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Thread: Badger cull "Way behind target"

  1. #31
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    I should say that I read the above in the NBA news letter. Surely if this can be done in NI it can be done in the rest of the UK? Testing badgers is the most sensible thing to do, preferably test the setts and then they can be humanely destroyed. Or left in peace if they are clear. It's what happens to pets if they are terminally ill!

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy View Post
    I should say that I read the above in the NBA news letter. Surely if this can be done in NI it can be done in the rest of the UK? Testing badgers is the most sensible thing to do, preferably test the setts and then they can be humanely destroyed. Or left in peace if they are clear. It's what happens to pets if they are terminally ill!
    My understanding is that there isn't a stand alone test that would identify infected badgers reliably in the field. not in the time frame needed anyway. i'd be interested to know what type of test they're using to screen the trapped badgers.

    This sort of policy would be much more palatable to the public, whether it's any more humane or effective is another matter though.

  3. #33
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy View Post
    which would see badgers found to be diseased being removed, could begin in mid-2014.

    Well there's a new word for it that isn't likely to come up in a search

  4. #34
    Senior Member matthew's Avatar
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Despite advice on the perturbation effects of splitting up social groups of badgers, and despite reminders that if one tests positive within their humid, dark, underground ancestral home, the rest are likely to have TB as well, the NI initiative insists on testing INDIVIDUAL badgers within a group, in their TVR (Test, Vaccinate, Remove) strategy.
    So as well as being expensive and cumbersome, it risks causing perturbation. The stress of which, spreads disease.

    Now, if the social GROUP could be treated to TVR , using PCR to test the sett, after using sentinel slaughtered cattle, alpacas, sheep deer and pigs to locate problems, and badger territories confirmed, then that would be sensible.
    Both for grazing cattle and other mammals, but also targeting clean setts for vaccination. And it would cost less than trying to faff around with a dozen badgers marked 1 - 12, with some positive and some negative. Some vaccinated and some 'removed'. Leaving a shattered, possibly leaderless group. Maybe.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    Despite advice on the perturbation effects of splitting up social groups of badgers, and despite reminders that if one tests positive within their humid, dark, underground ancestral home, the rest are likely to have TB as well, the NI initiative insists on testing INDIVIDUAL badgers within a group, in their TVR (Test, Vaccinate, Remove) strategy.
    So as well as being expensive and cumbersome, it risks causing perturbation. The stress of which, spreads disease.

    Now, if the social GROUP could be treated to TVR , using PCR to test the sett, after using sentinel slaughtered cattle, alpacas, sheep deer and pigs to locate problems, and badger territories confirmed, then that would be sensible.
    Both for grazing cattle and other mammals, but also targeting clean setts for vaccination. And it would cost less than trying to faff around with a dozen badgers marked 1 - 12, with some positive and some negative. Some vaccinated and some 'removed'. Leaving a shattered, possibly leaderless group. Maybe.
    No "maybe " about it , the NI strategy will be harmful . Your plan is the only sensible one .
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  6. #36
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    if a badger is infected and has sores, what do they look like and where are they (usually)? Also, how far away does one usually venture from the set? How far apart are sets usually in high population areas?
    Not loaded ???'s, just curious. The ones killed the other night were a few hundred yards (half mile?) from me (all killed withing about 20 yards of each other and looked inferior to the ones I saw and didn't kill... What I saw had nice long and shiny hair and just looked healthy... The others with the sores looked dull and patchy looking. Sores were around the lower jaw and neck and looked kinda like an infected burn or cold sore raw with a kind of white/yellow puss.... Would have just thought from a fight or something if it had been only the one. Also plenty killed on the road in that area but none look as good as the ones I saw. They also see them in daylight in that area.
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Any sentinel cattle nearby Daven? Need to skin test the cattle and if any react then you kill them and leave the sick badgers just like we do in the UK

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    Any sentinel cattle nearby Daven? Need to skin test the cattle and if any react then you kill them and leave the sick badgers just like we do in the UK
    I don't know.... Stock in that area is kept indoors/under roof... There are a thousand or so hogs on the lease (in a building) but I believe there are plenty of cattle also by the smell (much better than hogs )..... Maybe they don't worry because they are locked up????? I'll be getting a smaller caliber and hunting badger when it gets colder, do I need to worry about the disease (if that's what the sores are) bothering me?
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  9. #39
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    do I need to worry about the disease (if that's what the sores are) bothering me?
    If it's TB then indeed you do.

  10. #40
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    if a badger is infected and has sores, what do they look like and where are they (usually)? Also, how far away does one usually venture from the set? How far apart are sets usually in high population areas?
    Badgers with TB are often excluded by their group, wander further and often take up residence near farm buildings for food and shelter. They can travel 10 - 15 miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    Not loaded ???'s, just curious.
    The ones killed the other night were a few hundred yards (half mile?) from me (all killed with in about 20 yards of each other and looked inferior to the ones I saw and didn't kill... What I saw had nice long and shiny hair and just looked healthy... The others with the sores looked dull and patchy looking. Sores were around the lower jaw and neck and looked kinda like an infected burn or cold sore raw with a kind of white/yellow puss....
    Abscesses are a common sight in badgers with TB, but it could be something completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    Would have just thought from a fight or something if it had been only the one. Also plenty killed on the road in that area but none look as good as the ones I saw. They also see them in daylight in that area.
    Both the last two points are important. In our area, the big breakdowns started with seeing many more road kills. And as a 'shy, nocturnal animal ' badgers are not generally seen in the day time. Or shouldn't be.

    Does your Animal Health dept., have a policy of examining road kill or found dead on farmland, in your part of Germany?
    Or is it a case of don't look, don't find?

    There are emerging problems near the Bavarian Alps in cattle, both from deer on the alpine pastures, and badgers.

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...itzerland.html

    and in other parts of Europe:

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...r-picture.html

  11. #41
    Senior Member daven's Avatar
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    Badgers with TB are often excluded by their group, wander further and often take up residence near farm buildings for food and shelter. They can travel 10 - 15 miles.



    Abscesses are a common sight in badgers with TB, but it could be something completely different.



    Both the last two points are important. In our area, the big breakdowns started with seeing many more road kills. And as a 'shy, nocturnal animal ' badgers are not generally seen in the day time. Or shouldn't be.

    Does your Animal Health dept., have a policy of examining road kill or found dead on farmland, in your part of Germany?
    Or is it a case of don't look, don't find?

    There are emerging problems near the Bavarian Alps in cattle, both from deer on the alpine pastures, and badgers.

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...itzerland.html

    and in other parts of Europe:

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...r-picture.html

    I'll suggest that they have the next ones tested... Whether or not they listen is another thing but I don't think I'll be hunting that area again.... We have a badger set less than a mile from the house and I have seen 2 in the 15 years I've been here and I was waiting/looking for them........ The area I am talking about is 35 miles away and you always see them in that area with plenty of roadkill.....
    Maybe just a case of overpopulation ??? The sets are on a big property belonging to a company (Knauf) and nobody can hunt there except a chosen few that aren't the type to care about badger population..... Pretty much the safe haven for all game in the area... Comes out and does the crop damage then runs back home.... Disease or not, just the numbers are enough to worry about I guess.... I wanted a few skins when the weather is colder but am worried now.......
    Be your self and speak your mind. Them that matter won't mind and the others don't matter

  12. #42
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    I'll suggest that they have the next ones tested... Whether or not they listen is another thing but I don't think I'll be hunting that area again....
    I wanted a few skins when the weather is colder but am worried now.......
    I wish our daft lot were 'worried' about the upspill of this dreadful disease daven. They seem to waft a comfort blanket that TB is 'easily cured by antibiotics' these days. Or worse still, 'it's a disease of cattle because it's called bovine tuberculosis' .... so it can't hurt me.
    Reckless and dangerous. ( imho of course.)

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    And the UK is to give a £1billion to The Global Fund -

    http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...ulosis-malaria

    "Britain is to give £1bn over three years to The Global Fund to Fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria, Justine Greening has announced at the United Nations in New York.

    Speaking at the UN general assembly meeting, Greening said: "Aids, TB and malaria are among the world's biggest killers despite being entirely preventable and treatable."

    Perhaps some of that £1billion will come back to deal with our wildlife reservoir

  14. #44
    Senior Member matthew's Avatar
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Courier View Post
    And the UK is to give a £1billion to The Global Fund -

    http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...ulosis-malaria

    "Britain is to give £1bn over three years to The Global Fund to Fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria, Justine Greening has announced at the United Nations in New York.

    Speaking at the UN general assembly meeting, Greening said: "Aids, TB and malaria are among the world's biggest killers despite being entirely preventable and treatable."

    Perhaps some of that £1billion will come back to deal with our wildlife reservoir



    Not if rent-a-party Lib Dims come back hand in hand with Labour. Creature Creagh has nailed Labour's colours to the mast at the party conference:

    http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/ll-s...#axzz2fn8ZyaJQ

    This is not a a victory for badgers at all, it's a victory for a Grade 3 zoonotic pathogen called Tuberculosis.

    And emerging from this crazy polemic is another long running farce known as 'vaccination', which looks set to rival the RBCT as an exercise in prevarication and job creation.

    http://bovinetb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/...uring-lie.html

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    One good thing to come out of this trial in my opinion is how little out cry there was in the end , all the empty threats for years of mass uprising of the public etc by the extremist have come to virtually nothing , if anything since the trial began journalist have looked into it a bit more and come out with a much more balanced view of controlling TB in wildlife , listening to programs like any questions and such I would say the extremists have been shown to be just that including Brian May . Sure you're never going to convince the extremist of anything other than their own view ever, but future governments will surely now look at all the options available in a much more balanced way without the fear of been thrown out of office for taking hard decisions, the fact that Ed Millaband has latched on to over turning the cull has almost strengthened the cause for continuing it as he is portrayed ever increasingly as a nut case Michael Foot type by the main stream media and will clutch at anything if he thinks it will win him a few votes .
    On the other side I tend to agree that shooting in the open is a very slow and expensive way to control badger population and that may deem the trial a failure,let's hope not

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...cull-bovine-tb

    The Guardian is claiming the Somerset cull has killed only half the required number of badgers.

    Anyone heard different?

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...cull-bovine-tb

    The Guardian is claiming the Somerset cull has killed only half the required number of badgers.

    Anyone heard different?
    The NE License doesn't appear to specify whether the required mathematical number of badgers were meant to be dispatched over 4 years, or in the first foray. So, taking out about half in the 42 nights of Year 1 could be seen as 'success'. For sure, this will be spun any which way Defra want it to go.

    Until the data is in and numbers accounted for, no one can say. The main aim was 'is free shooting a human way to dispatch badgers'?

    Maybe the antics of the antis (badgerists) caused many stripeys to pack their bags and move on holiday for the duration? Who knows.

    The point about fracturing an endemically infected population leading to a spike in the incidence of cattle TB is valid. It happened during culls disrupted before 1997, and it was a consequence intended to happen in the RBCT 8 nights of cage trapping, once a year if you were lucky.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    The NE License doesn't appear to specify whether the required mathematical number of badgers were meant to be dispatched over 4 years, or in the first foray. So, taking out about half in the 42 nights of Year 1 could be seen as 'success'. For sure, this will be spun any which way Defra want it to go.
    I'm sure it will, especially if they are determined to carry on with it, even if the policy appears to be flawed, see also the contiguous cull during FMD.

    Until the data is in and numbers accounted for, no one can say. The main aim was 'is free shooting a human way to dispatch badgers'?
    True, but if the figure is reliable, it's not encouraging.

    Maybe the antics of the antis (badgerists) caused many stripeys to pack their bags and move on holiday for the duration? Who knows.
    All those people interfering with setts has to have had some bearing on the result, to my mind.

    The point about fracturing an endemically infected population leading to a spike in the incidence of cattle TB is valid. It happened during culls disrupted before 1997, and it was a consequence intended to happen in the RBCT 8 nights of cage trapping, once a year if you were lucky.
    A half hearted or poorly conceived culling strategy will do more harm than good, this is true. I'm always an advocate of cock up over conspiracy. In this case the govt seem to have the will to proceed, but IMO they're pushing the wrong strategy. I had hoped that if it had shown some benefit it might have given a mandate to continue with other more suitable culling strategies, if it turns into an almighty cock up, i suspect the opposite will be true and any sort of culling strategy will be off the table for good, and what does that leave us with? other than the prospect of early retirement.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Whichever way it goes , the government are now aware that the argument is definitely going in favour of a cull.
    there has been no mass disobedience which was always the main concern.
    THe people like Brian May and many others had hoped someone would get shot.
    this would have certainly led to the abandonment.

    luckily the people with biggest mouths kept well out of the way , they were never going to risk their skin,
    hoping it would be some idiot student just like the Greenpeace protestors

    thankfully as far as I am aware the lanes of Somerset are not crawling with wounded badgers, except those hit by cars.

    the only fly, I can see now is a Labour win in 2015
    it is highly unlikely TB numbers will have had the chance to drop significantly by then , and a future labour DEFRA minister could easily take the excuse to abandon the cull
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Not sure if its possible ,but I think there is a need to estimate “What’s Left” as well as what’s been culled.

    I don’t know when the original count was done , but I do know that the wet autumn and very cold spring has had a noticeable effect on the badger numbers on my farm ( -25% to -30 % as an unscientific guess) and yes I do think it was just the season , not outside influences.


    While on the subject of numbers what on earth has happened to The National Badger Count results ,they were due ages ago?

  21. #51
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
    If it's TB then indeed you do.
    Just ran across the guy that has the lease I was hunting on today.... He said that livestock in the area is routinely tested and OK and that they had a vet hunting the place and killed a badger with big sores that said they were just abscesses from parasites and would go away in winter. You can hunt them 3 months out of the year here. Folks around here don't really go after them, but the general idea is, if you see one in daylight, kill it. If you see them in a group, kill as many as you can but leave one if possible.
    Hope things work out for you folks....
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Whichever way it goes , the government are now aware that the argument is definitely going in favour of a cull.
    there has been no mass disobedience which was always the main concern.
    THe people like Brian May and many others had hoped someone would get shot.
    this would have certainly led to the abandonment.

    luckily the people with biggest mouths kept well out of the way , they were never going to risk their skin,
    hoping it would be some idiot student just like the Greenpeace protestors

    thankfully as far as I am aware the lanes of Somerset are not crawling with wounded badgers, except those hit by cars.

    the only fly, I can see now is a Labour win in 2015
    it is highly unlikely TB numbers will have had the chance to drop significantly by then , and a future labour DEFRA minister could easily take the excuse to abandon the cull

    Whilst i think Dr May is probably sincere, if misguided, in his beliefs, i suspect for many it's simply another stick to beat the tories with, or a handy bandwagon to promote their own profiles or agendas.

    Take Domin*c Dye_r, (redacted to prevent vanity googling), former paid lobbyist for the pesticide industry, and a curious advocate of all things wildlife having previously been an apologist for the bee killing planet rapers at Monsanto, he's obviously angling for some sort of official role with Labour at the next election. then there's the attention seekers and fearless internet iconoclasts like steve 'not a farmer' jones and Dave 'let's vaccinate so i won't have to do any more TB tests' Purser.

    I can't help but think if such people were genuinely interested in getting farmers to see things their way they'd be on here discussing the issue with us, not on twitter playing to the gallery.I had a massive argument with Purser AKA @badgerfriendly last night on twitter, see here, if you can be arsed:

    https://twitter.com/Cownumber62/stat...05350149722113

    You'll see he's a big advocate of cattle BCG vaccination, but studiously avoids addressing the issue of the vaccine not actually working very well.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Twitters badger apologists seem very quiet today, the reshuffle at DEfRA has not been to their liking. The media has new stories and isn't responding to their endless Eco bleating.
    this weekend they are planning a march in David Cameron's constituency to mark the end of the cull, if that's the damp squib most of their gatherings have been they might just be in trouble.
    Any one want a bet that DimDom D%yer appears as a labour candidate at the next election?, he speaks well, if you admire the performances at Nuremberg in the 30s and 40s
    He is a master of spin and disinformation , perfectly suited to a career in the Labour Party .

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    Senior Member le bon paysan's Avatar
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...d-8867426.html

    Its a success but numbers were halved after the bad weather last winter

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    Just ran across the guy that has the lease I was hunting on today.... He said that livestock in the area is routinely tested and OK and that they had a vet hunting the place and killed a badger with big sores that said they were just abscesses from parasites and would go away in winter. You can hunt them 3 months out of the year here. Folks around here don't really go after them, but the general idea is, if you see one in daylight, kill it. If you see them in a group, kill as many as you can but leave one if possible.
    Hope things work out for you folks....
    Could be "big sores" be mange? Possibly with a secondary infection? That seems to be the controlling factor around here, it is highly infectious and badgers and foxes are known to share setts.

    The way to control badgers is the way it has been done for centuries -- by removing protection. If it didn't work, they'd be extinct.

  26. #56
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Hard to tell. These looked pretty nasty... open and pussy.... They seem to have a real problem (population) in that area tho because they are still seeing/killing them at 3 or 4 a week....
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by le bon paysan View Post
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...d-8867426.html

    Its a success but numbers were halved after the bad weather last winter
    Maybe the level of bTB infection in the badgers is becoming a self-limiting factor and they are suffocating themselves, drowning in their own pus, poor buggers

    Wouldn't wish that on any living creature, much better a quick death.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by le bon paysan View Post
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...d-8867426.html

    Its a success but numbers were halved after the bad weather last winter
    There are some very "special" people contributing to the comments on that article.

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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by le bon paysan View Post
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...d-8867426.html

    Its a success but numbers were halved after the bad weather last winter


    From the comments underneath the article . A " Dr " would suggest a level of intelligence ....???


    DrMartinAndrews2 hours ago


    When is the Independent going to use honest language? This senseless slaughter is not a 'cull' any more than machine-gunning a group of small children would be. These are intelligent, sentient individuals who live in tight extended family groups. The thugs responsible for this pointless bloodshed are destroying relationships, killing brothers and sisters and maiming those individuals whom they can't see properly in the dark.
    The only upside is that the slaughter will spread bTB and put some of these blood-thirsty farmers out of business.
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    Re: Badger cull "Way behind target"

    Quote Originally Posted by arf View Post
    From the comments underneath the article . A " Dr " would suggest a level of intelligence ....???
    Like "Dr" Brian May you mean?

    I know quite a few people who are Doctors, both of medicine and PhDs. Academic qualification in one field is no guarantee of expertise in another, or even of having basic common sense.

    The other thing i've noticed is that the ones who bandy their title around, particularly in internet forums, are generally pompous bellends of the highest order.

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