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Thread: dependant scotland

  1. #61
    Senior Member Scruffy Dug's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Recycled View Post
    as long as it keeps mayo spouting his bile on the subject its worth it
    Just my opinion, but if the pair of you decided to just private message each other with your slanging match I'm not sure if that many folk would miss it........

  2. #62
    Senior Member b slicker's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Assume Scotland gains independence:

    If major UK businesses with most of their customers in England,( eg RBS or Standard Life) retain their base or head office in Scotland, I presume they would pay Tax to a Scottish Exchequer.

    But if any of these businesses re-locate to England, to whom would they pay Tax?

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    Assume Scotland gains independence:

    If major UK businesses with most of their customers in England,( eg RBS or Standard Life) retain their base or head office in Scotland, I presume they would pay Tax to a Scottish Exchequer.

    But if any of these businesses re-locate to England, to whom would they pay Tax?
    I thought they said RBS would become English? I've got a business account with them and was told back along that at some time in the future my bank would no longer be called RBS but would become Spank & Spunkster or West & Saville something like that.

  4. #64
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    Assume Scotland gains independence:

    If major UK businesses with most of their customers in England,( eg RBS or Standard Life) retain their base or head office in Scotland, I presume they would pay Tax to a Scottish Exchequer.

    But if any of these businesses re-locate to England, to whom would they pay Tax?
    That, and a multitude of other questions, is the kind of thing I'd like to know before voting. This is probably going to be most important vote anyone in Scotland will ever take part in, is it too much to ask that we go to the polling station armed with some facts about what we're actually voting for? The SNP have had 80 years to form a coherent plan but with only 6 months to go nobody can say with any certainty what currency will be in my pocket this time next year.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    With a population of around 5.2million and if you take out the pensioners , the unemployed, the sick, children and students, the actual number left working to raise taxes to pay for and support a defence system, healthcare, social security and public sector expenditure is not enough ..........the numbers just don't stack up. Over 20% of the working population in Scotland are employed in the public sector......!
    If we vote yes it's going to cost a bloody fortune and there is no going back.

    FS

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    Re: dependant scotland

    I think people who operate businesses with activities both sides of the border could well find themselves having a tough time of it all. With two separate currencies potentially it could complicate a lot of transactions.

    Of course businesses above a certain size will probably move their situation to whichever side they deem has the most favourable tax regime. What has been promised or discussed behind closed doors we can only speculate, will the oil industry be offered concessions on tax revenues under the new system? Will they no longer be accountable to the HSE or Environment agency and the raft of regulations they impose on business? Who knows, but there does seem to be a great deal of unanswered questions hanging over the whole debate. Insisting that London are just blustering etc etc isn't an effective argument, big question marks remain over security and military commitments, currency, EU membership, justice systems and the banking systems. These are not quick fixes by anyone's measure.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Recycled's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I think people who operate businesses with activities both sides of the border could well find themselves having a tough time of it all. With two separate currencies potentially it could complicate a lot of transactions.

    Of course businesses above a certain size will probably move their situation to whichever side they deem has the most favourable tax regime. What has been promised or discussed behind closed doors we can only speculate, will the oil industry be offered concessions on tax revenues under the new system? Will they no longer be accountable to the HSE or Environment agency and the raft of regulations they impose on business? Who knows, but there does seem to be a great deal of unanswered questions hanging over the whole debate. Insisting that London are just blustering etc etc isn't an effective argument, big question marks remain over security and military commitments, currency, EU membership, justice systems and the banking systems. These are not quick fixes by anyone's measure.
    Finaly a worth while post from you on the subject mayo :-)

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I believe the US will shortly be exporting oil once again for the first time in ages due to fracking.

    The big problem with oil is that it is a volatile market and all that infrastructure in the North Sea will one day have to be decommissioned and that does not come cheap.

    In any event the money made in oil is by refining it: not extracting it. Two refineries in Scotland and five or so in the rest of the UK. Do the maths.
    Decommissioning is, was and always has been the responsibility of the installer - which is not the government, nor the taxpayer, decommissioning is an ongoing process on expired infrastructure at this moment in time and for several years past.

    There is extra revenue to be gained in refining oils however there is profit and taxation to be gained by extraction - as many countries around the world can testify.

    Cheers
    mac

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by brigadoon View Post
    Decommissioning is, was and always has been the responsibility of the installer - which is not the government, nor the taxpayer, decommissioning is an ongoing process on expired infrastructure at this moment in time and for several years past.

    There is extra revenue to be gained in refining oils however there is profit and taxation to be gained by extraction - as many countries around the world can testify.

    Cheers
    mac
    I didn't mean to suggest government would pay for it. More that the apparently endless North Sea gold mine will one day have to become a non-gold mine at the expense of operators. And decommissioning is far from cheap.

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    Red face Re: dependant scotland

    If the wankers, sorry bankers, who caused the crash want to leave Scotlandshire, fine, off you go.
    Currently, if you have a bank note from one of the Scottish banks on it, shops in the rest of the Uk usually WON'T accept them. Effectively we have our own currency.
    Yes campaign, of course not all the answers are there because there is no crystal ball.
    How come Scotland was a burden around Londons neck now they want us to stay?
    No campaign, what are they doing to keep us together?
    I think most are missing the point if it's the oil your focusing on. Have a look at renewables!
    As far as pulling out of the EU, not a clever move if you live in the remote and rural areas. It is that money that gave the infrastructure to many areas in the shape of roads and ferries. In the 80's the Integrated Development Plan, IDP, or as known locally, I Don't Pay scheme, put many crofters and farmers on their feet with grants for nearly every avenue in agriculture and fishing.
    i genuinely believe it will be a close vote in favour of staying together.
    Seems a bit of a rant but it's just me writing as I think.

  11. #71

    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyingscotsman View Post
    With a population of around 5.2million and if you take out the pensioners , the unemployed, the sick, children and students, the actual number left working to raise taxes to pay for and support a defence system, healthcare, social security and public sector expenditure is not enough ..........the numbers just don't stack up. Over 20% of the working population in Scotland are employed in the public sector......!
    If we vote yes it's going to cost a bloody fortune and there is no going back.

    FS
    Completely agree!
    Yet this fact seems to be glossed over by the fact that oil is going to save the day.

    If the SNP had concentrated on getting the unemployed into work and cutting the social security bill, then maybe I would have listened to them now, highly unlikely mind you.

  12. #72

    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgy Crofter View Post
    I think most are missing the point if it's the oil your focusing on. Have a look at renewables!
    I'd tend to agree with you if the great renewable boom that Salmond likes to laud actually had some Scottish input.

    He stood by and clapped when Scottish Power were sold to Iberdrola, and somehow thinks it is a Scottish boon with the amount
    of wind power we can generate, when every one of the turbines and technology is shipped in from abroad. All he seems
    to focus on funneling money and hope towards with regards to manufacturing is tidal and Carbon capture, 2 technologies that seem a million miles away.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Shields Kaizer View Post
    I'd tend to agree with you if the great renewable boom that Salmond likes to laud actually had some Scottish input.

    He stood by and clapped when Scottish Power were sold to Iberdrola, and somehow thinks it is a Scottish boon with the amount
    of wind power we can generate, when every one of the turbines and technology is shipped in from abroad. All he seems
    to focus on funneling money and hope towards with regards to manufacturing is tidal and Carbon capture, 2 technologies that seem a million miles away.
    And where do the turbines going up in england come from? abroad of course.
    Can scotland afford a defence system, social security etc? Can england afford these things with a defecit of 110 billion last year?
    Hypocracy is the buzz word of the better together campaign.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Scruffy Dug's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    With less than 6 months to go, a bit of clarity on key issues would be good. At the minute, it certainly looks like the rUK would not enter into a currency union with Scotland in the event of a Yes vote. That being the case, could you really be independent if someone else decides your interest rates etc. although you could say the same about joining the euro. It would make it very difficult to have control over your economy, as the eurozone crisis proved, as one size doesn't fit all when it come to economic policy. Nothing to stop Scotland issuing its own currency but the financial markets tend to wary of that, so our credit rating would be pretty poor. I suspect Salmond knows this, which is why he is so keen to hold onto Sterling. This is despite the SNP branding Sterling a 'dying currency' less than 10 years ago and proposing the Euro as the way forward, around about the time Ireland's 'Celtic Tiger' economy was being held up by Salmond as the model to follow. It serves as a timely reminder that he does get things badly wrong at times.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Dug View Post
    With less than 6 months to go, a bit of clarity on key issues would be good. At the minute, it certainly looks like the rUK would not enter into a currency union with Scotland in the event of a Yes vote. That being the case, could you really be independent if someone else decides your interest rates etc. although you could say the same about joining the euro. It would make it very difficult to have control over your economy, as the eurozone crisis proved, as one size doesn't fit all when it come to economic policy. Nothing to stop Scotland issuing its own currency but the financial markets tend to wary of that, so our credit rating would be pretty poor. I suspect Salmond knows this, which is why he is so keen to hold onto Sterling. This is despite the SNP branding Sterling a 'dying currency' less than 10 years ago and proposing the Euro as the way forward, around about the time Ireland's 'Celtic Tiger' economy was being held up by Salmond as the model to follow. It serves as a timely reminder that he does get things badly wrong at times.
    Scotland has no control over interest rates now, so whats the difference?
    The little englanders cant stop us using the pound if we wish, or the chinese yuan if we choose.

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    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    Scotland has no control over interest rates now, so whats the difference?
    The little englanders cant stop us using the pound if we wish, or the chinese yuan if we choose.
    Why don't you have the mickle and the muckle as your currency if you go? Save having to think up a new slogan

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    Scotland has no control over interest rates now, so whats the difference?
    The little englanders cant stop us using the pound if we wish, or the chinese yuan if we choose.
    I think you will find you can't just use anyone's currency howsoever you wish.

    Why people cannot see that Salmond is out for himself and no one else I am almost gobsmacked. He has already demonstrated he will say almost anything to get the Braveheart lot to vote his way.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Scruffy Dug's Avatar
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    Scotland has no control over interest rates now, so whats the difference?
    The little englanders cant stop us using the pound if we wish, or the chinese yuan if we choose.
    The difference is we are all part of the same economic policy, it would be very difficult to achieve your economic goals if whoever sets the interest rate has different targets. I certainly never suggested that the rUK could stop Scotland using Sterling, as you stated they are perfectly at liberty to do so. But that is a million miles from the currency union the SNP want.
    Are you happy to go into possibly the most important vote Scotland has ever had without knowing for certain key elements of what you are actually voting for?

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Dug View Post
    The difference is we are all part of the same economic policy, it would be very difficult to achieve your economic goals if whoever sets the interest rate has different targets. I certainly never suggested that the rUK could stop Scotland using Sterling, as you stated they are perfectly at liberty to do so. But that is a million miles from the currency union the SNP want.
    Are you happy to go into possibly the most important vote Scotland has ever had without knowing for certain key elements of what you are actually voting for?
    We all know that interest rates are set to suit the south east of england, regardles of the effect in scotland.
    The ludicrous high rates of the thatcher years being the prime example.
    We cannot know all the details before we vote, just as you never know how a govt will behave after it is elected and the manifesto long forgotten.
    Roll on independence .

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Rick View Post
    Why don't you have the mickle and the muckle as your currency if you go? Save having to think up a new slogan
    Perhaps we will resurrect the old scottish merk.

  21. #81
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    We all know that interest rates are set to suit the south east of england, regardles of the effect in scotland.
    The ludicrous high rates of the thatcher years being the prime example.
    We cannot know all the details before we vote, just as you never know how a govt will behave after it is elected and the manifesto long forgotten.
    Roll on independence .
    Obviously we can't know all the details, but the difference between voting in a government is they generally only put things in a manifesto that may be achievable to deliver. Salmond is offering things that he has no control over. He claims he can negotiate a currency union, Westminster has ruled it out. He claims Scotland would automatically gain entry into the EU, at best this is uncertain with leading EU figures cast doubts over Scotland's entry. He claims Scotland would be accepted as member of NATO, despite a cast iron promise that an independent Scotland won't allow nuclear weapons on its territory. As yet NATO have declined to comment. These are major economic and defence issues, yet they are shrouded in uncertainty.
    How exactly did the ludicrous high interest rates suit the south-east of England? If you use another country's currency, you're tied to their interest rates. Which won't be a problem until your inflation rate differs. As you know, the UK's interest rate has been at a record low for some time now, which has finally brought inflation back into line with Bank of England target. Now imagine not being able to influence your country's inflation rate because you can't change the interest rate. It could seriously hamper your economic progress.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Dug View Post
    Obviously we can't know all the details, but the difference between voting in a government is they generally only put things in a manifesto that may be achievable to deliver. Salmond is offering things that he has no control over. He claims he can negotiate a currency union, Westminster has ruled it out. He claims Scotland would automatically gain entry into the EU, at best this is uncertain with leading EU figures cast doubts over Scotland's entry. He claims Scotland would be accepted as member of NATO, despite a cast iron promise that an independent Scotland won't allow nuclear weapons on its territory. As yet NATO have declined to comment. These are major economic and defence issues, yet they are shrouded in uncertainty.
    How exactly did the ludicrous high interest rates suit the south-east of England? If you use another country's currency, you're tied to their interest rates. Which won't be a problem until your inflation rate differs. As you know, the UK's interest rate has been at a record low for some time now, which has finally brought inflation back into line with Bank of England target. Now imagine not being able to influence your country's inflation rate because you can't change the interest rate. It could seriously hamper your economic progress.
    You are making my arguement for me.
    Scotland has never controlled its interest rates, or its level of fuel duty, which have been set in westminster.
    Scotland will have control of most economic levers after independence, and control of interest rates will follow in due course.

  23. #83
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    You are making my arguement for me.
    Scotland has never controlled its interest rates, or its level of fuel duty, which have been set in westminster.
    Scotland will have control of most economic levers after independence, and control of interest rates will follow in due course.
    It's never had to deal with its inflation rate either. Which is best controlled by adjusting interest rates.
    On exactly what are you basing your belief that control of interest rates would follow? That would only occur if Scotland had its own currency, and that would bring its own problems as I pointed out earlier.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    [QUOTE=Scruffy Dug;226319]It's never had to deal with its inflation rate either. Which is best controlled by adjusting interest rates.
    On exactly what are you basing your belief that control of interest rates would follow? That would only occur if Scotland had its own currency, and that would bring its own problems as I pointed out earlier.[/Q

    Scotlands currency, whatever it may be ,will be a petro currency and will have no problems whatsoever.
    The only problem might be that it becomes too strong.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Petro currency it may be.North Sea oil production is declining,peaked years ago.Oil prices fluctuate wildly.Fine basis for a stable economy.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    [QUOTE=danseyspass;226333]
    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Dug View Post
    It's never had to deal with its inflation rate either. Which is best controlled by adjusting interest rates.
    On exactly what are you basing your belief that control of interest rates would follow? That would only occur if Scotland had its own currency, and that would bring its own problems as I pointed out earlier.[/Q

    Scotlands currency, whatever it may be ,will be a petro currency and will have no problems whatsoever.
    The only problem might be that it becomes too strong.
    Oh right.
    To say that the only problem is that it may become too strong is interesting, because you clearly don't see large fluctuations in the value of a currency as a problem. One of the main features of a petro currency is its sensitivity to the world oil price, which requires careful fiscal management in order to smooth out and stabilise the economy. John Swinney may well be making a decent go at finance minister for the Scottish Executive, but that is a world away from navigating the world of global finance.

  27. #87
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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Giles1 View Post
    Petro currency it may be.North Sea oil production is declining,peaked years ago.Oil prices fluctuate wildly.Fine basis for a stable economy.

    One of my best friends growing up is now working in the oil industry. The oil extraction has fallen, due to a lack of investment. There has been a turn recently with alot of attention and investment being put in and things look better. My friend is now married to the daughted of an ex-director of one of the oil companies so knows the inside story quite well - he has left me in no doubt there is plenty of oil still to be gotten. Thats not to say if Scotland became independant Holyrood wouldnt feck the job right up, but dont believe 'No' when they say its almost gone. They were saying that in '79 too.....
    If in doubt, yank it out!

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Sister and her husband work in oil industry on the drilling side as consultants.They say its there all right,just not profitable to get it out,hence the bigger companies investing elsewhere and indeed selling their rigs in the North Sea.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    I think after independence we should stop all exploration and gradually run down production since you all say that oil is worthless. Best sit on our reserves until such time as they are worth extracting.
    On no account do what crash gordon did, pumping max oil at $15 /barrel.

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    Re: dependant scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by danseyspass View Post
    I think after independence we should stop all exploration and gradually run down production since you all say that oil is worthless. Best sit on our reserves until such time as they are worth extracting.
    On no account do what crash gordon did, pumping max oil at $15 /barrel.
    North Sea oil is declining and will continue to do so. Much of the gas in those pipelines is now Norwegian or Ukrainian.

    If you don't believe me ask Jack Caley under which whose land you will find the caverns they store the gas in.

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