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Thread: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

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    .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Thinking of buying a first gun for the kids (9 and 11). Pair of them had a days tuition last summer on a .410 and loved it, thought it would be nice to involve them a bit more when myself and a few friends shoot a few clays on a Sunday afternoon, eldest being very keen for promotion from working the traps.

    The question at the back of my mind is .410 or 28 bore. Plenty of .410s about, but pricey cartridges. 28 bore probably not much cheaper to run, but my impression is that it would probably be a better gun to shoot clays for a 'youth'.
    What sort of barrel lengths should I be looking at for a decent fore end weight - can say 26" .410s be too light?

    Your opinions and experiences would be much appreciated.

    NB - I'm looking at the used market or cheaper new Turkish guns etc, preferably O/U, no bolt actions or semi A's etc to teach them the discipline of carrying a broken gun for obvious safety reasons. If anyone knows of a gun looking for a new owner please PM (quickly!).

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzer IV View Post
    Thinking of buying a first gun for the kids (9 and 11). Pair of them had a days tuition last summer on a .410 and loved it, thought it would be nice to involve them a bit more when myself and a few friends shoot a few clays on a Sunday afternoon, eldest being very keen for promotion from working the traps.

    The question at the back of my mind is .410 or 28 bore. Plenty of .410s about, but pricey cartridges. 28 bore probably not much cheaper to run, but my impression is that it would probably be a better gun to shoot clays for a 'youth'.
    What sort of barrel lengths should I be looking at for a decent fore end weight - can say 26" .410s be too light?

    Your opinions and experiences would be much appreciated.

    NB - I'm looking at the used market or cheaper new Turkish guns etc, preferably O/U, no bolt actions or semi A's etc to teach them the discipline of carrying a broken gun for obvious safety reasons. If anyone knows of a gun looking for a new owner please PM (quickly!).
    My three sons had a 20 bore, 28 bore and a 410. What a bloody waste of time. In less than a year they were all using 12 bore, mind you they were older than your boys, probably about 15,13 and 11 at the time. I wouldn't bother with anything smaller than 20 bore. If it's too heavy then they're too young.
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Better with a slightly too long small-actioned 20b, like a Beretta and some light loads perhaps, would then have something worth growing into.`

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    20 is a good gun. Many people stick with them. I loved mine and never really felt I needed a 12 but then maybe I was just a good shot

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Much rather have a 410 then a 12 bore as in my book is all down to accuracy of the shot. Clays get boring with a 12 bore.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Unless the 9 yr old is really large for his/her age then I'd say a 20 b is too much gun for them. 20b cartridges often have quite nasty recoil characteristics. Also , sure as eggs is eggs, they'll get the cartridges mixed up with 12's too

    410 guns & cartridges are much more available than 28's also the second hand market will be much cheaper. 410 is a great gun to start off with as long as you & they recognise its limitations.

    There are some golden rules for 410's which perplexingly both gun & cartridge manufacturers seem to ignore:

    1. Gun must fit, so that will mean cutting at least 2" from the stock & starting with a 26" max barrel length. Keep the piece you remove so it can be refitted when they've grown.
    2. Choke must go - maximum of improved cylinder for a kid. Full choke is fine for George Digweed, but not for most of us, & will be a heart breaker for a kid.
    3. Shot size maximum of 7's. 8's will be fine for most 410 quarry, perhaps use 7's for rabbits. Gun is a 25 yard max range , so even 8's have plenty of retained energy at that distance. You need small shot to fill the pattern.
    4. Don't use the magnums (11/16 oz or 3/4oz) until they are well used to recoil & bangs.


    I started my son off at 8 with a 410, (daughter wasn't interested, though did have a shot or two at clays). I cut 3" from the stock of a BSA folding single barrel so it fitted well. Patterned the gun at 20 yds, then cut off 4" of the barrel to leave 24 1/2" & refitted the bead(tricky). I knew I could get back a bit of choke with recess honing, but we patterned the modified gun again just with a cylinder bore. What a difference! a nice even killing size pattern pattern. I loaded a couple of set loads for him: 1/2oz of 8's for crows, pigeons & general shooting & 5/8 oz of 7's for rabbits. Over the next 3 or 4 years he shot piles of game with that gun, even two foxes (with home loaded 5/8 oz of 1 shot).
    He's 25 now , but still shoots quite a bit with a 410 Yildiz side by side I bought him when he was 16, long after he'd started with a 12 bore. It's 1/4/ & 1/2 choke & I saw him shoot 58 pigeons one afternoon with that which is quite a good bag for this area ( SW Wales)

    There's lots of stuff on 410's on the web from USA where it's one of the guages used for skeet & they also sell "youth's guns" appropriately sized too (though mostly pumps & autos).

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    At about 10 or 11 I was given a long barreled 410, best gun I ever owned.
    soon learnt that you had to hit the target.
    spraying shot everywhere is going to leave too many birds or rabbits injured.
    it was chambered for the 3 inch cartridge and surprised many people at its range.
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    At about 10 or 11 I was given a long barreled 410, best gun I ever owned.
    soon learnt that you had to hit the target.
    spraying shot everywhere is going to leave too many birds or rabbits injured.
    it was chambered for the 3 inch cartridge and surprised many people at its range.
    Exactly what I started with, great little gun and still have some good fun with it now! Surprising how far it will chuck a load especially from a 3" magnum cartridge! Moved to a 12bore after a year or two and soon learnt that its not the size of your tool its what you can do with it that counts!

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Ideally you need the heaviest gun they can manage comfortably and then choose your cartridge load accordingly. My son started at 6 with a Webley junior O/U .410. Nice little gun but the trigger pulls were horrendously heavy. At about 8 I bought him a 20 bore Benelli recoil operated 3 shot auto. It had been cut down for a young lady, it was light, short, low recoiling and was perfect for him, the only downside being it wouldn't cycle 21grm cartridges and 24s were a bit punchy. At 10 now he shoots the Benelli with 24 grm cartridges but his technique is very good. He also shoots my Miroku 12 bore skeet gun well with 21 grm cartridges and even my 32" Beretta DT10 trap gun with 28 grm cartridges.
    The moral of this story is be prepared to experiment and throw some dosh at the job!

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    20 gauge single barrel good gun for them .

    Best not to have too many different gauges as likely hood of mixing cartridges high then???

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    I was about your sons age when my dad bought me my first gun, a 20 bore, 28 inch barrel i think it is?. it was a side by side kestrel, i guess around the £200 mark, had an air gun before and now and again had his 410 to shoot some rabbits when we went out lamping, But like some has mentioned the 20 bore might be a better gun for them, if not could they trial one to see if they get on with one? if not it is easy enough to sell, and guns rarely devalue to much.

    Though i am female i never found mine to kick me to much, i to start with used low load cartridges, 24 grams, but i did when it was fitted have a Kickease put on the stock which takes some of the recoil out of the kick, might be something to consider? if you decide a 20 bore to be another option,

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    20g Beretta here for my 13 year old.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    buy a 12 gauge, and buy some gauge reducers,

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Be careful, as a 20 bore can kick more than a 12. It's all in how much it weighs, hence why a side by side lightweight 12 bore turns you into mincemeat, but the Riini i can barely lift doesn't seem to recoil. I would personally start with a 28 if costs didn't matter, as they will probably pattern a little better than a .410, however they are expensive to buy and also to shoot.

    Also, make sure that the gun fits, as that can really put someone off shooting quickly, if they are getting a sore shoulder and not being able to hit the proverbial barn door, It nearly put me off shooting until i found a decent fitting one by chance.

    Sounds like great fun though, I'm sure they will thoroughly enjoy it!

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrispeed View Post
    Be careful, as a 20 bore can kick more than a 12. It's all in how much it weighs, hence why a side by side lightweight 12 bore turns you into mincemeat, but the Riini i can barely lift doesn't seem to recoil. I would personally start with a 28 if costs didn't matter, as they will probably pattern a little better than a .410, however they are expensive to buy and also to shoot.

    Also, make sure that the gun fits, as that can really put someone off shooting quickly, if they are getting a sore shoulder and not being able to hit the proverbial barn door, It nearly put me off shooting until i found a decent fitting one by chance.

    Sounds like great fun though, I'm sure they will thoroughly enjoy it!
    + 1 started my two lads with 28 they got fed up with my old 410 , could'nt hit moving targets regular with it. as said make sure it fits, you can adjust them easy with recoil pads etc, you can also get different loads as they get used to it, ours is a kestrel s/s , my lads liked it, no to heavy,learned to swing properly and where they were putting the shot, range on it every bit as good as a 12, no probs dropping ducks and pheasant, lads are now over 20 and have progressed to 12 g and you don't want to stand nxt to them on a game day !

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    I was started on a 9mm garden gun, aged 6, bolt action. Then progressed to a 410 aged 8, again bolt action but with a 2 shot magazine, this I used until 11 and then father bought me a lovely Winchester 20 o/u which I still use to this day. I love it and would only change it for a Beretta SO 20 bore if they do them. The only limitation I found with it is Goose shooting but otherwise much prefer a 20 to a 12, lighter to lug around, easy to swing. They seem quite fashionable at the moment as most of the syndicate have started using them.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldmarshall View Post
    buy a 12 gauge, and buy some gauge reducers,

    I like that idea. Thank you.

    It would be interesting to know how this arrangement would effect the pattern.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deereone View Post
    I like that idea. Thank you.

    It would be interesting to know how this arrangement would effect the pattern.

    It's fine for making bangs for training the dog, but useless to expect to hit anything. The .410 or 28bore wad has no chance at all of obturating (sealing the powder gases against the shot) a 12bore .729inch diameter barrel. Unless you went for full length inserts from Nigel Teague or similar it's a complete waste of time. Plus some poor little 9 year old is lugging about 7 1/2 lbs of gun

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by pycoed View Post
    It's fine for making bangs for training the dog, but useless to expect to hit anything. The .410 or 28bore wad has no chance at all of obturating (sealing the powder gases against the shot) a 12bore .729inch diameter barrel. Unless you went for full length inserts from Nigel Teague or similar it's a complete waste of time. Plus some poor little 9 year old is lugging about 7 1/2 lbs of gun

    I got my first shotgun bought for me when i was 10 being very small and short for my age aswell, my Father bought me a lincon 28g we didn't shorten the stock, it was too big for me really but i learnt to shoot with it pretty well. It was so light for just walking round the farm with it was brilliant. And if your kids can learn to shoot well with a 28g find them some heavier cartridges to bring down faster game when they get better and they wont want to move up to 12g. I still shoot with my old 28 but also have another pair of them. They really are fantastic little guns.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by pycoed View Post
    It's fine for making bangs for training the dog, but useless to expect to hit anything. The .410 or 28bore wad has no chance at all of obturating (sealing the powder gases against the shot) a 12bore .729inch diameter barrel. Unless you went for full length inserts from Nigel Teague or similar it's a complete waste of time. Plus some poor little 9 year old is lugging about 7 1/2 lbs of gun
    +1
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by pycoed View Post
    It's fine for making bangs for training the dog, but useless to expect to hit anything. The .410 or 28bore wad has no chance at all of obturating (sealing the powder gases against the shot) a 12bore .729inch diameter barrel. Unless you went for full length inserts from Nigel Teague or similar it's a complete waste of time. Plus some poor little 9 year old is lugging about 7 1/2 lbs of gun
    Completely agree.

    Father bought a pair of .410 inserts to go in grandfathers old side by side 12 bore. At 20 yards, with a 2.5 inch Eley four long 6 shot cartridge, you had a spread that covered damn near 3 feet with gaps between the pellets that a rabbit would easily get through. Complete waste of time & money...the only thing it will kill is the lads confidence when he continues to miss everything he shoots at.

    All 4 of our youngsters have been "brought up" on a .410 started off with a single barrell...but bought a Yildiz o/u double 2/3 years ago.
    Our eldest Son, now 12, moved on to a 28 bore (Browning Cynergy o/u) when he was 10. but soon after that he was ready for a 20 bore. Would not recommend going to the expense of a 28 bore to be honest...better for them to start with a decent .410 & then up to a 20 bore. Eldest Son now handles my "Cannon" fairly well, Sabbati 32 inch o/u that weighs over 8 lbs.
    One of our younger boys ( 9), and also our 14 year old Daughter, are very happy & confident with the .410 o/u. Our youngest lad (6) has just now started to shoot the .410 with Dad helping to hold it.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooting Mad View Post
    Ideally you need the heaviest gun they can manage comfortably and then choose your cartridge load accordingly. My son started at 6 with a Webley junior O/U .410. Nice little gun but the trigger pulls were horrendously heavy. At about 8 I bought him a 20 bore Benelli recoil operated 3 shot auto. It had been cut down for a young lady, it was light, short, low recoiling and was perfect for him, the only downside being it wouldn't cycle 21grm cartridges and 24s were a bit punchy. At 10 now he shoots the Benelli with 24 grm cartridges but his technique is very good. He also shoots my Miroku 12 bore skeet gun well with 21 grm cartridges and even my 32" Beretta DT10 trap gun with 28 grm cartridges.
    The moral of this story is be prepared to experiment and throw some dosh at the job!
    And you had no concerns with doing this ?

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    I ended up looking at a few guns and after discounting bolt action 'garden guns' (no visual indication of 'safety') and SBS doubles (mostly ancient) I tried a 'new' Webley o/u, so the kids could learn to carry a 'broken gun'.
    It wasn't as new as the vendor made out. If the knocks on the woodwork, the wear, and rust didn't give it away, then the look on the dealers face when I pointed out the 07 proof house stamp on the barrel made it clear this one was a pup...

    I ended up buying a Winchester 9410. Being an under lever it broke every criteria I had set. Sold as used, it had clearly never been out of its box, and it was as cheap as chips. It only cycles 2 1/2" cartridges and it isn't going to be welcome on a formal day, but it's great fun to shoot, and the 11 year old has taken to it like a duck to water.
    The stock is a touch long at 13 1/2" pull, but a new one from Winchester to cut down is only $80. Barrel is 24" for SGC/ section 2, and the 9+1 magazine has been crimped likewise to 2+1. It's 6 1/2 lbs, but with negligible recoil, and he carries it well (lever down).
    It also has a fibre optic fore end and a shallow v rear iron sight - very confidence giving and so far deadly against tin cans...

    He's a very happy (and lucky) young lad.

    Thanks all for your help.
    Last edited by Panzer IV; 01-01-14 at 05:39 PM.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    And you had no concerns with doing this ?
    Absolutely not, we only shoot clays and I am never more than 3ft from his side. This is the age to learn. The Benelli is very manageable having a light weight aluminium receiver and only one barrel. When teaching youngsters to shoot many people consider the recoil of the gun to be the limiting factor. In fact this should only be a secondary consideration, the ability to mount and handle the gun should be the primary consideration.
    I should add he has held a shotgun certificate since he was 9. Of course this is another consideration to be taken into account when teaching youngsters to shoot, if you do not own the land where they are shooting, without a certificate strictly speaking you are breaking the law, even though they are under your supervision and you own the guns! Some, but not necessarily all clay grounds have a HO dispensation allowing tuition for non certificate holders but it is prudent to check just in case of an accident.

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    Senior Member Phil's Avatar
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooting Mad View Post
    Absolutely not, we only shoot clays and I am never more than 3ft from his side. This is the age to learn. The Benelli is very manageable having a light weight aluminium receiver and only one barrel. When teaching youngsters to shoot many people consider the recoil of the gun to be the limiting factor. In fact this should only be a secondary consideration, the ability to mount and handle the gun should be the primary consideration.
    I should add he has held a shotgun certificate since he was 9. Of course this is another consideration to be taken into account when teaching youngsters to shoot, if you do not own the land where they are shooting, without a certificate strictly speaking you are breaking the law, even though they are under your supervision and you own the guns! Some, but not necessarily all clay grounds have a HO dispensation allowing tuition for non certificate holders but it is prudent to check just in case of an accident.
    I certainly agree about "teaching them Young"...but I personally think 8 years old is far to young to be using a self-loading shotgun !

    And I personally don't like to see any self loading shotguns, or guns that can not be "Broken", on clay shoots due to the obvious safety issues.
    Don't get me wrong, I used a 6 shot semi-Auto (fac) myself, Remington 1100 left-hand eject, for years...but this gun was only used when I was out on my own doing vermin control or sometimes when I was sat in a hide with one other person decoying pigeons or black stuff!
    I just don't think it is "safe" using a self-loading shotgun when there are lots of other people around.

    And you are absolutely right with the bit on the Law & Shotguns etc.
    The Law states that if you do not hold a shotgun certificate then you may only use a shotgun if you use a gun that belongs to the occupier of the land and use it on that land in his/her presence.
    And someone without a shotgun certificate can only use a shotgun on a clay ground or shooting school if that ground, club or school has the full approval of the Licensing Police force.

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I certainly agree about "teaching them Young"...but I personally think 8 years old is far to young to be using a self-loading shotgun !

    And I personally don't like to see any self loading shotguns, or guns that can not be "Broken", on clay shoots due to the obvious safety issues.
    Don't get me wrong, I used a 6 shot semi-Auto (fac) myself, Remington 1100 left-hand eject, for years...but this gun was only used when I was out on my own doing vermin control or sometimes when I was sat in a hide with one other person decoying pigeons or black stuff!
    I just don't think it is "safe" using a self-loading shotgun when there are lots of other people around.

    And you are absolutely right with the bit on the Law & Shotguns etc.
    The Law states that if you do not hold a shotgun certificate then you may only use a shotgun if you use a gun that belongs to the occupier of the land and use it on that land in his/her presence.
    And someone without a shotgun certificate can only use a shotgun on a clay ground or shooting school if that ground, club or school has the full approval of the Licensing Police force.
    I won't allow auto's on my site, both for the safety reason's you mention and I think its rude to eject cartridges at the next man on dtl/ball trap.
    I would start with a 410 until they are competent then a shorten 12bore with 21gram cartridges once used to that they will be good enough to make up their own mind.
    Section 11 is the ticket needed for a clay shoot,worth having even for a single event.

  27. #27
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    We seem to have a ridiculous number of guns in this house. Shotguns at .410, 28g, 20g, 16g and 12g; single barrels, over and unders, side by sides, pump actions, semi-autos even a cross-stock; from nice English guns to cheap old things without a makers name.

    The one gun all my children, and many of their friends, enjoyed learning with was a relatively cheap Ruger 28 bore over and under.

    Unlike some better known makes (including some Berettas,) this is a true 28 bore and not a 20 bore with under bored barrels, which can make the gun too heavy and unbalanced.

    The advantage over a .410 is that it handles like a “proper” gun and has sufficient killing power to give confidence.

    You can easily get cartridges from 14 to 28 grams and from 5 to 9 shot and one can happily shoot a driven day with it.

    We had 2“ cut from the stock by a local gun smith and this piece was dressed so that it can easily be refitted if the gun is being used by an adult.

    I don’t for one minute suggest that you get every gauge in every style but if you are looking to get a small bore gun then I personally would recommend a 28 bore.

    The other nice thing is that the gun and a box of cartridges are so light if you are going to walk up a hedge to get a rat or rabbit.

  28. #28
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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    Interesting reading
    I started both my boys off with a 9mm garden gun
    Then when older 10 ish a 28 bore fitted for the older lad who got on very well
    But was a disaster for the younger one another gun fitted to him solved all the problems Fitting is top of the requirements whatever gauge

    Latter I bought them a 12 Bore each when they went to University I bought them back to enable funds
    When they finished Uni & left home they took there respective guns with them!!

    I would recommend a fitted 28 to start
    Xlandman

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    Re: .410 or 28 bore for first gun?

    How about a nice italian 20 with a light load? That's what I had as a kid and loved it to be honest. I can't recall the make now, not a well known one but it was a lovely little gun. As I got bigger I moved to pokier cartridges and in my view it was the match of a 12. Loads of people borrowed it from me and loved it too, especially if they had a bad leg or back or whatever. They were all amazed what it could do.

    A 20 is a gun you can grow into.

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