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Thread: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

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    Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Hi,

    We've done a muck for straw deal with a local farmer, we're wanting to be able to put a value on the muck produced so we all know it's a fair deal all round. He initially bargained 5t muck to 1t straw, with us baling and carting straw and then carting muck back in time for this coming harvest which he will then spread at his cost. Very much in his favour id say, but the fact is he'll only be able to get back what muck the straw produces as that's all we'll have, so we just want to be able to show that he's getting a worthwhile trade in the case he complains about it. And if it's vastly in his favour maybe organise it so he helps transport muck too.

    We had the muck analysed at a lab but they wouldn't put a monetary value on it. Can post results later today if it'll help anyone.
    Cheers!

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Is yours the oonly straw he gets,? Is it all FYM you get back or pig slurry as well or what??
    Id say he's got a bloody good deal,
    you bale n haul straw, then cart the Shyte back,,, all he has to do is put his animals onto it,,,, has he got you emptying the sheds as well??
    Big Vern..... Stay low Move faster

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    Senior Member Hazza97's Avatar
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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    I agree sounds like you have all the hardwork! Maybe to balance out the load you could just stack the straw at the edge of the field and he can cart it as he'll no where he wants it and when and he could muck the pigs out and you could cart? They do say pig muck is one of the best mucks with poultry though.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Vern View Post
    Is yours the oonly straw he gets,? Is it all FYM you get back or pig slurry as well or what??
    Id say he's got a bloody good deal,
    you bale n haul straw, then cart the Shyte back,,, all he has to do is put his animals onto it,,,, has he got you emptying the sheds as well??
    I read it the other way round, i.e. the other guy is the one producing the straw (because he's spreading the muck). Agree that he's getting the better deal. If it can be agreed, the general way is for the livestock man to bale/haul the straw and the arable man to haul/spread the muck. If there's no other straw involved, the arable man gets his straw nutrients back. The extra 'slurry' included offsets his hauling/spreading cost and hopefully convinces him that extra land travelling is worth it. I have heard of the livestock man hauling the mid-winter muck in order to have control of timing of the mucking out, but would expect a hand hauling the straw in return.

    In terms of the original question, if you have a NPK analysis then should be able to value that using current prices. The argument is always over the value of the organic matter. Just say it's the same as the original straw. For cattle muck, heard 5-6t in the yard as the 'value', pig muck might be a bit spicier, and more valuable, especially if the P is scarce.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Are you the pig farmer or the arable man?

    Work out the cost of the nutrients at current NPK prices - using the analysis of the muck.
    The work out the cost of the straw at current rates.

    Calculate the cost of haulage, baling and spreading, then you can easily compare. If you're struggling the ABC book has some guides as to cost of baling, carting, spreading etc.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    We're the pigs farmers. Its a 15 mile round trip so he doesnt get slurry as the contractor wont cart it that far i dont think. Plus our neighbours pay for it spread on their grassland and some winter crops with a terra gator.

    Where can i get current market values of NPK?

    Im certain hes just being tight, makes out like hes doing us a favour not charging us 55/t baled or some nonsense he quoted if we just bought it.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrown88 View Post
    We're the pigs farmers. Its a 15 mile round trip so he doesnt get slurry as the contractor wont cart it that far i dont think. Plus our neighbours pay for it spread on their grassland and some winter crops with a terra gator.

    Where can i get current market values of NPK?

    Im certain hes just being tight, makes out like hes doing us a favour not charging us 55/t baled or some nonsense he quoted if we just bought it.
    Do you have the analysis you mentioned?

    i forget the n exactly, but there's 7.kg K / t and 3.6P, sniff of mg and S. in these parts common is for stockman to bale and cart straw, arable man to cart and spread muck, at about 5:1.
    For ours, I count the nutrients value at what they'd cost me to buy as fert, and cancel the soil conditioning effect out with the cost of spreading. Asssuming he muck covers the PK requirements for the nxt crop, there's also a saving in fert spreading cost in your favour.

    spud

    edit - usually we find where straw is chopped the following crop needs a bit more N in order to break down the straw, the combine also costs more in fuel, time and blades when it's chopping.

    for fert prices look n fert price tracker thread on here

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Here's the results:

    Potash k2O 6.63
    Phosphate p2O5 4.88
    Magnesium MgO 2.82
    Total N 5.81
    Dry Matrer 215.10

    All k/tonne

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrown88 View Post
    Here's the results:

    Potash k2O 6.63
    Phosphate p2O5 4.88
    Magnesium MgO 2.82
    Total N 5.81
    Dry Matrer 215.10

    All k/tonne
    If you want to cart slurry get a haulage contractor with an artic tanker, and use a nurse tank. Cheaper and a hell of a lot faster than using tractors.

    In our parts straw is often said to be worth 100/acre to people. I would think it is fair for the livestock man to cart the straw away, and the arable man to cart the muck in and tip it although some arable farms insist the livestock man does both. It is best to let the arable man sort the spreading, too.

    Pig solids will be very useful and valuable to an otherwise stockless arable farm. But then straw is worth a lot to you also.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrown88 View Post
    Here's the results:

    Potash k2O 6.63
    Phosphate p2O5 4.88
    Magnesium MgO 2.82
    Total N 5.81
    Dry Matrer 215.10

    All k/tonne
    I'll have a try, not sure if my prices are spot on but they seem to be going up every other week.
    34% N @ 300/t = 8.82/unit * 5.81 units = 51.24
    46% TSP @310/t = 6.74/unit * 4.88 units = 32.89
    60% MOP @ 290/t = 4.83/unit * 6.63 units = 32.02
    so 116.15/t of dry matter or 24.98/t fresh weight
    We are also currently selling straw at 70/t

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Im no use at working in units etc but is there not 20 hundred weights to a ton so 680 units in a ton of 34% N ?

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Dram View Post
    I'll have a try, not sure if my prices are spot on but they seem to be going up every other week.
    34% N @ 300/t = 8.82/unit * 5.81 units = 51.24
    46% TSP @310/t = 6.74/unit * 4.88 units = 32.89
    60% MOP @ 290/t = 4.83/unit * 6.63 units = 32.02
    so 116.15/t of dry matter or 24.98/t fresh weight
    We are also currently selling straw at 70/t

    In which case (and I haven't checked your maths!), call it 25 worth of nutrients per wet tonne.

    So your 5t of muck are worth 125 to the arable farmer, carted and spread.
    If straw is worth 70/t (seems a little high to me?) ex yard, the in the swath it's worth, what, 60? Roughly, the ratio should be 2t of straw to 1t muck, with each of you doing half the work.

    It seems you are doing the majority of the work. A much fairer agreement would be you bale and cart, then he mucks out (or hauls) then spreads the waste.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Condi View Post
    In which case (and I haven't checked your maths!), call it 25 worth of nutrients per wet tonne.

    So your 5t of muck are worth 125 to the arable farmer, carted and spread.
    If straw is worth 70/t (seems a little high to me?) ex yard, the in the swath it's worth, what, 60? Roughly, the ratio should be 2t of straw to 1t muck, with each of you doing half the work.

    It seems you are doing the majority of the work. A much fairer agreement would be you bale and cart, then he mucks out (or hauls) then spreads the waste.
    Im assuming straw value is calculated on the same basis as muck value? Because to us stockmen it looks like a random figure plucked from the air at 60 /t in the swath! Yeah its valuable but not as valuable as muck in terms of nutrients surely? Wheat straw especially as it has little feed value?

    Fyi baling costs are about 3 a bale these days here and we get 4 bales to the tonne on average.

    Thanks for everyones input so far i may add. Much appreciated

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrown88 View Post
    Im assuming straw value is calculated on the same basis as muck value? Because to us stockmen it looks like a random figure plucked from the air at 60 /t in the swath! Yeah its valuable but not as valuable as muck in terms of nutrients surely? Wheat straw especially as it has little feed value?

    Fyi baling costs are about 3 a bale these days here and we get 4 bales to the tonne on average.

    Thanks for everyones input so far i may add. Much appreciated
    If he's selling it at 70/t ex yard, ie baled, and cleared, I simply put an approximate value for the baling and haulage. I was working on 5/Hesston for the baling cost, which at 650kg/bale is about 7.50/t and then 2.50/t for it to be cleared to a headland or nearby yard.

    The straw value is calculated on a 'market price' - ie what he could get by selling it to anyone else. The value in that is for bedding, not for nutrients. The muck only has one use, which are the nutrients in it, and hence they are priced in comparison with buying in those nutrients from anywhere else (bagged compounds).

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Dram View Post
    I'll have a try, not sure if my prices are spot on but they seem to be going up every other week.
    34% N @ 300/t = 8.82/unit * 5.81 units = 51.24
    46% TSP @310/t = 6.74/unit * 4.88 units = 32.89
    60% MOP @ 290/t = 4.83/unit * 6.63 units = 32.02
    so 116.15/t of dry matter or 24.98/t fresh weight
    We are also currently selling straw at 70/t
    You are way out on your costing

    5.81 units N at 300 = 2.52
    4.88 units p at 310 = 1.64
    6.63 units k at 290 = 1.60
    Total = 5.76 is the fert value of the muck.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Dram View Post
    I'll have a try, not sure if my prices are spot on but they seem to be going up every other week.
    34% N @ 300/t = 8.82/unit * 5.81 units = 51.24
    46% TSP @310/t = 6.74/unit * 4.88 units = 32.89
    60% MOP @ 290/t = 4.83/unit * 6.63 units = 32.02
    so 116.15/t of dry matter or 24.98/t fresh weight
    We are also currently selling straw at 70/t
    Sorry, but I disagree with the calculations. Best to keep units out of it in this case as analysis is kg/t. As already said, your prices per unit are badly wrong (should be 44p, 37p, 24p). Also, I suspect the analyis figures are per kg fresh weight but this would need to be confirmed. So:-

    N: 5.81kg * 88p/kg = 5.13
    P: 4.88kg * 67p/kg = 3.29
    K: 6.63kg * 48p/kg = 3.20

    11.62 all in. I think no adjustment is needed for DM, if for no other reason than it would make the muck worth only a couple of quid - not worth shifting!

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by always busy View Post
    You are way out on your costing

    5.81 units N at 300 = 2.52
    4.88 units p at 310 = 1.64
    6.63 units k at 290 = 1.60
    Total = 5.76 is the fert value of the muck.
    Agreed, if the analysis was in units, but that was bodged in!

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Dram View Post
    I'll have a try, not sure if my prices are spot on but they seem to be going up every other week.
    34% N @ 300/t = 8.82/unit * 5.81 units = 51.24
    46% TSP @310/t = 6.74/unit * 4.88 units = 32.89
    60% MOP @ 290/t = 4.83/unit * 6.63 units = 32.02
    so 116.15/t of dry matter or 24.98/t fresh weight
    We are also currently selling straw at 70/t
    Quote Originally Posted by always busy View Post
    You are way out on your costing

    5.81 units N at 300 = 2.52
    4.88 units p at 310 = 1.64
    6.63 units k at 290 = 1.60
    Total = 5.76 is the fert value of the muck.
    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree with the calculations. Best to keep units out of it in this case as analysis is kg/t. As already said, your prices per unit are badly wrong (should be 44p, 37p, 24p). Also, I suspect the analyis figures are per kg fresh weight but this would need to be confirmed. So:-

    N: 5.81kg * 88p/kg = 5.13
    P: 4.88kg * 67p/kg = 3.29
    K: 6.63kg * 48p/kg = 3.20

    11.62 all in. I think no adjustment is needed for DM, if for no other reason than it would make the muck worth only a couple of quid - not worth shifting!
    anyone else want to try the maths

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree with the calculations. Best to keep units out of it in this case as analysis is kg/t. As already said, your prices per unit are badly wrong (should be 44p, 37p, 24p). Also, I suspect the analyis figures are per kg fresh weight but this would need to be confirmed. So:-

    N: 5.81kg * 88p/kg = 5.13
    P: 4.88kg * 67p/kg = 3.29
    K: 6.63kg * 48p/kg = 3.20

    11.62 all in. I think no adjustment is needed for DM, if for no other reason than it would make the muck worth only a couple of quid - not worth shifting!
    That's what I make it on the given figures but should add I cant see how there can be anywhere near 5.81kg N in a ton of dung

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by jh. View Post
    That's what I make it on the given figures but should add I cant see how there can be anywhere near 5.81kg N in a ton of dung
    Why is that? We took a sample from numerous places on the heap, mixed it then sent a 500g sample. Don't see why the sample should be wrong really?

    What value would you expect there?

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Sorry I mean how much of the 5.81kg/N will actually be available to next crop. What sort of rate are you spreading

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    How much is available isn't the issue!!! When you buy a tonne of 34.5% N only 75% is used at best.

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    If you are using bagged N price , I think you would need know that the availability is similar but dung might be down at 15% so a huge difference.

    This ends up being some complicated sh1t if things get to this stage . Probably why so many choppers get switched on if deals can't be just done on a handshake

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree with the calculations. Best to keep units out of it in this case as analysis is kg/t. As already said, your prices per unit are badly wrong (should be 44p, 37p, 24p). Also, I suspect the analyis figures are per kg fresh weight but this would need to be confirmed. So:-

    N: 5.81kg * 88p/kg = 5.13
    P: 4.88kg * 67p/kg = 3.29
    K: 6.63kg * 48p/kg = 3.20

    11.62 all in. I think no adjustment is needed for DM, if for no other reason than it would make the muck worth only a couple of quid - not worth shifting!
    Your right I got the decimal point in the wrong place

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree with the calculations. Best to keep units out of it in this case as analysis is kg/t. As already said, your prices per unit are badly wrong (should be 44p, 37p, 24p). Also, I suspect the analyis figures are per kg fresh weight but this would need to be confirmed. So:-

    N: 5.81kg * 88p/kg = 5.13
    P: 4.88kg * 67p/kg = 3.29
    K: 6.63kg * 48p/kg = 3.20

    11.62 all in. I think no adjustment is needed for DM, if for no other reason than it would make the muck worth only a couple of quid - not worth shifting!

    Yes you have it right , I didn't notice it was kg, I hold my hand up I made a mistake.

  26. #26

    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrown88 View Post
    Im assuming straw value is calculated on the same basis as muck value? Because to us stockmen it looks like a random figure plucked from the air at 60 /t in the swath! Yeah its valuable but not as valuable as muck in terms of nutrients surely? Wheat straw especially as it has little feed value?

    Fyi baling costs are about 3 a bale these days here and we get 4 bales to the tonne on average.

    Thanks for everyones input so far i may add. Much appreciated
    Last time I had straw tested it was worth 28/ac using fert market prices at the time. Then when you add in the extra compaction from the baling and loading equipment, you can easily add 10/ac to cultivation costs. After that if your selling straw as a commodity then the profit is 12/ac taking the purchase price to 50/ac.

    The muck for straw deal will negate the 'profit' bit but then the mucks got to be carted and spread which is added cost again, but by doing the deal on a price per acre then you are paying for the baling and shifting of straw and he is paying for the haulage of muck and spreading it?

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Last time I had straw tested it was worth 28/ac using fert market prices at the time. Then when you add in the extra compaction from the baling and loading equipment, you can easily add 10/ac to cultivation costs. After that if your selling straw as a commodity then the profit is 12/ac taking the purchase price to 50/ac.

    The muck for straw deal will negate the 'profit' bit but then the mucks got to be carted and spread which is added cost again, but by doing the deal on a price per acre then you are paying for the baling and shifting of straw and he is paying for the haulage of muck and spreading it?
    I would suggest that removing the straw reduces combining cost ( no extra diesel for chopping ) & reduces cultivation cost
    as well as less slugs.
    Straw may be worth 28, but I'd much rather incorporate muck with some N rather than straw that will guzzle the N

    I would consider a fair deal to be
    livestock farmer pays for / does baling, straw & muck carting
    arable farmer pays for / does muck spreading
    as previously mentioned, it's easy if ALL of the livestock farmers straw comes from one farm & ALL of the muck goes back

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    Re: Pig muck value vs Wheat straw chopped

    Not an Arable or Pig farmer but presumably the arable farmer can cope without selling straw/incorporating muck but can the pig farmer cope without getting rid of the muck? Could this been grounds for an unfortunate balance of trade?

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