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Thread: Argosy 50Kw

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    Argosy 50Kw

    Hi

    Does anyone know anything, or better still have direct experience of the Argosy 50kw machine. From what Mr Google tells me it is a version of the Polaris machine that a couple of former employees copied and were convicted of doing so in the US.

    I have a limit on the grid of 50Kw (not a kw more) so wondered is this turbine still a possibility as according to its power curve it can exceed 50kw. Not as much as the Endurance e3120 or the WES 50 which are really 80 and 70kw units but probably up to mid 50s.

    Grateful for any info from those who know better.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    I never heard anything good about the Polaris. Endurance seems to be the pick of the bunch in that size, if you can afford it....

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Would be going for an Endurance e3120 but grid is limited to 50kw? Suggestions?

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertybobberty View Post
    Would be going for an Endurance e3120 but grid is limited to 50kw? Suggestions?
    Some of the installers are offering EMMA-based export limiters. They say that these are approved by most DNOs. I'm a little sceptical as you need a 100% available load to take the excess. A dump load (waste) wouldn't be within at least the spirit of the FIT regs.

    There probably is plenty of export capacity (transformers run cooler when it's windy) but they assume worst case scenario (everyone generating flat out, no-one using a drop). If you get a HH export meter, which you normally would at this scale, the amount exported every half hour would be very visible for them to see.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    Some of the installers are offering EMMA-based export limiters. They say that these are approved by most DNOs. I'm a little sceptical as you need a 100% available load to take the excess. A dump load (waste) wouldn't be within at least the spirit of the FIT regs.

    There probably is plenty of export capacity (transformers run cooler when it's windy) but they assume worst case scenario (everyone generating flat out, no-one using a drop). If you get a HH export meter, which you normally would at this scale, the amount exported every half hour would be very visible for them to see.
    FITs are certainly only available on power used or exported, dumping is not allowed. You would need to show that your generation was modified in times of over production by trimming or braking
    Ixworth Solar Farming Ltd.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Does a decent 50Kw turbine exist? It seems as with most of the smaller machines (ok with one or two exceptions ? Gaia?) that the R and D is being done on the hoof in the rush to get in before the FIT door slams shut or at least they have to drop their prices (as did the solar boys) when the numbers no longer add up.

    All I hear is poor reliability, poor customer service and failure to achieve anything like the promised production...note the huge and comprehensive disclaimer on the C&F site for their "world leading turbines".

    Can anyone from either personal experience or even hearsay recommend a 50kw machine that is worth considering?

    Please bear in mind that as I said in a previous post, whilst I'd love to go down the e3120 route I need a genuine 50Kw turbine (due to grid constraints) and not a 60, 70 or 80 dressed up as one.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    If I paid for a 50kw grid connection I would want to export 50kw for as long as possible so would be looking at a minimum 250kw turbine which at our average windspeed produces 30kw. On the rare occasions the turbine exceeds 50kw then dump loads used to protect the grid.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    ...On the rare occasions the turbine exceeds 50kw...
    On any sort of decent site I'd expect a decent 250kW turbine to produce an average of about 60-65kW (25% capacity factor). That's average over the year. For the winter months it'd be bursting 50 any time there was a bit of a breeze. You'd do well to find a dump load of 200kW that wouldn't raise eyebrows. No DNO would sign it off.

    The OP has said that even managing a 80kW machine (Endurance) into a 50kW connection is too much, though there might be something to be done. On the very best days mine runs at a 1-hour average of 75; my central heating can knock that back to 50 at full pelt.

    I think the key is to make sure you don't ever export crazy figures and cause overvoltage complaints/problems. They'll probably never bother you if you nudge 60 from time to time.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Just picked at random a WES 250 power curve

    http://www.windenergysolutions.nl/wes-250

    To gain 50kw would require a wind speed of 7 m/s. Our site is quite good at an average of 6.5 m/s but a dump load of hydraulic pumps and accumulators could significantly upgrade the utilisation factor if the power company have restricted export to 50 kw.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    The WES machines have been around quite a while and use a different control system which uses the increasing forces produced by increasing rotation speed to control the blade pitch.
    They also have some other unique aspects; gearbox and power converter so double losses.


    No disk brake. The stop system yaws the nacelle around 120 degrees so that the blade turns backwards and there is a ratchet in the gearbox that engages to stop the rotation. One of the interesting items on the list of faults that triggers this yawing to stop is a fault in the yaw system!


    Fast and variable blade rotation, 60-120 rpm for the 250Kw machine. Compare that to say the old Vestas V27 which runs at 33 or 43 rpm for a bit smaller rotor so the WES is really motoring!! Even the old Norwin now being flogged as an Endurance is 37 rpm.
    Not sure of the status of the Sheffield University machine that chucked its bakdes a couple of times. Anybody live near there and know?



    To my eye they look very industrial.
    I did look at the 80kw but the makers were unwilling to provide detailed tonal noise calculations from the data they had as needed by my planners. In the end the then dealer asked me to do them and in effect certify the machine I was thinking of buying!

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Was only quoting a WES just to highlight the size of machine that would be needed to obtain 50kw with the typical UK onshore site. Problem is planners use the nameplate capacity then cannot understand why I need a 250kw turbine to run a 30kw machine.
    If I was looking at a WES type machine than the NZ Windflow seems a step in the right direction with more modern controls.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertybobberty View Post
    Does a decent 50Kw turbine exist? It seems as with most of the smaller machines (ok with one or two exceptions ? Gaia?) that the R and D is being done on the hoof in the rush to get in before the FIT door slams shut or at least they have to drop their prices (as did the solar boys) when the numbers no longer add up.

    All I hear is poor reliability, poor customer service and failure to achieve anything like the promised production...note the huge and comprehensive disclaimer on the C&F site for their "world leading turbines".

    Can anyone from either personal experience or even hearsay recommend a 50kw machine that is worth considering?

    Please bear in mind that as I said in a previous post, whilst I'd love to go down the e3120 route I need a genuine 50Kw turbine (due to grid constraints) and not a 60, 70 or 80 dressed up as one.

    Thanks.
    ...so as regards the third last line of my post, I'm assuming that's a "No" then!

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Something tells me Northern Power does a 50 or 60kW turbine. The 100kW that they make seems to be a good job

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    Was only quoting a WES just to highlight the size of machine that would be needed to obtain 50kw with the typical UK onshore site. Problem is planners use the nameplate capacity then cannot understand why I need a 250kw turbine to run a 30kw machine.
    If I was looking at a WES type machine than the NZ Windflow seems a step in the right direction with more modern controls.
    I don't really get your thoughts on needing a 250KW rated turbine and derating to 50KW, I really doubt the economics of it would stack up.

    The windflow turbines are class 1 machines and will perform very poor on sites with average windspeeds below 8 m/s, (Orkney & Hebrides) they are almost as bad as the WES machines

    Try and source a second hand Enercon E33 you can derate them easy it is just a software tweek

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I don't really get your thoughts on needing a 250KW rated turbine and derating to 50KW, I really doubt the economics of it would stack up.

    The windflow turbines are class 1 machines and will perform very poor on sites with average windspeeds below 8 m/s, (Orkney & Hebrides) they are almost as bad as the WES machines

    Try and source a second hand Enercon E33 you can derate them easy it is just a software tweek
    Not really on about derating more of storage capping.

    If you take typical wind charts like these for manchester.

    http://data3.cas.manchester.ac.uk/2011/wind.html

    Daily average is normally below 7 m/s which on a 250 kw machine produces an output of less than 50 kw. What you need is to store the additional gust energy which can be achieved using hydraulics and accumulators.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    Not really on about derating more of storage capping.

    If you take typical wind charts like these for manchester.

    http://data3.cas.manchester.ac.uk/2011/wind.html

    Daily average is normally below 7 m/s which on a 250 kw machine produces an output of less than 50 kw. What you need is to store the additional gust energy which can be achieved using hydraulics and accumulators.
    I think you really need to study the half hourly data a 250Kw produces over a day using your sample windspeeds, you will then find that it will probably be impossible to store that much surplus energy, it will also render the project uneconomic .

    How on earth would Ofgem accredit your installation as a 50Kw DNC??

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I think you really need to study the half hourly data a 250Kw produces over a day using your sample windspeeds, you will then find that it will probably be impossible to store that much surplus energy, it will also render the project uneconomic .

    How on earth would Ofgem accredit your installation as a 50Kw DNC??
    The amount of power produced by a 250kw turbine is miniscule compared to the storage capacity of hydraulic accumulators.

    As for Ofgem its only the same as a hydro scheme with a mill pond the rating will go off the plate size of the generator which in this case would be 50kw.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    why not whack up four gaias, similar cost , under 50kw, and you will be awfy unlucky if they all blow down

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    The amount of power produced by a 250kw turbine is miniscule compared to the storage capacity of hydraulic accumulators.

    As for Ofgem its only the same as a hydro scheme with a mill pond the rating will go off the plate size of the generator which in this case would be 50kw.
    I very much doubt you could put a 50KW Generator into a 250KW size( i.e 25-30 metre diameter rotor) wind turbine, it would blow up!!!.

    Are hydraulic accumulators capable of storing electrical energy??

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I very much doubt you could put a 50KW Generator into a 250KW size( i.e 25-30 metre diameter rotor) wind turbine, it would blow up!!!.

    Are hydraulic accumulators capable of storing electrical energy??
    The 250kw turbine would be connected to a hydraulic pump which is then connected to an accumulator which then turns the 50kw turbine so the direct power of the wind is disconnected from the generator so it would not blow up.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    I would be really interested to see your ideas, calculations and costings for a hydraulic accumulator that could store >700MJ /hour for an unpredictable length of time!

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsider69 View Post
    I would be really interested to see your ideas, calculations and costings for a hydraulic accumulator that could store >700MJ /hour for an unpredictable length of time!
    +1

    Just thinking of December when most turbines ran at 40-50% capacity factor for the month. If there is an hydraulic accumulator that can stash tens of thousands of kWhs away until the summer, I'll invest. The 250 capped to 50 example would have roughly the same spare power to handle as a 100hp tractor running flat out, 24/7. That's either immense volumes of oil and/or huge pressures. What does a tractor do - 100lpm at 250 bar using 20hp? So 22 million litres to pack away a month's worth...

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Thinking outside the square here....

    I'm pretty sure that in the recent past I saw a tv program on a proposal to store energy in the form of compressed air in large bags underwater. the water pressure contains the air, so pressure vessels are not required. Can't remember how the bags were anchored (maybe it was water in the bags, not air) When required, the air (or water) is released to run a turbine, and presumably replenished when wind or solar comes back on line.

    Sounds too good to be true..but worth a thought.

    JV


    JV

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    I didn't think you could compress a liquid (pressurize the system but not compress the liquid) so the bags of water probably not a goer. Compressed air under water might but then it would have to be off shore - best stick to coal, could do with a bit of sulphur on the grass

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by windylamb View Post
    I didn't think you could compress a liquid (pressurize the system but not compress the liquid) so the bags of water probably not a goer. Compressed air under water might but then it would have to be off shore - best stick to coal, could do with a bit of sulphur on the grass
    Windylamb you are correct about water not working - but not for the reason you propose. My wooly thinking had the water in the bladder presurised by the water above it (assuming the bladder was anchored some way below the surface. The error in my argument is that the water has to be discharged via a turbine to a point no higher than the surface - so there is no net head and no gain in energy.

    air in the bladder is a different proposition - but big anchors needed!

    JV

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsider69 View Post
    I would be really interested to see your ideas, calculations and costings for a hydraulic accumulator that could store >700MJ /hour for an unpredictable length of time!
    If you think it impossible for a 250kw system then have a look at the 7MW system currently being installed in Scotland by Mitsubishi.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by e3120 View Post
    +1

    Just thinking of December when most turbines ran at 40-50% capacity factor for the month. If there is an hydraulic accumulator that can stash tens of thousands of kWhs away until the summer, I'll invest. The 250 capped to 50 example would have roughly the same spare power to handle as a 100hp tractor running flat out, 24/7. That's either immense volumes of oil and/or huge pressures. What does a tractor do - 100lpm at 250 bar using 20hp? So 22 million litres to pack away a month's worth...
    Where not talking of storing for months its just capping the excess wind on a 250kw machine above 7 m/s and then releasing that energy when the wind drops below 7 m/s. As highlighted already the daily average wind graph for Manchester is less than 7 m/s so the capping can be utilised during the daily slack periods. Its got to be worthwhile doing if you can increase your capacity factor from 20% to 80% just by going hydraulic.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    If you think it impossible for a 250kw system then have a look at the 7MW system currently being installed in Scotland by Mitsubishi.
    Is this what you are referring to ??http://www.artemisip.com/applications/wind-turbines

    If it is , it aint a Storage system to which you are looking for

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Is this what you are referring to ??http://www.artemisip.com/applications/wind-turbines

    If it is , it aint a Storage system to which you are looking for

    If you read the article above and follow the link at the end labelled Hydraulics for Wind it identifies a method for for both short term and long term storage using hydraulics. Since the article was written accumulators have improved to give a third viable option for medium term storage.

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    Re: Argosy 50Kw

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    If you read the article above and follow the link at the end labelled Hydraulics for Wind it identifies a method for for both short term and long term storage using hydraulics. Since the article was written accumulators have improved to give a third viable option for medium term storage.

    I really think that storage would be limited to gusts over seconds rather than several hours or even days of energy which you are looking for.

    If you could invent something you could be very rich

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