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Thread: 150kw Vs 225kw

  1. #1
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    150kw Vs 225kw

    is it too over simplictic to say that a 150kw will produce 2/3 the power of a 225kw wind turbine if they were on the same site.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    is it too over simplictic to say that a 150kw will produce 2/3 the power of a 225kw wind turbine if they were on the same site.
    Yes because I would imagine both Turbines would have a different Power Curve. Output & Yield is dependent on swept area of the blades, rather than rated power of the generator

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    It really can vary depending on the site. On a lower wind speed site the 150kW is likely to perform better - I know of a 150kW and a 225kW in close proximity and both outputs are very very similar. However, on a good site the 225 will probably "run away" on the 150

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by quattro_tdi View Post
    It really can vary depending on the site. On a lower wind speed site the 150kW is likely to perform better - I know of a 150kW and a 225kW in close proximity and both outputs are very very similar. However, on a good site the 225 will probably "run away" on the 150
    Hmmm, yes and no. It depends on the turbine. Blade length is the single most important factor, but size of generator matters too. Some turbines cut in at a lower windspeed than others but it's not that great a difference. 2 turbines in close proximity can have very different microclimates also, but for any single site the 225kW is "likely" to perform better.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Yes because I would imagine both Turbines would have a different Power Curve. Output & Yield is dependent on swept area of the blades, rather than rated power of the generator
    Again, yes to a degree. However generator size does matter. For instance a Turbowinds 400kW turbine will produce a lot more than a 225kW Endurance X29 than simply 34/29 which is their blade diameter. Also Windflow do several generator sizes with exactly the same blade diameter of 33m.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    It's the relationship between swept area and generator size that's key. For lower wind sites a relatively large swept area is better but on a windier site the generator might not be big enough for the power generated by the blades.

    But all this, and other subtleties (direct drive v gearbox, upwind v down wind etc etc) is captured in the power curves. The answer the original question could be yes but the 225 would have to have exactly 1.5 times the power output of the 150 at all wind speeds. It's unlikely that there are 2 turbines out there that have exactly the same power curve shape.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    my reason for asking is too lower the cost of the project, connection for the 150kw is 30k cheaper but at a guess a 225kw should bring that amount extra in during the first year. turbine cost is another viarable. 150 not refurdished at a guess 40k cheaper,again another years extra production. the costs keep mounting for a 225kw with v27 vestas getting out of control on price.currently looking at a micon 700. cost of connection now in n.i. is getting extreme,with many cases putting the last nail in the coffin

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Hmmm, yes and no. It depends on the turbine. Blade length is the single most important factor, but size of generator matters too. Some turbines cut in at a lower windspeed than others but it's not that great a difference. 2 turbines in close proximity can have very different microclimates also, but for any single site the 225kW is "likely" to perform better.
    The two turbines I mention are a 27m blade dia 225kW and a 24m blade dia 150kW. The 225 is doing circa 50k per annum and the 150 is doing 53k. The problem is that the classic used 225kW is a Vestas V27 which is a class 1 turbine and doesn't suit a lot of lower wind speed sites.

    In terms of cost, the 150kW between grid connection and full refurbishment/installation is going to be in and around 80-100k less so if the 225 is going to only bring in another 10/12k per year you have to really think is it worth the extra?

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by quattro_tdi View Post
    The two turbines I mention are a 27m blade dia 225kW and a 24m blade dia 150kW. The 225 is doing circa 50k per annum and the 150 is doing 53k. The problem is that the classic used 225kW is a Vestas V27 which is a class 1 turbine and doesn't suit a lot of lower wind speed sites.

    In terms of cost, the 150kW between grid connection and full refurbishment/installation is going to be in and around 80-100k less so if the 225 is going to only bring in another 10/12k per year you have to really think is it worth the extra?
    Where are you in the UK? unless you are Northern Ireland you wont be able to claim Fit on the refurbished Vestas.(no matter what some of these refurbishing companies tell you) unless you can find one which no part of which has been installed under a Feed In Tarriff anywhere in Europe, even if you did Ofgem will take some persuading, and likely not accredit it. I would think that will help you decide. The 150Kw 24M Blades should pick up the wind better anyway, as you say the V27 is a class 1 machine more suitable for installation in the Outer Hebrides!!

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Yep Northern Ireland. I noticed zsnotdead is from here as well so I'm assuming that these are the sorts of turbines he is weighing up at the moment.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Can I ask why a lot of people in NI are opting for buying and doing the project themselves than just leasing? I was approached to lease as I have a location that can take 2-3 turbines. Can't remember the size but the turbine has a rotor diameter of 33m. Everyone around me are not leasing and are sticking up new/2nd turbines. Because they are doing it themselves, I can't get figures out of them as its their business.

    I spoke to a guy from NIE who has the job of going around assessing turbine sites and he advised me to lease as it was madness to do it yourself for various reasons unless your a multi millionaire.

    For those in NI, where do you go or who do you see if you want to purchase a turbine?

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    If you do it yourself and you do it right the rewards are much greater than renting the site. However, you have to be careful what you buy etc. The problem seems to be that a lot of people have signed up to rental companies and haven't got a turbine installed, let alone any planning permission - what good is that? A lot of these guys are doing their best to get out of the agreements as their projects are going no where. It's probably best to seek advice from an independent body before you spend a ball of money pointlessly.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    I was told (about site leasing) that some companies out there were just interested in gathering sites for "a portfolio of sites to sell on" and never had any intention of putting turbines up themselves. So you sign your site over, get no income and can't put your own turbine up (or anything else for that matter). The words Sub-Prime come to mind. Read the small print!

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Everything I can see about turbines says that if you can fund it yourself then you should. Depends on your attitude to risk as much as anything.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Hammond View Post
    Can I ask why a lot of people in NI are opting for buying and doing the project themselves than just leasing? I was approached to lease as I have a location that can take 2-3 turbines. Can't remember the size but the turbine has a rotor diameter of 33m. Everyone around me are not leasing and are sticking up new/2nd turbines. Because they are doing it themselves, I can't get figures out of them as its their business.

    I spoke to a guy from NIE who has the job of going around assessing turbine sites and he advised me to lease as it was madness to do it yourself for various reasons unless your a multi millionaire.

    For those in NI, where do you go or who do you see if you want to purchase a turbine?
    go for your own planning, its keeps you in control for 12 months to weigh up your options,about 3 to 4k a site i guess, but first find out where the nearest 33kva line is. 4k every 100m.connection can vary widely for a 225kw from 50k to 100s of thousands. leasing out a site is relatively risk free although watch for inheritance tax issues but the company can go at a snails pace,you,re tied in for up to 5 years

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by quattro_tdi View Post
    It really can vary depending on the site. On a lower wind speed site the 150kW is likely to perform better - I know of a 150kW and a 225kW in close proximity and both outputs are very very similar. However, on a good site the 225 will probably "run away" on the 150
    what do you call a lower wind speed site,sub 6m/sec or lower

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    go for your own planning, its keeps you in control for 12 months to weigh up your options,about 3 to 4k a site i guess, but first find out where the nearest 33kva line is. 4k every 100m.connection can vary widely for a 225kw from 50k to 100s of thousands. leasing out a site is relatively risk free although watch for inheritance tax issues but the company can go at a snails pace,you,re tied in for up to 5 years
    Nearest line is 300-400m away. I have a good wide lane all the way from the road to about 100m from the site. I thought planning would have been more.
    Can I ask what the average return is for a 225kw/250kw turbine?

    Also, what factors do you look at that decides what size of turbine to install? e.g 150kw or 225kw like mentioned above?

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Hammond View Post
    Nearest line is 300-400m away. I have a good wide lane all the way from the road to about 100m from the site. I thought planning would have been more.
    Can I ask what the average return is for a 225kw/250kw turbine?

    Also, what factors do you look at that decides what size of turbine to install? e.g 150kw or 225kw like mentioned above?
    main factor is finance. conne tion for a 150kw is pole mounted but 225kw needs a ground mounted sub station,which includes a lease agreement with nie therefore taking longer. income depends on wind speed

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    The way the grid capacity is in NI having three phase running over the potential site is no longer a major advantage. You could end up with a "no room at the inn" situation if there are a number of other turbine projects hoping to connect to your line.

    Also, it's not the 33kVa line you want, it's the 11kVa. NIE generally don't let you connect to the 33, and if you do get on you have an additional step down transformer to go on.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by quattro_tdi View Post
    The way the grid capacity is in NI having three phase running over the potential site is no longer a major advantage. You could end up with a "no room at the inn" situation if there are a number of other turbine projects hoping to connect to your line.

    Also, it's not the 33kVa line you want, it's the 11kVa. NIE generally don't let you connect to the 33, and if you do get on you have an additional step down transformer to go on.
    i,m already connected to 33kva

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    One of the chosen few then!

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Hammond View Post
    Nearest line is 300-400m away. I have a good wide lane all the way from the road to about 100m from the site. I thought planning would have been more.
    Can I ask what the average return is for a 225kw/250kw turbine?

    Also, what factors do you look at that decides what size of turbine to install? e.g 150kw or 225kw like mentioned above?
    i have a site leased to a company on a fixed rate,one company that looked at my site and is putting one up on my neighbour's land offered 10% of the profit and they said it would be anything from 8k to 12k depending on wind speed,so you do the maths.as quattro tdi says having 3 phase near by is no longer an advantage because it runs over my site and nie has quoted 100's of thousands for grid connection,they want the turbine company to up grade the line the whole way to the sub station approx 4 milessome one said nie is getting the net work up graded by the back door

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    i,m already connected to 33kva
    I don't think we have much 33Kv in England. Our local network which I am Connected in is 20KV, but most areas are 11KV and 66KV Feeders. National Grid will be in charge of anything more HV than that

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I don't think we have much 33Kv in England. Our local network which I am Connected in is 20KV, but most areas are 11KV and 66KV Feeders. National Grid will be in charge of anything more HV than that
    i may be mistaken, its probably 11kv

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    my reason for asking is too lower the cost of the project, connection for the 150kw is 30k cheaper but at a guess a 225kw should bring that amount extra in during the first year. turbine cost is another viarable. 150 not refurdished at a guess 40k cheaper,again another years extra production. the costs keep mounting for a 225kw with v27 vestas getting out of control on price.currently looking at a micon 700. cost of connection now in n.i. is getting extreme,with many cases putting the last nail in the coffin

    Im currently in the same situation, weighing up options. It took me just over 3 years to get planning!! My original plan was to install a v27 but after the initial NIE site visit it looks like the 225kw grid connection will be 100k more expensive. If I downgrade to a 150kw, I could get away without upgrading part of the line to 100mm, which would be a substantial saving along with only needing a pole mounted transformer. Also the turbine should be 40k+ cheaper???

    I wish we could connect to the 33kv line as its right beside my site... if only.

    The site was assesed back in 2011 by an independant advisor. He described it as an "Ideal location for wind energy production on a plateau of high ground at an elevation of 132m above sea level". A desktop wind speed assesment produced a figure of 6.75m/s. But with some searching online some databases show the site as being as high as 8m/s...

    Any advice? It would be greatly appreciated.
    What decision did you eventually take zsnotdead?
    Anyone else have experience with either a 225kw or 150kw

    Thanks

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Mate of mine works for Livos energy. They're actively looking for wind turbine sites that are planning permission approved.
    They take on the site and any risks involved and setup a new turbine, deal with all grid connection issues, provide finance and pay the landowner a tidy index and output linked rent.
    Seems to be the ideal solution if you don't have a million spare cash or dont like life changing risks. Time and money spent negotiating with nie or viewing second hand turbines in Europe could be better spent giving them a ring.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by DMCC View Post
    Im currently in the same situation, weighing up options. It took me just over 3 years to get planning!! My original plan was to install a v27 but after the initial NIE site visit it looks like the 225kw grid connection will be 100k more expensive. If I downgrade to a 150kw, I could get away without upgrading part of the line to 100mm, which would be a substantial saving along with only needing a pole mounted transformer. Also the turbine should be 40k+ cheaper???

    I wish we could connect to the 33kv line as its right beside my site... if only.

    The site was assesed back in 2011 by an independant advisor. He described it as an "Ideal location for wind energy production on a plateau of high ground at an elevation of 132m above sea level". A desktop wind speed assesment produced a figure of 6.75m/s. But with some searching online some databases show the site as being as high as 8m/s...

    Any advice? It would be greatly appreciated.
    What decision did you eventually take zsnotdead?
    Anyone else have experience with either a 225kw or 150kw

    Thanks
    i went for a v27,doing the project my self. sourcing,refurbing,delivery, base etc etc.if you can afford to do your own project,dont rent the site.have you applied for grid connection,if not get this done as soon as possible,5k but this come off your final connection price. nie are painfully slow.

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Thanks for the replies.

    I'd prefer to do the project myself, if I can. Applied for the grid the day after I got planning, its now nearer to 6.5k for an initial quote. I have had an NIE guy out on site, and he showed me how they were thinking of connecting. Their plan was to go direct across a neighbours land to connect to the 11kva. But the same 11kva can be accessed from our own land but its a bit further. Had to go this way to avoid having to raise a 33kva line apparently.

    Rough initial estimates from him indicate that it would be around 100k cheaper if I opt to downgrade to a 150kw because I wouldn't have to upgrade 10 spans further down the line to 100mm.

    With it being a relatively high wind site I am leaning towards the v27 if I can get one, but it'll all depend on how friendly the bank is.

    Is your 225kw turning yet? Are you happy with the performance?

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by DMCC View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    I'd prefer to do the project myself, if I can. Applied for the grid the day after I got planning, its now nearer to 6.5k for an initial quote. I have had an NIE guy out on site, and he showed me how they were thinking of connecting. Their plan was to go direct across a neighbours land to connect to the 11kva. But the same 11kva can be accessed from our own land but its a bit further. Had to go this way to avoid having to raise a 33kva line apparently.

    Rough initial estimates from him indicate that it would be around 100k cheaper if I opt to downgrade to a 150kw because I wouldn't have to upgrade 10 spans further down the line to 100mm.

    With it being a relatively high wind site I am leaning towards the v27 if I can get one, but it'll all depend on how friendly the bank is.

    Is your 225kw turning yet? Are you happy with the performance?
    Fair play to you for trying to do the project yourself. If you've applied recently for the grid and have had them out on site it sounds promising that you are actually going to get quoted rather than get a letter saying "we won't quote you". You must be in one of the last remaining decent areas for grid connection. 100k extra for the grid for a 225/250kW is quite a bit more, plus you have to factor in the extra cost for the bigger machine.

    Depends how good the site is - I don't like the sound of the "desktop assessment" stating 6.75m/s. The majority of online databases for wind speeds over estimate the wind speeds as they are "unconstrained wind speeds", i.e. they don't take into account surrounding objects and landforms that can have a major impact on the actual speed. Best to knock off 10-20% from that figure to be safe.



    @zsnothead - you mentioned that you sourced the turbine yourself from the continent. When you add it all up, is there a saving to be had?

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    Re: 150kw Vs 225kw

    Quote Originally Posted by DMCC View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    I'd prefer to do the project myself, if I can. Applied for the grid the day after I got planning, its now nearer to 6.5k for an initial quote. I have had an NIE guy out on site, and he showed me how they were thinking of connecting. Their plan was to go direct across a neighbours land to connect to the 11kva. But the same 11kva can be accessed from our own land but its a bit further. Had to go this way to avoid having to raise a 33kva line apparently.

    Rough initial estimates from him indicate that it would be around 100k cheaper if I opt to downgrade to a 150kw because I wouldn't have to upgrade 10 spans further down the line to 100mm.

    With it being a relatively high wind site I am leaning towards the v27 if I can get one, but it'll all depend on how friendly the bank is.

    Is your 225kw turning yet? Are you happy with the performance?
    yes very good for a diy project the first time,large savings to be made. i had a quote for a v27 refurbished by the same firm as i used which came in at over 100k more

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