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Thread: Scottish independence

  1. #31
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Coltheox View Post
    This is the best and most telling post on this thread.
    Ah but you can't put a price on true democracy- let the most insane be voted in to rule their own asylum I say.

    Enjoy the oil money fellers. I'd sooner England was dirt poor than be run by the Scots own version of Adolf Hitler.

    Actually, that is rather unfair on Adolf. He was at least good public speaking and with some charisma. The jock it would seem is sadly lacking in those categories.

  2. #32
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Giles1 View Post
    The whole business is a waste of money,time and effort.The SNP bitch about Westminster being out of touch constantly,the rest of Scotland bitches about Holyrood being out of touch with them.Councils can't even keep public toilets open in Perthshire,and Stirling.Holyrood don't care.Since that wretched building was put up we in rural areas have seen reduced Ambulance cover,reduced Police cover and reduced Fire cover.Roads are falling apart,villages losing shops,agriculture reducing,people and livestock leaving the hills,rural schools closing,reduced public services and the latest idea,dustbin collections once a month.And the SNP have the effrontery to publish a political manifesto masquerading as a government white paper using public money.God help us because the English,Welsh and N.Irish won't.
    Would you send this as a letter to all the National daily papers?

    The Scotsman would be good start so that Alex and Nicola can choke over their porridge.

    And the Herald, Dundee courier............

  3. #33
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    Re: Scottish independence

    I never quite understand the "Scotland can't go it alone because they depend on money from England" argument.

    Surely, if they were draining English resources then the English would be pleased to allow them to go their own way, and if they are not draining English resources then they will be able to manage independently.

    Personally I think Scotland will manage perfectly well when it's independent. It will resume EU membership and run just like it does now as a region of the EU, much like England. It will receive whatever support it needs direct from the EU. The influence of Westminister diminishes by the day in sub servience to our EU masters. Within a few years, thanks to ever more powers being taken by Brussels, Westminster will have no more power in England than Holyrood has in Scotland today.

    Westminster is a spent force already with a heightened sense of its own importance.

    Being a sassenach, I don't really care anyway. They all make a mess of it.

  4. #34
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Scottish independence will be good for everyone who lives in these islands.Scotland is a well resourced country and will manage just fine.Other countries of similar size,but with less resources manage.So why not Scotland? I think if Scotland wins independence the rest of the UK will be forced to examine its place in the world and its future role.If that results in a big shake up in the cesspit of sleaze that is Westminster,that can only be good for everyone.

  5. #35
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    Scottish independence will be good for everyone who lives in these islands.Scotland is a well resourced country and will manage just fine.Other countries of similar size,but with less resources manage.So why not Scotland? I think if Scotland wins independence the rest of the UK will be forced to examine its place in the world and its future role.If that results in a big shake up in the cesspit of sleaze that is Westminster,that can only be good for everyone.

    ...

    Like I said, let them go and try.

    The money in this country is made in London. Nowhere else. I might be English but I'm not blind.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWazzock View Post
    Surely, if they were draining English resources then the English would be pleased to allow them to go their own way,
    I hope the English don't start applying that theory to Northern Ireland or we're f**ked.

    Fact is, like it or not, England subs Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Wales less so, Scotland considerably (even taking the oil in to account), and Northern Ireland massively. Only saving grace we have is that it's considerably the smallest region so the gross sums of money aren't as big,

    oh,.........................and we have semtex!

  7. #37
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    ...

    Like I said, let them go and try.

    The money in this country is made in London. Nowhere else. I might be English but I'm not blind.
    Second richest city in the uk is aberdeen ;-)

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    Second richest city in the uk is aberdeen ;-)
    so why's their footie team so bad??

  9. #39
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    Second richest city in the uk is aberdeen ;-)
    How so?

    Just checked on google, apparently house prices even in places like Chichester are rather greater than in Aberdeen?

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    Second richest city in the uk is aberdeen ;-)
    And the third,fourth,fifth?

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by wrsni View Post
    I hope the English don't start applying that theory to Northern Ireland or we're f**ked.

    Fact is, like it or not, England subs Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Wales less so, Scotland considerably (even taking the oil in to account), and Northern Ireland massively. Only saving grace we have is that it's considerably the smallest region so the gross sums of money aren't as big,

    oh,.........................and we have semtex!
    Not exactly. We've been sending them most of our best talent fresh out of school for the last forty years, most of which never comes home.

  12. #42
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    How so?

    Just checked on google, apparently house prices even in places like Chichester are rather greater than in Aberdeen?
    all the money coming in from the oil rigs comes into aberdeen . if you fancy a new line of work mayo you can head for the rigs , £35000 a year for a cleaner and you only need to work for 6 months in a year .
    you try booking into a hotel up there from what i here its not cheap either .

    you say all the money made in this country is made in london , so where were all the losses made when everything went tits up

  13. #43
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    all the money coming in from the oil rigs comes into aberdeen . if you fancy a new line of work mayo you can head for the rigs , £35000 a year for a cleaner and you only need to work for 6 months in a year .
    you try booking into a hotel up there from what i here its not cheap either .

    you say all the money made in this country is made in london , so where were all the losses made when everything went tits up
    I'm not a good cleaner. Nor would I want to do it for 35K a year. I can think of few things I would rather not do. Being on a metal platform full of prima donna scots does not strike me as a good day out. I'm more than happy in my current line of work. Swimmingly well I would describe it thus.

    I think you will find all the money is made in London. You can google it quite freely and find out where the UKs trade activity is derived from. I doubt somehow domestic oil production is very high near the list considering the shit load of it we now import.

    And that no one worried about losses when the guys in suits were busy filling your pension plan or backing 110% mortgages. Losses are an inevitable part of the trade pattern of business and a great deal of money was probably made when the market was on its way down. That is what they do.


    The biggest problem with your oil money pony is that oil revenues unfortunately have not kept pace with public spending-a tap rather more easy to turn, of course.

    You also neglect the fact that it was London money which financed the exploration and extraction of the stuff in the first place.

    You can have your oil. What you will not have is the service sector- near enough 4/5ths of the UK economy by value. You also neglect to mention that the reason England is the UK economic powerhouse, is that most of our nigh on 30 million workforce live there.

  14. #44
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I'm not a good cleaner. Nor would I want to do it for 35K a year. I can think of few things I would rather not do. Being on a metal platform full of prima donna scots does not strike me as a good day out. I'm more than happy in my current line of work. Swimmingly well I would describe it thus.

    I think you will find all the money is made in London. You can google it quite freely and find out where the UKs trade activity is derived from. I doubt somehow domestic oil production is very high near the list considering the shit load of it we now import.

    And that no one worried about losses when the guys in suits were busy filling your pension plan or backing 110% mortgages. Losses are an inevitable part of the trade pattern of business and a great deal of money was probably made when the market was on its way down. That is what they do.


    The biggest problem with your oil money pony is that oil revenues unfortunately have not kept pace with public spending-a tap rather more easy to turn, of course.

    You also neglect the fact that it was London money which financed the exploration and extraction of the stuff in the first place.

    You can have your oil. What you will not have is the service sector- near enough 4/5ths of the UK economy by value. You also neglect to mention that the reason England is the UK economic powerhouse, is that most of our nigh on 30 million workforce live there.
    you dont half talk some crap mayo .

    what makes you think the platforms are full of scots??? any why would they be prema donna types ?

    everytime this debate comes up you have always pleanty to say about it but reality you know nothing about it and you usually end up making derogatory remarks about alex salmond .and as we all know in politics when you start loosing the argument you start just attacking the opposition .

    i suggest seen as you like looking stuff up on Wikipedia you check out the word "bigot"

  15. #45
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    Re: Scottish independence

    The major concern is that an independent Scotland wouldn't have the benefit of a Conservative Government riding to their rescue after five or more disastrous years of a labour/socialist government.

    The other concern is that a very high proportion of the population are economically inactive or are in jobs which consume wealth rather than create wealth.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    you dont half talk some crap mayo .

    what makes you think the platforms are full of scots??? any why would they be prema donna types ?

    everytime this debate comes up you have always pleanty to say about it but reality you know nothing about it and you usually end up making derogatory remarks about alex salmond .and as we all know in politics when you start loosing the argument you start just attacking the opposition .

    i suggest seen as you like looking stuff up on Wikipedia you check out the word "bigot"
    I don't need to be a bigot to see that Salmond is a cock.

    Are you going to even try to discuss my other points or avoid them as usual?
    It seems odd that I'm the one making the points yet I apparently know nothing and you know all about the subject and write nothing but more run of the mill slurs on me which of course bother me not the slightest.

    In fact I revel at the fact grown men can summon the effort to write me such prose. If you really want to impress me though, you'll have to come up with a convincing argument at least partly relevant to the thread at hand. If you ever think there is a danger of that happening, please do let me know.

    Thanks

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by wrsni View Post
    I hope the English don't start applying that theory to Northern Ireland or we're f**ked.

    Fact is, like it or not, England subs Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Wales less so, Scotland considerably (even taking the oil in to account), and Northern Ireland massively. Only saving grace we have is that it's considerably the smallest region so the gross sums of money aren't as big,

    oh,.........................and we have semtex!
    Actually that is not fact.Scotland has higher public spending than the UK but also raises much higher tax than the UK,on a per capita basis.As you would expect from an oil rich country.One of the main reasons for choosing independence is so we could use the next 50 to 80 years of oil wealth in building Scotland into the kind of country I want future generations to live and work in.I think my friends neighbours,colleagues and relations are capable of doing that,just as other folk in other countries have.I don't see anything in them that makes me believe they aren't capable of doing it.

  18. #48
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    Actually that is not fact.Scotland has higher public spending than the UK but also raises much higher tax than the UK,on a per capita basis.As you would expect from an oil rich country.One of the main reasons for choosing independence is so we could use the next 50 to 80 years of oil wealth in building Scotland into the kind of country I want future generations to live and work in.I think my friends neighbours,colleagues and relations are capable of doing that,just as other folk in other countries have.I don't see anything in them that makes me believe they aren't capable of doing it.
    If you think there's 50-80 years of oil revenues left in the North sea you'll be sadly mistaken I'm afraid. The long and the short of it is that as things stand neither party would be much better or worse off immediately after a divorce, as you rightly point out the higher public spending in Scotland is balanced by higher tax revenues per capita. However Scotland will have swapped a cast iron revenue source (its block of cash from the UK Treasury) with a highly volatile and declining revenue source (North sea oil and gas taxes). Thus all the things the SNP are promising will have to be paid for from somewhere and a decade down the line the oil money won't be there to pay for it. The White Paper was long on spending promises and very short on how they will all be paid for. If the Scots get taken in by such obvious bribes to vote yes I'm afraid they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Oh, and the Spanish PM has today confirmed what we all know - an independent Scotland would be outside the EU immediately upon independence and would have to reapply to join the EU. How that would fit with keeping sterling as a currency is anyone's guess, as all new entrants have to sign up to the euro. And Spain itself will not be well disposed to aid Scotland's reintegration into the EU - Spain has a region of its own (Catalonia) that wants to leave Spain, and they are desperate for there not to be a simple way for them to do so.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25132026

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    Actually that is not fact.
    Best take it up with the BBC then. According to the excellent (and now sadly departed to channel 4) Paul Mason, even counting North Sea Oil revenue as being there's and there's alone, Scotland is still a net beneficiary of the UK exchequer.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by goweresque View Post
    If you think there's 50-80 years of oil revenues left in the North sea you'll be sadly mistaken I'm afraid. The long and the short of it is that as things stand neither party would be much better or worse off immediately after a divorce, as you rightly point out the higher public spending in Scotland is balanced by higher tax revenues per capita. However Scotland will have swapped a cast iron revenue source (its block of cash from the UK Treasury) with a highly volatile and declining revenue source (North sea oil and gas taxes). Thus all the things the SNP are promising will have to be paid for from somewhere and a decade down the line the oil money won't be there to pay for it. The White Paper was long on spending promises and very short on how they will all be paid for. If the Scots get taken in by such obvious bribes to vote yes I'm afraid they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Oh, and the Spanish PM has today confirmed what we all know - an independent Scotland would be outside the EU immediately upon independence and would have to reapply to join the EU. How that would fit with keeping sterling as a currency is anyone's guess, as all new entrants have to sign up to the euro. And Spain itself will not be well disposed to aid Scotland's reintegration into the EU - Spain has a region of its own (Catalonia) that wants to leave Spain, and they are desperate for there not to be a simple way for them to do so.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25132026
    Every oil company in Aberdeen knows there is atleast 50 years of known oil reserves to come,and that there are more discoveries to be made.Thats why they are investing so heavily for the future.I've been hearing from London all my life that the oil will run out in 10 years.You say the oil money wont be there in a decade.I drive round Aberdeen regularly and seeing is believing.Scottish people have been citizens of the EU for decades.There is no mechanism for throwing us out.There will be 18 months between a YES vote and independence.During that time our continueing membership will be secured.We already meet all the criteria.We have all the rules and regulations in force.A far bigger threat is that we vote NO and then a majority of people in England vote to drag Scotland out of the EU.

  21. #51
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    Every oil company in Aberdeen knows there is atleast 50 years of known oil reserves to come,and that there are more discoveries to be made.Thats why they are investing so heavily for the future.I've been hearing from London all my life that the oil will run out in 10 years.You say the oil money wont be there in a decade.I drive round Aberdeen regularly and seeing is believing.Scottish people have been citizens of the EU for decades.There is no mechanism for throwing us out.There will be 18 months between a YES vote and independence.During that time our continueing membership will be secured.We already meet all the criteria.We have all the rules and regulations in force.A far bigger threat is that we vote NO and then a majority of people in England vote to drag Scotland out of the EU.
    50 years worth is enough to keep the oil companies going for the forseable future , theres not much point spending millions looking for the stuff if your not going to get round to drilling for it for another 50 years

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    Re: Scottish independence

    50 years is not a long time in the lifetime of a country though is it? The oil debate is marginal. If Scots really want independence they need to look to a time, 50, 100, 200 years down the line when oil has gone and think on that. I think it distorts the issue. Same as with UK membership of the EU, we must be careful to measure our patriotism and reactionary feelings with some thought for our children, grand-children and so on.

    What will Aberdeen be when oil has gone? Stuck up there on the edge? Will it continue to be the second richest city, if that is the case?

  23. #53
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    Re: Scottish independence

    I think that this debate is a waste of time; I cant believe that the Scots are stupid enough to vote for independence. The SNP might have done better if the vote had been taken during the Euro boom years as they could have pointed to the Republic of Ireland , telling all and sundry that small countries could and would prosper. After the bust , that argument doesn't look so good.....

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    you dont half talk some crap mayo .

    what makes you think the platforms are full of scots??? any why would they be prema donna types ?

    everytime this debate comes up you have always pleanty to say about it but reality you know nothing about it and you usually end up making derogatory remarks about alex salmond .and as we all know in politics when you start loosing the argument you start just attacking the opposition .

    i suggest seen as you like looking stuff up on Wikipedia you check out the word "bigot"
    I did check out "Bigot".Fits Mr Salmond to a tee.In one of his recent conference speeches he made reference to Westminster being full of "Public School Toffs".How statesmanlike.One it isn't.Two,what is wrong with going to Public school anyway?(Aside from the fact it's not usually your choice but your parents).Three,one of the perceived "poshest" Universities in the UK is St Andrews,where he studied.Four,I happen to know some of his supporters,and one or two of them went to places like Fettes College.Presumably their heads will be cut off should independence become a reality.

  25. #55
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    Re: Scottish independence

    when ireland became independant,a free state back in the 20s, westminster lost a large block of liberal votes letting the whigs have an artifical majority for many years. if scotland become indepentant a similar set of circimstances may appear with a large block of labour mp simply disappear leaving the balance of power pointing heavily into tory hand, torys in power for years,labour currently has 41 labour mps,just a thought.

  26. #56
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    Re: Scottish independence

    Can contributors to the thread please discuss the topic and refrain from making personal comments aimed at other members.


    footsfitter.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    50 years is not a long time in the lifetime of a country though is it? The oil debate is marginal. If Scots really want independence they need to look to a time, 50, 100, 200 years down the line when oil has gone and think on that. I think it distorts the issue. Same as with UK membership of the EU, we must be careful to measure our patriotism and reactionary feelings with some thought for our children, grand-children and so on.

    What will Aberdeen be when oil has gone? Stuck up there on the edge? Will it continue to be the second richest city, if that is the case?
    50 years isn't long.Thats why its important to crack on now using oil revenues to best advantage.If we don't,that fortune will be squandered by Westminster trying to keep up the façade of being a world power.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    Every oil company in Aberdeen knows there is atleast 50 years of known oil reserves to come,and that there are more discoveries to be made.Thats why they are investing so heavily for the future.I've been hearing from London all my life that the oil will run out in 10 years.You say the oil money wont be there in a decade.I drive round Aberdeen regularly and seeing is believing.Scottish people have been citizens of the EU for decades.There is no mechanism for throwing us out.There will be 18 months between a YES vote and independence.During that time our continueing membership will be secured.We already meet all the criteria.We have all the rules and regulations in force.A far bigger threat is that we vote NO and then a majority of people in England vote to drag Scotland out of the EU.
    Firstly the oil money. Oil production in the North Sea peaked in 1999 (here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/prt/og-stats.pdf page 7) and revenues have fluctuated over the years (page 6 of same document), but that the best years were in the 80s. Recent rises in the oil price have boosted revenues again recently, but they fluctuate wildly - 2011/12 was £11bn but 2012/13 was only £6.5bn for example. It is very hard to run a small country's budget when such a large proportion of your revenue comes from such a volatile, and in long term decline source.

    Secondly the EU issue: there doesn't have to be a mechanism for throwing Scotland out - by voting to become an independent country you move yourself out automatically. The UK is in, leave the UK, not in. Simple. This has been confirmed by the European Commission, and just the other day the Spanish PM in the BBC link. Everyone apart from Alex Salmond is saying Scotland will have to reapply to join the EU - are they all wrong?

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    50 years isn't long.Thats why its important to crack on now using oil revenues to best advantage.If we don't,that fortune will be squandered by Westminster trying to keep up the façade of being a world power.

    It will be squandered whoever gets it. Scotland already spends more than its revenues including oil. And given the whole thrust of Scottish politics is Left leaning there is no way the oil money won't get spent on increased day to day public spending. The White Paper is a wish list of spending promises - not much room there for building up a Wealth Fund.

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    Re: Scottish independence

    Quote Originally Posted by saltoun View Post
    There will be 18 months between a YES vote and independence.During that time our continueing membership will be secured.We already meet all the criteria.We have all the rules and regulations in force.A far bigger threat is that we vote NO and then a majority of people in England vote to drag Scotland out of the EU.
    Says Who? Alex Salmond?

    To secure membership concessions will have to be given, and number 1 will be: Adopt the Euro. Ok, that might not be the end of the world, but Salmonds pledge to keep the pound is bullsh!t. The choice won't be his to make.

    Also, an independent Scotland will be a 'start-up company' with no financial track record. The EU, terrified of another 'Greece' happening down the line will have their finger in everything. The government of an independent Scotland will have less control over it's own fiscal policies than it does now, as part of the UK.

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