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Thread: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

  1. #31
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by LALANS View Post
    Phil
    We should meet up for a pint or 10 we could have a cracking discussion.
    The point here is best use of limited resources. Tying up precious capital on machinery which could be hired far more cheaply is the point. Obviously theyoung man in question has the bare minimum required rest brought in.
    Here's an example just to show how some folk lose the focus.
    A few years ago I was asked by a bank to visit a farmer who they were worried about as his O/D was getting out of control. 350K at the time and little chance of getting it reduced. Paying +3 over base or 8%.
    Drew up a plan and cashflows which were to be monitored monthly. Got bank off his back, or so I thought. Went back after a month and O/D had gone up by 20K, Should have dropped by same amount if plan had been followed. Turns out farmer, I shall call him Shit for Brains, gad bought a new muck spreader. When I pointed out that he only needed it for max 5 days a year and the local contractor was a lot cheaper he gave the old 'but what if I can't get him when the weather suits crap' (you certainly won't get him if you phone up the night before is what I thought) S for B could comprehend that the machine was costing him 1600/annum yet by using a contractor would have cost him 500 plus diesel in addition the contractor provided a loader as well. Wouldn't listen.
    Came back the following month to check progress. Fuck me the O/D had risen another 40K. S for B had only gone and bought a new tractor. Old one wasn't man enough for the new spreader and JD had given him a 5% discount if he paid 'cash' Pointed out that by paying 'cash' as he saw it was costing him 3200 in interest pa plus bank charges, it had put him up to his limit and that the bank would pull the plug if it continued.
    So here we were a new tractor , a new spreader and O/D maxed out.
    Harvest comes, bank says 'hoy we want this O/D reduced'. Wheat to sell at harvest. Pretty shit trade at the time ~85-90/tonne but if you could hold it until Dec looking at 120+/tonne. No wriggle room so wheat sold into a buyers market, fire sale if you like, for 80/tonne. Had he been able to wait, which would have been possible if he hadn't pissed 60K against a wall, he would have netted an extra 20K. O/D would have been 320K instead of 400K and would have saved 6K+ in interest.

    I have more examples such as this so. The young man here is to be commended in wanting to farm in his own right but such examples as above are a lesson, yes these guys were farming in their own right but it wasn't long before the bank was dictating.


    In any event advice is freely given whether folk take it is entirely up to them.
    All very true but as an 'advisor' I am surprised you have missed the point of the OP's question. He is going to juggle 2 jobs, it is no good to him if he spoils job A by job B being under resourced . At this point you will say use contractors then or hire tackle, but for those of us that have been in the real world hire gear is to pick up and return, you will not have any spares in house for the machine and the hirer may not either. Contractors are fine but they are to watch, most if they think no-one is looking will hit a higher gear or two higher , spray on a day unsuitable on a farm where they are being watched, leave gates open , need seed taken to field etc etc. I also firmly believe that you never know your crops till you drive through them. Given that he is an agronomist the plus points should be obvious. In this guy's case , assuming that the farm is in his family and assuming that because he is being offered the reins he might end up with the business an extra 20k spent on tackle is neither here nor there.

  2. #32
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Richaroundwash View Post
    Hello all, could anyone steer me in the right direction please. I have access to a small family farm with members wanting to take a back seat. My idea is to help them do that, i am passionate farming and wish to carry it on somehow but my issue is financing it sensibly. I need to make investment of one or two major bits of kit in order to update and do the job more efficiantly but I dont have the capital to start the ball rolling. I have earmarked one or two sensible second hand bits of kit that would do the job fine, if I could only pay for it. Has anyone bright ideas on how I could do thisand who best to approach? I am from a family where borrowing was never an option and we always pay for what we get, hence the need for investment and little knowledge about this subject. Any sensible impartial advice would be much appreciated.
    Maybe I have read this incorrectly, but does the OP not say 'a family farm' to me that doesn't necessarily mean his family, if this is the case then maybe some of the advice that is being given would be different. Nobody wants to invest too much in getting soil balanced and buying equipment for land when you don't know the future plans.

  3. #33
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    if I was the op I would grab the opportunity with doth hands, I had a similar problem years ago, but was determined to do it.
    mine was done on an overdraught, probably not the best way, but that's the only option I had.
    work out what you definitely need this year, I know its hard to make a decision, but you have to. then look around and see what you can afford!
    let the other things be contracted out the first year, then next year do the same and maybe try to buy new trailed machinery if you can, it will last you for most of your life if its looked after.
    another thing I do is if I need machinery that is not used that much is, buy it new or second-hand, use it and then sell it straight away on e bay.
    as long as your sensible with your pricing, it will go straight away, remember if you get what you paid for it, its cost you nothing to use it!
    the main thing is to get it into your head that it will take you a few years to build the machinery up, if you try and do it too fast you will end up in trouble.
    so have a set amount of money that you can afford each year and stick to it every year if you can, as has been said before you need a bit of back up money for a rainy day, so don't use the whole overdraught that's not sensible. but it can be done and has been done by many.
    its a very fulfilling thing doing it yourself without contractors, I accept some don't believe it is, but personally that's what I like about farming, its doing the job yourself.
    be careful with prime movers(tractors, sprayers) these machines can break you if you don't make the correct decisions.
    there is a bit of advice my father gave to me and its this:
    if you feed the farm(fert,muck,seed,)it will pay you back, it has and I always make sure the ground comes first, good luck fella.

  4. #34
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Thanks everyone, good points being made. Most of the kit available for rollover to carry on being used, is workable and adequate . However we have two ploughs, neither which are large enough for the tractor we have, and plough unlevel. For me its a critical part getting the land turned over properly to start with hence why i need a fresh suitable one.
    Yes as said, make use of what i have already, which is why I dont want to throw the oppourtunity away... i am lucky to have an area to start off with and some gear to do it! Lots of people would give their right leg to have a leg up to start farming.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Are both the ploughs twisted or just set up wrong, demo a few new ones will be the cheapest way sometimes when you have no money you just have to struggle on with what you have for a bit longer thats what I have to keep telling myself anyway.

    Edit sell both the old ploughs and anything else surplus and use the money to change into something you want, wont have cost anything then

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by charlieboy View Post
    Are both the ploughs twisted or just set up wrong, demo a few new ones will be the cheapest way sometimes when you have no money you just have to struggle on with what you have for a bit longer thats what I have to keep telling myself anyway.

    Edit sell both the old ploughs and anything else surplus and use the money to change into something you want, wont have cost anything then
    A pair of twisted ploughs wont bring in much.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    A pair of twisted ploughs wont bring in much.
    doesnt seem to bother people in farm sales, could have all new metal on them, must be pretty unlucky to twist two

  8. #38
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedyears View Post
    All very true but as an 'advisor' I am surprised you have missed the point of the OP's question. He is going to juggle 2 jobs, it is no good to him if he spoils job A by job B being under resourced . At this point you will say use contractors then or hire tackle, but for those of us that have been in the real world hire gear is to pick up and return, you will not have any spares in house for the machine and the hirer may not either. Contractors are fine but they are to watch, most if they think no-one is looking will hit a higher gear or two higher , spray on a day unsuitable on a farm where they are being watched, leave gates open , need seed taken to field etc etc. I also firmly believe that you never know your crops till you drive through them. Given that he is an agronomist the plus points should be obvious. In this guy's case , assuming that the farm is in his family and assuming that because he is being offered the reins he might end up with the business an extra 20k spent on tackle is neither here nor there.
    Well hit me with a stick and call me Nigel! This is the most ridiculous and stupid comment I think I have read for many's a long day. We can all be stupid but this is just abusing the privilege.
    Juggling two jobs makes it essential that our Young Man's time is optimised. All the above comment does is list the 99 spurious reasons not to utilise a contractor and ignores the 1 good reason for doing so. If this chap is marching he's not fighting.
    All of the above horrors are easily avoided by choosing the correct contractor and communicating with him timeously and frequently. There are a lot of v good guys out there who do an excellent job. If a contractor gets plenty of notice, all information required, everything needed to do the job is on hand and importantly gets paid promptly you will be the farm he comes to first and looks after.
    Having had an off farm job for a good number of years I have found that it is very difficult to be a servant of two masters. Your 'getting the job done argument' is just bullshit. How can you get the job done at the right time if you're away working for some one else? If I were an employer I'd be pretty pissed if I was paying good money to someone who was more interested in knocking off early to do his own work.
    Do the arithmetic. You cannot re-metal a big plough, pay for it and still be cheaper (unless ploughing a huge acreage) than the rates charged by a contractor, simples. Also remember you get a skilled man thrown in, which if this is discount from the charge makes the economics owning your own on a modest acreage even more questionable.
    The brain is like an umbrella it works best when open.
    Do the sums young man and let your head rule. Facts are chiels that winnae ding
    Last edited by LALANS; 20-10-13 at 03:24 PM.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedyears View Post
    Given that he is an agronomist the plus points should be obvious. In this guy's case , assuming that the farm is in his family and assuming that because he is being offered the reins he might end up with the business an extra 20k spent on tackle is neither here nor there.
    Given that he is an agronomist he will surely know the most reliable spraying contractors in the area and those contractors should be touting for his business and where that could lead them with the obvious recommendation of being chosen by a respected agronomist. Or he may already work with a non-contractor neighbour who has oodles of spare capacity with his own sprayer and 300 acres extra on a co-operative basis would be a mere fleabite.

    There are not that many 300 acre all arable farms where 20k is neither here nor there.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Courier View Post
    Given that he is an agronomist he will surely know the most reliable spraying contractors in the area and those contractors should be touting for his business and where that could lead them with the obvious recommendation of being chosen by a respected agronomist. Or he may already work with a non-contractor neighbour who has oodles of spare capacity with his own sprayer and 300 acres extra on a co-operative basis would be a mere fleabite.

    There are not that many 300 acre all arable farms where 20k is neither here nor there.
    I am assuming, perhaps wrongly , that 'the family farm' hints at ownership or at least a long term tenancy. If it is owned then he has at his disposal potentially around the 3million pounds worth of equity. farmland is supposed to be increasing by 40% in the next 5 years and has doubled over the last 10. Whilst that doesnt' mean that there is a profit generated it certainly does mean that 20k is neither here nor there.
    Whatever , that's me on the side 10-4 good buddy.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedyears View Post
    I am assuming, perhaps wrongly , that 'the family farm' hints at ownership or at least a long term tenancy. If it is owned then he has at his disposal potentially around the 3million pounds worth of equity. farmland is supposed to be increasing by 40% in the next 5 years and has doubled over the last 10. Whilst that doesnt' mean that there is a profit generated it certainly does mean that 20k is neither here nor there.
    Whatever , that's me on the side 10-4 good buddy.
    Yea,but surely that so called 3 mil is only useful if he sells the farm, which is probably not his decision as it is a family farm, and the fact that the value of the lland owned changes over the years has absolutely no relevance to how profitable that land is in terms of cropping revenues and returns.
    therefore 20k remains a significant figure as it is probably money that he does not have.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by LALANS View Post
    Well hit me with a stick and call me Nigel! This is the most ridiculous and stupid comment I think I have read for many's a long day. We can all be stupid but this is just abusing the privilege.
    Juggling two jobs makes it essential that our Young Man's time is optimised. All the above comment does is list the 99 spurious reasons not to utilise a contractor and ignores the 1 good reason for doing so. If this chap is marching he's not fighting.
    All of the above horrors are easily avoided by choosing the correct contractor and communicating with him timeously and frequently. There are a lot of v good guys out there who do an excellent job. If a contractor gets plenty of notice, all information required, everything needed to do the job is on hand and importantly gets paid promptly you will be the farm he comes to first and looks after.
    Having had an off farm job for a good number of years I have found that it is very difficult to be a servant of two masters. Your 'getting the job done argument' is just bullshit. How can you get the job done at the right time if you're away working for some one else? If I were an employer I'd be pretty pissed if I was paying good money to someone who was more interested in knocking off early to do his own work.
    Do the arithmetic. You cannot re-metal a big plough, pay for it and still be cheaper (unless ploughing a huge acreage) than the rates charged by a contractor, simples. Also remember you get a skilled man thrown in, which if this is discount from the charge makes the economics owning your own on a modest acreage even more questionable.
    The brain is like an umbrella it works best when open.
    Do the sums young man and let your head rule. Facts are chiels that winnae ding

    Much of what you say is very true, however, you state it in such an obnoxiously arrogant way that I am amazed you have any customers to advise at all!!

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Richaroundwash View Post
    Thanks everyone, good points being made. Most of the kit available for rollover to carry on being used, is workable and adequate . However we have two ploughs, neither which are large enough for the tractor we have, and plough unlevel. For me its a critical part getting the land turned over properly to start with hence why i need a fresh suitable one.
    Yes as said, make use of what i have already, which is why I dont want to throw the oppourtunity away... i am lucky to have an area to start off with and some gear to do it! Lots of people would give their right leg to have a leg up to start farming.

    I know many agronomists who also farm, most are agents rather than fully employed. However, all the ones I know either use contractors for the majority of the jobs, or are in a joint contract farming agreement with a local farm.
    I agree that a good plough is the cornerstone of good arable farming, however it is also very time consuming and costly, and no one can do more than one job at a time.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by stu b View Post
    Much of what you say is very true, however, you state it in such an obnoxiously arrogant way that I am amazed you have any customers to advise at all!!
    Fair point.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    The way some do it around here is this:

    Primary cultivation self. Drill by contractors combi, rolling seed cart self, spray fert self, contractor combine, corn cart/yard self, straw mostly sold in swath. Hedge cut self, bit of contracting. Let taty land out, rotation of spuds, wheat, w barley, osr/sbeans/beet , ww/sbarley, s or w barley, back to spuds.

    One bigger older tractor, one smaller newer tractor, old telehandler (depends on workload) nowt wrong with old kit, well looked after. Older Agribuggy or similar as cheap as a decent set of row crop wheels for a modern tractor,much handier too.

    Go for it!

    Spud

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Fair point.
    I'm with Lalans on this one but agree, could be put over a bit more....um....dunno.But sometimes, rarely debt is good. Pretty much all other times it is slavery. Avoid in every way if at all possible.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I'm with Lalans on this one but agree, could be put over a bit more....um....dunno.But sometimes, rarely debt is good. Pretty much all other times it is slavery. Avoid in every way if at all possible.
    I know plenty of farmers that share the view that debt must be avoided at all cost, a lot of these farmers potter about with clapped out kit (some of which really shouldn't be in use...let alone on the road), they nail plastic sacks over holes in windows & hold their trousers up with baler cord...and don't even afford their long suffering wives a reliable form of transport !
    Trouble is some of these same farmers pay significant tax bills year in year out...& don't seem to bat an eye-lid ?
    They just don't seem to understand the fact that they could (without going over the top) have a bit of good reliable kit (that is safe to use)...sheds that don't leak & a half decent 4x4 for the missus - and probably cut their tax bill in half in the process !

    I guess they are happier being a slave to HMRC...than they are to the bank, machinery suppliers, builders...or their own wife ?


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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I'm with Lalans on this one but agree, could be put over a bit more....um....dunno.But sometimes, rarely debt is good. Pretty much all other times it is slavery. Avoid in every way if at all possible.
    If borrowing money sensibly allows you to go into business, provide a living and allows a regular increase in net worth, then the original loan can be regarded as an asset rather than a liability.

    But if borrowing money means that you will dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.....................................

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    To fully equip a sub 300 acre farm with good reliable and really fresh second hand equipment could easily run away with 1000 per acre.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    I'm not saying that debt is always bad but I will say that for most people, most of the time, it is. Because they can't manage it. They can't see the bigger picture, work out the tax etc. etc. Seriously they can't. Most farmers consider themselves to be excellent businessmen because farmers are, on the whole, ignorant and arrogant. I speak as one from farming stock. They are not good businessmen on the whole. Some are, some are very good. But my view is that most of the current crop of farmers have either increased the farm debt to huge levels for their kids to deal with or have already sold off most of the farm to pay for previous mistakes.

    I'm generalising and I stand by it. If you can put a plan together, work out the cost, the depreciation, the yield, the allowances and deductions over time then good for you. Go for it. Most farmers (and I mean the 60 somethings who own the land and berate their college educated kids for being smart-arses) can barely string together a proper sentence, never mind form a business plan. I speak as I find. That's all.

  21. #51

    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    To fully equip a sub 300 acre farm with good reliable and really fresh second hand equipment could easily run away with 1000 per acre.
    Interested to know your breakdown for the 300k spend?

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I know plenty of farmers that share the view that debt must be avoided at all cost, a lot of these farmers potter about with clapped out kit (some of which really shouldn't be in use...let alone on the road), they nail plastic sacks over holes in windows & hold their trousers up with baler cord...and don't even afford their long suffering wives a reliable form of transport !
    Trouble is some of these same farmers pay significant tax bills year in year out...& don't seem to bat an eye-lid ?
    They just don't seem to understand the fact that they could (without going over the top) have a bit of good reliable kit (that is safe to use)...sheds that don't leak & a half decent 4x4 for the missus - and probably cut their tax bill in half in the process !

    I guess they are happier being a slave to HMRC...than they are to the bank, machinery suppliers, builders...or their own wife ?

    I think you've lost the plot!
    if you think your typical tight arse farmer will be paying money to the tax man if he can get away with it, your barmy.
    in my experience of them the cupboard draws are full of cash, cash rules with them and they don't declare half of it.
    they have more money stashed away out of sight than most of us ever see in one go.
    just because someone drives around in an old landy that he bought new 20 years ago and paid cash for and owes him nothing, you think he's mad.
    maybe the fella you advised to buy the brand new landy on tick for 220 a month for the next 5 years and will end up paying a hell of a lot more in interest along the way is better, but old tight arse will be laughing, he wouldn't pay over the odds for anything and never has in his life!

    you don't have to be running around in an old fergy with no cab, some people find it actually cheaper to pay on the nose the old fashioned way, it might not be popular these days, but it works well and always has.
    if I pay 5000 for a machine, its 5000, not 6000 for the same thing on tick with the interest added.
    there is nothing wrong with sensible borrowing and hp, we all do it, but its not the only way.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    half decent 4x4 for the missus
    Not a bad swap in some peoples' opinions.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Agree with LaLans on a variety of points, but this is a fantastic opportunity for yourself i would love to be in the same position. The only advise albeit it limited i have is dont go mad in the first year or two work gradually in over 3-5 have a business plan worked out for an average year scenario so you are left with wiggle room. My father and i have gone down the OD route before in another business (not ag related) and it can get concerning at times, thankfully we managed to clear it with just good management and tightening our belts but not being miserly.

    An observation i have made is if you have money you can make money, but those who have to borrow money to make money can struggle down to the fact the borrower is servant to the lender and he has to get paid first. That sounds a bit stupid i know but just my thoughts. A friend of mine who runs a very successful frozen foods business told me if sits down and does the sums he looks for any investment to pay for itself in 5 years. He would borrow something at x amount of million service the interest for a set period of time and pay it off in one go. But i do not know if that is the correct way either.

    All the best anyway, like i have said before i would love to have the same opportunity

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    What many people don't realise about debt is that it has to be re-paid. If you have something going, nurture it and expand it 'organically' for want of a better word. If it doesn't need all your land then put the rest out on license for 10 months and see where you are the next year. Don't look in on a business you haven't run, see how it could be done better and borrow the money to take it over. You won't know the half of it. I speak from painful experience.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by banjo View Post
    I think you've lost the plot!
    if you think your typical tight arse farmer will be paying money to the tax man if he can get away with it, your barmy.
    in my experience of them the cupboard draws are full of cash, cash rules with them and they don't declare half of it.
    they have more money stashed away out of sight than most of us ever see in one go.
    just because someone drives around in an old landy that he bought new 20 years ago and paid cash for and owes him nothing, you think he's mad.
    maybe the fella you advised to buy the brand new landy on tick for 220 a month for the next 5 years and will end up paying a hell of a lot more in interest along the way is better, but old tight arse will be laughing, he wouldn't pay over the odds for anything and never has in his life!

    you don't have to be running around in an old fergy with no cab, some people find it actually cheaper to pay on the nose the old fashioned way, it might not be popular these days, but it works well and always has.
    if I pay 5000 for a machine, its 5000, not 6000 for the same thing on tick with the interest added.
    there is nothing wrong with sensible borrowing and hp, we all do it, but its not the only way.
    Steady up...the winky smiley should have been a bit of a give away that my comments were very much tongue in cheek ? Sorry if I "struck a nerve".

    And there are those that would no doubt argue that I never had the plot in the first place.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Courier View Post
    Not a bad swap in some peoples' opinions.


    And, no doubt, some would settle for a beaten up old Landy...whilst other would want a RR.

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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    If your issue with Lalans is the way he delivers his message, then you need to look in the mirror and wonder if your not a bit soft for this game. I think he's hit the nail on the head.

    I have a friend who works in finance, and he loves farmers. Because they generally have no business sense *whatsoever*. They see shiny mettle at the shows, do the 'Man Maths' and convince themselves of every excuse to buy it. He happily obliges because unlike any other industry where the margins over cost are wafer thin, farmers win a lottery of 357 Euros/Ha every year, and thats the difference between commercial reality and 'cloud cuckoo land' business principles.
    And when the *really* crap ones go bust, they can call the debt in on the land not the kit (owner occupier) or charge extortionate rates from day 1 to cover the likely risk (tenants). The trick is milking all the payments from the farm without killing the cow completely.

    Richard, you have one tractor, and you only have 1 backside to sit on its seat. That tractor will sit in a shed for 10 months of the year gathering dust, it doesnt need another one for company. If you cant double shift the existing one with available labour (part time existing farmer keeping his hand in etc, while you do the day job) then hire in a 'man with tractor' to keep the machinery costs proportional to the work done day by day and season by season. Cash flow without financial indebtedness.

    How much security of tenure do you have?
    Have you got everything in writing?
    Do you know for certain that you have the ability to use or sell the existing kit?
    Do you have the financial clout to finance a growing crop all the way through from sowing through the lean month to payment 28 days after uplift?
    Its amazing what 7 days can do to a decision to purchase new kit. When the adrenaline rush has gone, you look back at the cost versus benefits and think "**** that" .

    Go for it, but remember, "No one ever said it was gonna be easy".

  29. #59
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    [QUOTE=Panzer IV;200386]If your issue with Lalans is the way he delivers his message, then you need to look in the mirror and wonder if your not a bit soft for this game.


    Nonsense. Talking sense and delivering it in a pleasant manner should not be mutually exclusive.
    It's not about being soft it is about having respect for other people even if their views are different to your own.
    i agree with many of his points, just not the fact that he has to be so condescending when delivering his message.

    and before you accuse me of being a farmer your banking friend loves, I have zero borrowing.

  30. #60
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    Re: Sensible Financing For young person wishing to take over farming family farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer IV View Post
    If your issue with Lalans is the way he delivers his message, then you need to look in the mirror and wonder if your not a bit soft for this game. I think he's hit the nail on the head.
    He may well be right. But it's that kind of obnoxious, overbearing manner that makes people afraid to ask for advice when they really need it.

    That's when the problems really start.

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