hot and farmers like big handfuls of 35a blade fuses to replenish the fusebox instead of fives's or tens when they blow.

    Here are five relays that will physically swop and if you are turning on a set of additional worklights on a 135 Massey any will do but they may not swop in something more modern. Indeed the basic one may do a lot of damage. All the same contact configuration:



    First we have the bog standard relay with no internal protection for associated electronic devices fine for the old massey:



    Next relay with internal resistor to provide protection to connected electronics:



    spot the small blue resistor soldered under the coil:




    Next the same manufacturer but with an internal protective diode, note the + sign at terminal 86 which is a good warning not to connect it wrong! This is the normal polarity of the diode but sometimes machine builders fit standalone diodes in the loom (like Ace referred to ) to achieve the opposite effect if they are triggering the relay with a reverse current direction to normal in that case typically you'd see a bog standard relay or one with a resistor instead. Nothing is set in stone, there's best practice but nothing seems "compulsory ". The diode in the loom is often hard to find but of course _the schematics will always be freely available and totally accurate



    You can clearly see the diode soldered in across the coil with it's silver band indicating the polarity:



    Lucas model with protective resistor:



    and what it looks like inside seems quite a a high wattage resistor:



    So not all relays are created equal and using the wrong one around anything with a solid state output or input (brain) is a good way to get a load of grief down the line. Even worklights are being switched on by little controllers these days so something as simple as adding extra worklights with a cheap kit that comes with a bog standard relay can do a lot of damage if you are unlucky. Hopefully this will help someone stay out of trouble. Expensive machine?_ fit the proper part not just something with the contacts in the right place..
    Last edited by T P; 22-09-17 at 12:10 PM.

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    Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    Quote Originally Posted by T P View Post
    I see the machine in the picture appears to have a non genuine or non OE relay fitted, not sure if it would matter in this instance but I've seen the wrong choice of relay cause a dead short and melt the loom in a JCB,not cheap to sort out. Some of the relays around these days have fancy features built in like diodes across or in series with the contacts and sticking in a bog standard lights relay can cause mayhem, especially on anything with a "brain" .A lot of stuff now is wired with "sink" rather than "source" wiring "from" or perhaps more accurately "to" the controller as it's harder to damage and more or less the industrial, industry standard. The days for poking around stuff without drawings are "drawing" to an end as you can do so much damage on old assumptions these days.

    http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/all...256B4C007491DD

    While there are advantages and disadvantages to either setup in practice I have found that you are much less likely to suffer expensive damage on a "sink" setup when there's a short, and I see "sinking"on more and more new machines but it's hard to get your head around after being used to traditional wiring. Something worth reading up on as newer machines come along. In ye old days where the controller switched on a relay by providing the output current if there was a short in the loom before the relay nine times out of ten it blew the output on the controller meaning either a new controller or waiting on a repair by a specialist. With the relay coil sitting "live" all the time and the controller only sinking the switching current as required if there's a short between the relay and controller the relay comes on when not desired but the controller normally takes no damage, not quite as safe but cheaper to fix. However the relay will always have a flywheel / "flyback" diode across the coil to stop voltage spikes hitting the controller, that's where sticking the wrong relay in can cause really expensive damage. A bog standard 12v "worklight" relay can zap the controller with several hundred volts of back emf unintentionally every time it switches off along the same lines (but less efficiently )as an ignition coil creates the spark.

    https://electronics.stackexchange.co...o-a-relay-coil

    which it might or might not handle depending on whether it has any internal protection.A lot of the Japanese stuff has been that way for years I hated it at the start but eventually I appreciated why it was done that way. You will see more and more of it as it's being taught as good practice these days. A good clue of a sink type input is two or three or four wires to say a engine temperature sensor or oil pressure switch whereas in the past there would only have been one. One wire is the supply to the item the other is the "result" being "sunk" to the controller. often the result is a monitored current rather than a switching voltage so if you try to measure the voltage at the sensor it can much the same either side.Not funny when it goes wrong and you haven't got the full wiring diagram and info. Take a close look at relays when replacing them unfortunately the basic versions physically fit in place of the protective ones and can do a lot of damage. There is another type of relay about with a resistor across the contacts internally as a cheap solution which works but wastes a a small amount of power when on which is sort of frowned upon these days by greenpeace and the tree huggers. The diode types can have the diode biased either way (though I haven't seen any for years now) but are NOT interchangeable as the diode can become a dead short if you pick the wrong one which the wiring may or may not withstand, is an interesting battle as to whether the diode burns out or the loom goes on fire first, Remember around 30 amps drives a heater plug red hot and farmers like big handfuls of 35a blade fuses to replenish the fusebox instead of fives's or tens when they blow.

    Here are five relays that will physically swop and if you are turning on a set of additional worklights on a 135 Massey any will do but they may not swop in something more modern. Indeed the basic one may do a lot of damage. All the same contact configuration:



    First we have the bog standard relay with no internal protection for associated electronic devices fine for the old massey:



    Next relay with internal resistor to provide protection to connected electronics:



    spot the small blue resistor soldered under the coil:




    Next the same manufacturer but with an internal protective diode, note the + sign at terminal 86 which is a good warning not to connect it wrong! This is the normal polarity of the diode but sometimes machine builders fit standalone diodes in the loom (like Ace referred to ) to achieve the opposite effect if they are triggering the relay with a reverse current direction to normal in that case typically you'd see a bog standard relay or one with a resistor instead. Nothing is set in stone, there's best practice but nothing seems "compulsory ". The diode in the loom is often hard to find but of course _the schematics will always be freely available and totally accurate



    You can clearly see the diode soldered in across the coil with it's silver band indicating the polarity:



    Lucas model with protective resistor:



    and what it looks like inside seems quite a a high wattage resistor:



    So not all relays are created equal and using the wrong one around anything with a solid state output or input (brain) is a good way to get a load of grief down the line. Even worklights are being switched on by little controllers these days so something as simple as adding extra worklights with a cheap kit that comes with a bog standard relay can do a lot of damage if you are unlucky. Hopefully this will help someone stay out of trouble. Expensive machine?_ fit the proper part not just something with the contacts in the right place..
    I hate relays so many types all looking the same.

    Anyway back to my pic. They are actually all genuine relays👍 problem was i think from what was left of it. A wire rubbed through and shorted on the gearstick dump. Ever wire from gearstick to fuse board to forward reverse lever was melted in the loom. Including the rocker switch on dash for trans disconnect and the brake pedal switch. Plus several wires that happened to run along side them in the looms. Transmission disconnect controler was also fryed.
    All because a wire rubbed through and they used a nail for a fuse😂

    It did also blow a diode in the pcb board which stops the transmission oil warning light back feeding to the engine oil pressure light. Just means that if trans light comes on then so does engine no big deal so left that.

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    Senior Member T P's Avatar
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    Red face Re: Manitou 627 transmission fuse blowing

    I'm familiar with nail for fuse, usually installed by phallus for head. Four days it took me to repair a 409 JCB once after nail for fuse or actually I think it was small steeple for fuse much the same amperage rating. Wasn't much change out of £2k as it needed three separate loom sections and a new dashboard. I think the initial fault was relays being swopped at random and a diode protected relay being inserted where it shouldn't have been and the diode acted as a dead short across the coil as the current reversed direction periodically in the coil during normal use which blew the fuse so the brains of Britain kept upping fuses which still blew then resorted to nail for fuse. It's very easy to fry the loom on some of the older JCB's swopping it's own relays at random without paying proper attention to the specs of the relay. Once you get away from OE relays it's Russian roulette unless you really know their properties. I fitted loads of new looms to JCB's (the ones that didn't burn to the ground) and the common denominator was wrong relays and uprated fuses. Totally not the manufacturer's fault you can't be held accountable for phallus for head end users.
    This is probably a much better drawn up explanation of the basic relay types and differences than mine in the configurations section:

    http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html

    Anyone used one of these yet?

    http://www.rallylights.com/hella-hl8...y-12v-20a.html

    No coil, no contacts,no moving parts. To be honest I don't see much need for them (unless you're building a mini submarine_IP67 )and the size of that heatsink makes me think the tree huggers wouldn't be pleased either. No surprise they're priced in dollars then.They would have the advantage of not producing the damaging inductive voltage spike but the big negative would seem that you cannot reverse the current direction in them and although theotically possible I've never seen a changeover type so they couldn't replace the standard versions in some applications. One other potential application for these would be PWM as they can switch at up to 1khz but there are better standalone PWM modules available.
    Last edited by T P; 23-09-17 at 11:20 PM.

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