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Thread: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

  1. #31
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by LALANS View Post
    Having read all the comments I think it's safe to say no one really knows fully the ins/outs and wherefores of planning.
    The best thing to do is speak to a reputable local planning consultant, someone with a proven track record. The initial meeting should be FOC and if you decide to go with him get a fixed fee or better still no planning no fee arrangement,
    Planning Officials within councils adopt a different attitude to such professionals (mainly because these guys no more on planning regs than they do) and tend to move things along a lot quicker. It also removes you from the front line and this can be no bad thing as sometimes we can become angry. A tirade directed at a planner can be 'the best speech you wish you had never made'
    Planning consultants are usually ex local authority planning officers and know all the tricks of the trade - good advice and it will be money well spent.

  2. #32
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by wed View Post
    Planning consultants are usually ex local authority planning officers and know all the tricks of the trade - good advice and it will be money well spent.
    With respect I am even going to refute this. Like all professionals there are good and bad. But when a firm of planning consultants helps with a PN appeal, then you draw in a firm of solicitors who specialise in planning law to assist, then a PINS Inspector comes to inspect the site, and after 6 months (and by this time I had engaged a QC) it is decided that a PN is not able to be appealed then you have to wonder who the Hell knows what about planning law. If PINS can't get it right then who can.

    Sure, PINS apologised alright, and I had the letter from the Treasury Solicitor, but that was small recompense for my troubles.

    If you have ag. PDR and you think you are going to get problems go for an LDC.

  3. #33
    Senior Member LALANS's Avatar
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    With respect I am even going to refute this. Like all professionals there are good and bad. But when a firm of planning consultants helps with a PN appeal, then you draw in a firm of solicitors who specialise in planning law to assist, then a PINS Inspector comes to inspect the site, and after 6 months (and by this time I had engaged a QC) it is decided that a PN is not able to be appealed then you have to wonder who the Hell knows what about planning law. If PINS can't get it right then who can.

    Sure, PINS apologised alright, and I had the letter from the Treasury Solicitor, but that was small recompense for my troubles.

    If you have ag. PDR and you think you are going to get problems go for an LDC.
    Zaza , wind it in a bit. This is a planning issue related to a shed not another runway at Heathrow ffs. The worst think anyone can do is make assumptions on a subject such as planning about which they know sfa.

  4. #34
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by LALANS View Post
    Zaza , wind it in a bit. This is a planning issue related to a shed not another runway at Heathrow ffs. The worst think anyone can do is make assumptions on a subject such as planning about which they know sfa.
    There are no assumptions in any of my posts. I have been there sunshine. They are the FACTS. Deal with it.

  5. #35
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Bootneck. Send me a PM with your email address. I will be able to help you. But you must give more details, size of shed, what it is to be used for, which planning authority, etc. etc. As long as you have more than 5 hectares you have Permitted Development Rights for a building of up to 465 sq. mts. as long as you satisfy certain other criteria but there are things you need to know and the correct way to go about things.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    I am sorry but there is a lot of misguided information being written on this topic. If you are likely to get lots of objections then a PN is NOT the way to go. You can not appeal a PN and I have a letter from PINS telling me that, even after the Inspector had been out and 6 months had elapsed. I have a letter from the Treasury Solicitor (it's a long story !) advising me to use the LDC route (Lawful Development Certificate). You can appeal that.

    I have advised the OP to PM me but nothing yet and it wouldn't be right to air all my experiences on here. The one caveat I will make is that I only have experience of England's planning laws.
    Zaza, if you put your cursor on Bootnecks username on the left of his posts and click it the drop down list lacks a link to PM him, this is because having recently joined his ability to PM is not enabled yet, it takes a bit of activity to reach the required level of posts to enable PM's. Apologies for this but its to limit the amount of spamming attacks.

    In the meantime if bootneck replies and indicates he'd like to be contacted then I can arrange to forward his email address on for you.


    ff

  6. #36
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Zaza, if you put your cursor on Bootnecks username on the left of his posts and click it the drop down list lacks a link to PM him, this is because having recently joined his ability to PM is not enabled yet, it takes a bit of activity to reach the required level of posts to enable PM's. Apologies for this but its to limit the amount of spamming attacks.

    In the meantime if bootneck replies and indicates he'd like to be contacted then I can arrange to forward his email address on for you.
    ff
    Thank you for your offer of help Peter. I did try to contact Bootneck privately in the prescribed manner but then realised that because he/she is a recent member that the facility wasn't yet available. I entered into this discussion because if BN anticipates a lot of objections after having gone down the Prior Notification route he will find that it is fraught with difficulties. And as you well know, Internet Forums can bring out the worst in people (a bit like planning actually ! ) but I am just trying to be helpful.

  7. #37
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Brown Envelope

  8. #38
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Hey zaza, I was just offering my input, as a parish councilor who has dealt with this time and time again. You seem to have been involved in an extreme case which is unfortunate for you and are now, in my view, telling the OP that the standard route for what he's trying to will be a disaster.

    I'll leave it at that. No more on this thread.

  9. #39
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Hey zaza, I was just offering my input, as a parish councilor who has dealt with this time and time again. You seem to have been involved in an extreme case which is unfortunate for you and are now, in my view, telling the OP that the standard route for what he's trying to will be a disaster.

    I'll leave it at that. No more on this thread.

    Hopefully I have never even intimated at "disaster"

    But the facts are these :

    1. The normal route when wanting to erect an agricultural building is the Prior Notification (PN) always assuming that the "applicant" fulfills all the requirements for that procedure. One advantage of a PN is the 28 day rule and I have been the fortunate recipient of the benefit that rule.

    2. If the "applicant" thinks that there will be lots of objections then the PN route is not the way to go because there is no right of appeal against a PN.

    3. The better route, if anticipating problems, is the Lawful Dveelopment Certificate (LDC) which can be appealed against if a refusal is given but the 28 day rule does not apply.

    A brief summary of the legislation can be found here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...evelopment.pdf

    There is a sting in the tail to a PN. Part of the wording of the relevant legislation says that any development ( for agricultural buildings) "must be reasonably neccessary for the purposes of agriculture" All kinds of people will find all kinds of reasons to prove that the proposal isn't "reasonably necessary" The whole point of the legislation was so that farmers (as an example) could react quickly to market forces, changing circumstances, and legislation from other areas, i.e. vermin proof grain stores etc. The clause that contains "reasonably necessary" was probably inserted with good intentions but of course the PN option has been abused by some and so it is this wooly stupid unquantifiable wording that objectors seize on.

  10. #40
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    my agent close to you , highly recommend him , knows the answer before the question is asked , and lot cheaper than wasting your time ?

    http://www.planningfareham.co.uk/

  11. #41
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    thanks for the replies, I have spoken to the planning officer and things are moving, hopefully in the right direction.

  12. #42
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootneck View Post
    thanks for the replies, I have spoken to the planning officer and things are moving, hopefully in the right direction.
    Good.

    My only advice on dealing with Planners is never, never act on a verbal reponse to your questions to them.... Get it in writing!!
    steveR formerly known as dexterbeef!

  13. #43
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveR View Post
    Good.

    My only advice on dealing with Planners is never, never act on a verbal reponse to your questions to them.... Get it in writing!!
    Or on tape.

  14. #44
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Prior notification no good for 35x15m shed as it's over 465m2, OP will have to go full planning or LDC. If there's lots of trees on site you could then do PN for a forestry building as there's no size limit on PN for forestry.

  15. #45
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGSP View Post
    Or on tape.
    Or confirm in writing YOUR recollections of questions and answers, who visited / answered and when. And send that by signed for / recorded letter to the department and person you spoke to. Thus inviting a challenge if you misunderstood

  16. #46

    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    Or confirm in writing YOUR recollections of questions and answers, who visited / answered and when. And send that by signed for / recorded letter to the department and person you spoke to. Thus inviting a challenge if you misunderstood
    Best get your word in first with solicitors too. They are the worst at writing to one confirming what was NOT said.

  17. #47
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveR View Post
    Good.

    My only advice on dealing with Planners is never, never act on a verbal reponse to your questions to them.... Get it in writing!!
    Delete "planners", insert "civil servants".

  18. #48
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    I appolagise for coming into this late in the discussion but I have been developing or rather establishing my farmyard from scratch on bare farm land North of Aylesbury.

    My first application was for an open fronted stock barn 120 x 40 ft in size with a 30 feet open pens in front. I made this application under permitted development and initially this was rejected as I was within 400 metres of existing houses - the planning officer met me on site and pointed to a location further down the field and said it would be ok there and I asked if it could be located the other side of the hedge in another of my fields. Permission was granted and the building was constructed.

    Two years later I asked for another barn under permitted development and this was agreed without fuss, although I did meet the planning officer who was pleased to learn what I was trying to acheive and realised all the nasty comments from neighbours including a farmer! were based on jealousy.

    I therefore do not understand why you are being blocked by the planners as it is your statutory rights to have a barn for your business and animals as long as it is further than 400metres from a habital home not connected to the business. One assumes that if animals are not being reared or housed the 400 metre rule is of no consequence.

    As regards engaging planning facilitators I have consulted four seperate ones over the years and they have been as much use as a chocolate tea pot.

    Thus I suggest that you appeal if you feel you are being disadvantaged by the planning authority and also do not put too much store by what neighbours say as they always wish to stab you in the back I found this time after time.

  19. #49
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Rot View Post
    Delete "planners", insert "civil servants".
    True enough, the "contemporaneous record" counts for a lot IME, jot notes as you speak to someone, date it and keep it separate and as also as suggested, send a slightly more crafted copy of your notes by email AND by post, to make sure the other party is in agreement with what you consider was discussed or said...
    steveR formerly known as dexterbeef!

  20. #50
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    I don't want to get into an argument about this but while the post quoted was a good post there are some things that, in my opinion, need emphasing. I assume that you have at least 5 ha of agricultural land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Springador View Post
    I appolagise for coming into this late in the discussion but I have been developing or rather establishing my farmyard from scratch on bare farm land North of Aylesbury.

    My first application was for an open fronted stock barn 120 x 40 ft in size with a 30 feet open pens in front. I made this application under permitted development and initially this was rejected as I was within 400 metres of existing houses - the planning officer met me on site and pointed to a location further down the field and said it would be ok there and I asked if it could be located the other side of the hedge in another of my fields. Permission was granted and the building was constructed. You applied under PDR but what process did you use ? Full planning (FP), Prior Notification (PN) , or Lawful Development Certificate (LDC) ?

    Two years later I asked for another barn under permitted development and this was agreed without fuss, although I did meet the planning officer who was pleased to learn what I was trying to acheive and realised all the nasty comments from neighbours including a farmer! were based on jealousy.

    I therefore do not understand why you are being blocked by the planners as it is your statutory rights to have a barn for your business and animals as long as it is further than 400metres from a habital home not connected to the business. Sorry but that is not quite true. It is supposed to be the case under agricultural PDR but it can be got round by the LPA (Local Planning Authority) One assumes that if animals are not being reared or housed the 400 metre rule is of no consequence.

    As regards engaging planning facilitators I have consulted four seperate ones over the years and they have been as much use as a chocolate tea pot. Yes, I totally agree with that.

    Thus I suggest that you appeal if you feel you are being disadvantaged by the planning authority and also do not put too much store by what neighbours say as they always wish to stab you in the back I found this time after time. At the risk of repeating myself there is NO right of appeal if you go down the PN route. PINS (Planning Inspectorate - they handle appeals) have told me that but it took them months to tell me, even after the Inspector had made his visit. And the Treasury Solicitor told me the same thing in a very apologetic letter and suggesting that I go down the LDC route.

    I have made numerous applications using the PN route but if trouble is expected then the LDC route is better.


  21. #51
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    Quote Originally Posted by wed View Post
    Stop them walking your land immediately. I am not sure after how long but they can try and claim it as a 'green open space/village green' for the use of the local community. This will prevent you doing what ever you want to with your land. They have to prove that it hasn't been farmed properly for x years and they have been using it for recreational purposes. Put signs up immediately saying no access and photograph them as evidence and lock any access points, providing there are no footpaths crossing it. I would seek further advice regarding stoping them using your land.
    Agree. Prevent access suggesting that the potential buyers do not like prying eyes and they also talk funny and are hard to understand when shouting from the white transit.

  22. #52
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    Re: neighbours objecting to agricultural building.

    On both occassions I made my applications via prior notification rules, on the second occassion the planning officer met me on site as he was worried that I was possibly going to use my building for commercial reasons and Yes it is true that the application should be made in the light of reasonable need.

    As regards newts etc., I have a pond about 50 feet away from my farmyard but last year I hardcored the whole area of my yard to be - an area of 200 x 170feet with hardcore and yes I had two contacts from the County and local Council asking if I was creating a waste transfer station! Both left satisfied that this was not the case and that the person or persons who tipped them off were just being malicous.

    If I remember rightly the in regard to the matter of newts it is important to mention that these are very unlikely to be injured by the proposed works as the pad foundations pits will be excavated and concreted simultanously on the same day and thus it is almost certainly the case that these operations will not cause or harm any such protected creatures in the vicinity.

    In fact there is a larger degree of injury from travelling on or over your land by tractor or from the operations of topping or grass cutting.

    As regards your Badger Survey, I would have thought that any costs so incurred by you due to the planners ignorance should be recoverable from the local authority.

    Finally I would very strongly suggest that you register with your local authority for a pig license as I have done as you never know when this may be your passport to success - won't go into this too much as quislins often visit BFF and quote directly extracts therefrom to planners as has happened with me!

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