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Thread: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

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    Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Seems that as the EUs getting an even harder bashing from most folk at the moment (and I'm not without critiquing either...) what is likely to happen to all of the farm subsidies if we do pull out (basic payment, entry/higher level stewardship). Having spoken to a few local farmers, even the most efficient of farm businesses, could hardly renew older machinery and many even survive without receiving it. Those that have borrowed and invested money off of the back of it coupled with falling margins will default to the banks.

    Doesn't seem to have been discussed anywhere in the press. I can see that either home produced food prices will have to rise significantly or there will have to be substantial restructuring of the sector, i.e loss of small (livestock) enterprises and survival and possible agglomeration of bigger enterprises. Scary thought for many of us no doubt.

    Not sure if the government have a contingency, but I was minded to ask my local MP!

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    Senior Member LALANS's Avatar
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    I thought the UK actually paid in more to the EU budget than came back in subs so would that mean that a UK gov could continue to support agriculture at the same or higher level?

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Lets not kid ourselves, if there was no EU farm subsidies would have disappeared decades ago, doesn't matter which government you voted in.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Simple equation No EU equals No subsidy for agriculture in any way shape or form.

    Just look at some of the tory shit they spout and you will pretty soon see if we leave the EU, farming will be left out to dry. We all know that we cant survive without the added income that the EU support provides and the chance of market related return coving that in the short or medium term are non existent. Therefore for the forseeable future we wont have any income.

    as for UKIP they are even worse, the lib dems recognise the importance of farming to be fair, but they wont have any influence and so the best hope is Labour.

    But basically the tory MPs will try and rely on the country vote but will shaft us all if they get their wish to pull out of the EU

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    if subs go...prices will either rise...or fields will be empty....take the sfp out of contract farming maths and how does it look?

    tbh any govt would be silly to do away with subs....they'd only save enough money to run the nhs for about 5 days at a risk of having no food producing capacity for a year perhaps in the event the imports dried up

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by spin cycle View Post
    if subs go...prices will either rise...or fields will be empty....take the sfp out of contract farming maths and how does it look?

    tbh any govt would be silly to do away with subs....they'd only save enough money to run the nhs for about 5 days at a risk of having no food producing capacity for a year perhaps in the event the imports dried up
    Totally agree with all of the above. I think knowing our countries short termism they will decide that importing food will be cheaper, let UK farming go to the wall the discover that when there is no choice the cost of imported food will rocket.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Don't worry, UKIP won't get in power and the tories ain't going to pull out they're just trying to appease the euro sceptics.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by spin cycle View Post
    ....take the sfp out of contract farming maths and how does it look?
    Only thinking combineables...at todays piss poor markets modest yields will produce 1000 per hectare. Contractor can invest in some nice kit, pay his men and and leave a reasonable margin with a fee of 300 and the supply trade would like to take around 450. So still 250 in the kitty for the Landlord. SFP has been the gravy for Contract Agreements but obviously an important part of net income for smaller and less efficient producers. I would guess that if and when subs are removed the Contract Farmer is the guy who has his business best placed to go forward.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    really ....reading some of the land agent notes i thought pre price slump some combinables were yielding 160/ac to landowner....factor in lower prices i reckon they'll be struggling....indeed landowners switching to fbts......take away sfp it'd be f**ked IMO

    per ac 3.5t wheat @ 100...350
    less vc 150? less cost of working 120...30 for management sundries?......leaves 50 for sharing

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by spin cycle View Post
    really ....reading some of the land agent notes i thought pre price slump some combinables were yielding 160/ac to landowner....factor in lower prices i reckon they'll be struggling....
    per ac 3.5t wheat @ 100...350
    less vc 150? less cost of working 120...30 for management sundries?......leaves 50 for sharing
    Think Landlord will have have had a better crack than that pre price slump....but my point was that today and without any subs there may still be 250 for the Landlord before any share out which is far from a disaster for simply owning the land sit watching your capital appreciate whilst reaping a few beer tokens.
    Where do you get 100 per tonne from?....Sell spot today base feed wheat 120, Nov 2015 for crop in the ground 135.

    Edit....my numbers are all per hectare!

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    sorry bit out of date with wheat price....don't grow it....just going on what i heard at harvest .....time will tell

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    if we leave the EU , it will certainly be the death knell for subsidies.
    Whether it is the Tory free marketeers who kill it, or the socialists removing it from fat cat tories I do not know, but it will certainly have a very short life.
    What will this do? short term, many farmers will go to the wall. Long term , lower land prices, rents etc.
    The biggest danger will be dumping from the EU killing our markets as they did before we joined.
    one thing for certain is the pound will gain in the long term against the Euro which will not help farming in the UK.
    Ixworth Solar Farming Ltd.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Every country which can afford to, supports its farmers in one way or another as food (esp cheap food) is highly political.
    Whether we are in the EU or not, there will still be some form of support although, frankly, it would be great to have no support at all so we could bin environmental schemes and all the baggage that comes with them including the "right" to be inspected.

    If you can be bothered, plenty here:

    http://www.worldwatch.org/agricultur...strial-world-0

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    We would certainly be less competitive and imports would look good value. One argument is that if other governments want to use their tax payers money to make our food cheaper, why not import more? The flip side of that is what happens to our farmers and also there are arguments about food miles etc. There will probably always be a niche for local, high quality food so that is one thing which may not suffer. There are probably some products which don't travel well so maybe more people will err towards those. But it would certainly change the landscape some. I suspect a lot of farmers would go to the wall but as mentioned, land may become a lot cheaper, especially if the IHT / APR / Active Farmer situation is tightened up as well. So there may be opportunities for some. I suspect we would revert towards more extensive, low input / output farms in the long run with bulk commodities coming from overseas.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    get rid NZ survived so will we. iam pro Europe by the way

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    If the UK pulled out of the EU farming subsidies would stop almost over night. British farmers would still survive although the farming landscape would look quite different, the inefficient farmers would no longer be able to carry on farming, opening opportunities up for those wanting to gain a foot on the farming ladder, the confidence of youth would see the younger generation taking those opportunities.

    The removal of subsidies would not see an end to the environmental schemes or the inspection visits, many of the schemes are in place to protect the buyer, or at least to give them some knowledge of the food they are buying. The schemes are annoying, but a necessary requirement if you are selling into the market place. We have them here, some of which are more stringent than the UK although the inspections tend to be more practical.

    Personally I think the UK should stay in Europe and take the next logical step of joining the Euro. The UK needs Europe more than Europe needs the UK.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    If we had joined the Euro, we would now be bust. Look what is happening in Greece, Spain, Italy, France etc. Keeping the pound has saved us.

    I would leave the corrupt EU today. We pay in billions more than we get out. It is a corrupt socialist jobs for the boys madhouse.

    As for wanting a Labour government!!!!!!!!!! Well they did such a good job last time, didn't they NOT.

    This mansion tax would soon go down to smaller properties and farms are worth quite a lot. The jealous socialists would soon want your money to pay their bone idle mates to lie in bed all day.

    Labour ruin this country every time they get elected. This is a fact, at the end of every single Labour government unemployment is higher than at the start.

    Edward Miliband as Prime Minister,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what sort of joke is that? Edward Balls looking after the accounts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, madness.

    I loath Labour and the EU. (in case no one had noticed)

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    If the UK pulled out of the EU farming subsidies would stop almost over night. British farmers would still survive although the farming landscape would look quite different, the inefficient farmers would no longer be able to carry on farming, opening opportunities up for those wanting to gain a foot on the farming ladder, the confidence of youth would see the younger generation taking those opportunities.

    The removal of subsidies would not see an end to the environmental schemes or the inspection visits, many of the schemes are in place to protect the buyer, or at least to give them some knowledge of the food they are buying. The schemes are annoying, but a necessary requirement if you are selling into the market place. We have them here, some of which are more stringent than the UK although the inspections tend to be more practical.

    Personally I think the UK should stay in Europe and take the next logical step of joining the Euro. The UK needs Europe more than Europe needs the UK.
    Stewart.

    Assuming the younger generation you talk of are starting from scratch without assistance from "the bank of Mum, Dad, Grandad etc to back them"
    How in goods name are they going to raise the sort of capital needed these days to even take on the tenancy of a farm in the UK...let alone buy one ?

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    Senior Member Nithsdale Farmer's Avatar
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by NewQman View Post
    If we had joined the Euro, we would now be bust. Look what is happening in Greece, Spain, Italy, France etc. Keeping the pound has saved us.

    I would leave the corrupt EU today. We pay in billions more than we get out. It is a corrupt socialist jobs for the boys madhouse.

    As for wanting a Labour government!!!!!!!!!! Well they did such a good job last time, didn't they NOT.

    This mansion tax would soon go down to smaller properties and farms are worth quite a lot. The jealous socialists would soon want your money to pay their bone idle mates to lie in bed all day.

    Labour ruin this country every time they get elected. This is a fact, at the end of every single Labour government unemployment is higher than at the start.

    Edward Miliband as Prime Minister,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what sort of joke is that? Edward Balls looking after the accounts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, madness.

    I loath Labour and the EU. (in case no one had noticed)
    The Tories arnt doing a bad job of ***** it either......
    Last edited by b slicker; 04-11-14 at 07:42 PM.
    If in doubt, yank it out!

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by NewQman View Post
    If we had joined the Euro, we would now be bust. Look what is happening in Greece, Spain, Italy, France etc. Keeping the pound has saved us.

    I would leave the corrupt EU today. We pay in billions more than we get out. It is a corrupt socialist jobs for the boys madhouse.

    As for wanting a Labour government!!!!!!!!!! Well they did such a good job last time, didn't they NOT.

    This mansion tax would soon go down to smaller properties and farms are worth quite a lot. The jealous socialists would soon want your money to pay their bone idle mates to lie in bed all day.

    Labour ruin this country every time they get elected. This is a fact, at the end of every single Labour government unemployment is higher than at the start.

    Edward Miliband as Prime Minister,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what sort of joke is that? Edward Balls looking after the accounts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, madness.

    I loath Labour and the EU. (in case no one had noticed)
    Agreed labour dont normally do much for the country as a whole but I would be willing to bet that on the whole farming does better under labour than the conservatives. Simple fact that cheap food for all is part of their mantra.

    The conservatives on the other hand dont give a toss about us, even going back to Margret Thatcher, their insistance on breaking up the assetts of the milk board companies their free market attitude without any committment to remove the bollocks that goes with production and selling in the UK and hence cost.

    even in Europe where schemes exist that would benefit uk farmers they wont sign up because it means match funding from governement. Their stance on modulation from SFP so they can sypon off cash without funding it themselves.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    It is surprising how short sighted politicians and governments can be.
    Last week our farmers discussion group had a talk on a farmers visit to Russia, very close to the Ukrainian border. Huge farms actually producing with great difficulties. Apparently, according to the visitors, the main reason these farms are coming in to being is as a result of Putin realising his problems were as a result of shortage of food, hence calling on outside investment, and oligarcs.

    When you contrast that with the present situation in this country, the difference is astounding.
    For sixty years of my lifetime I have seen support for agriculture in one form or another, capital grants, subsidies, you name it.Most of the time it was production related, hence the incentive to invest.
    This year has been a difficult harvest, but still British farming has come up trumps, taken the harvest and now it is all redrilled.

    British agriculture has not abused support, it has built on it. Fantastic new equipment, technological advances, a sight to behold.
    This has helped farmers to continue to produce, even if very often it is inefficient: high input costs, high machinery etc but with the help of the SFP most will just balance the books.
    I have seen the decline of the pig industry, with the resultant high cost of imports, next it will be the dairy industry. Millibands one big cry is that people have no disposable income. There are two reasons for this, the cost of immigration and the cost of imports, food and fuel.
    We can never hope to be prosperous if we allow the supermarkets to screw the producer, as we so blatantly do.

    Even Boris is misinformed in this subject, and I thought they were farmers.

    Jack Caley

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    People have no disposable income to buy food because they spend it on other things, such as i phones and holidays.
    Why have Ryanair made record profits? Because the working man is using them. Walk through a town and notice how many folk, even young children, have got i phones. Mine is an old Nokia at 3.04 per month.
    If folk can't afford food, why is so much thrown away?

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Nithdale Farmer, in answer to your rather rude answer- the Tories are doing as well as they can to get this country out of the mess that Labour left. They have got the useless Lib Dem lot holding them back from sorting the job out.
    Yes they can do better and should have won the last election with a majority, but they didn't. But don't let us let Labour back in with their jealous policies which would bankrupt us again.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Nithsdale Farmer View Post
    The Tories arnt doing a bad job of fucking it either......
    Sorry have I missed something, the present government have just got us out of the deepest sh*t that it has ever been in.
    we have not seen the huge loss of jobs which has affected the rest of Europe.
    this is despite being warned by such worthies as the world bank etc. that we were taking the wrong direction.
    the only thing they are doing wrong is not keeping the pressure on as is needed because they know it would cost the next election.
    it is going to be a very long time before we are out of the hole that Tony and Gordon took us into
    Ixworth Solar Farming Ltd.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    It is surprising how short sighted politicians and governments can be. . . .
    You have to remember the primary job of any politician, anywhere in the world. This primary job is to get re-elected. With an average time between elections of 4 years, this means that each and every politician has (on average) 2 years to make a name for themself to get re-elected.

    ALL politicians policies and actions are geared for the election in 2 years time and worry about the fallout after that (if re-elected).

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by NewQman View Post
    People have no disposable income to buy food because they spend it on other things, such as i phones and holidays.
    Why have Ryanair made record profits? Because the working man is using them. Walk through a town and notice how many folk, even young children, have got i phones. Mine is an old Nokia at 3.04 per month.
    If folk can't afford food, why is so much thrown away?
    Could not agree more!
    Ixworth Solar Farming Ltd.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Sorry have I missed something, the present government have just got us out of the deepest sh*t that it has ever been in.
    we have not seen the huge loss of jobs which has affected the rest of Europe.
    this is despite being warned by such worthies as the world bank etc. that we were taking the wrong direction.
    the only thing they are doing wrong is not keeping the pressure on as is needed because they know it would cost the next election.
    it is going to be a very long time before we are out of the hole that Tony and Gordon took us into
    Even Tony the #@*& had the sense not to take us out of the EU. Good job, on the whole, upto now..... but IMO we are all screwed when those pillocks in power, with UKIP egging them on, take us out of the EU.
    If in doubt, yank it out!

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    You have to remember the primary job of any politician, anywhere in the world. This primary job is to get re-elected. With an average time between elections of 4 years, this means that each and every politician has (on average) 2 years to make a name for themself to get re-elected.

    ALL politicians policies and actions are geared for the election in 2 years time and worry about the fallout after that (if re-elected).
    Ironhead - just noticed - are you related to me?
    WH
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    There is no one more pro-European than me I can assure you, but the EU is in decline. We are fortunate we have not joined the Euro. Some may remember how enthusiastic I once was on the whole EU project, but time has proved me very very wrong indeed.

    The whole EU project has failed. It has become a resting place for useless, unelected and corrupt politicos on all sides. The idea that you can get a number of countries to accept the same monetary policy, much less fiscal policy, is nothing but a dream.

    You cannot have the UK and Germany slogging its guts out when simultaneously the French lower their retirement age and up the minimum wage. Throw in the European court of human rights and it is a farce. Add in unlimited immigration, which is costing you and me very dearly, and the whole project needs to be be consigned to the history books.

    A total waste of money.

    I am fairly happy with the conservatives so far, I thought Osborne was too young for the job but he has made some very unpopular decisions and he is dragging us out of the mire which Labour so happily sold us into.

    Vote red? Jesus man you would have to be a complete lunatic, it was Labour who brought in human rights, who raided the national pension pot and who sold the UKs gold reserves during a historic low. No way.

    No government of any colour is going to pay scant attention to farming, it is a non-issue, and the industry employs virtually no one. The most important political issue we have right now is of the economy, because without that the whole damn country could die.

    I will upset some now with this comment but I can tell you, I am totally and singularly uninterested in the plight of any public servants, police, fire brigade or teachers et al and their non-pay rises. The private sector is not handing out pay rises and has been until now shedding jobs like no tomorrow. The public sector gets very good pensions, far in excess of what we do in the private sector, so I say strike all you like, I'm not interested. Until the economy is back on track I would suggest they shut the hell up.

    Labour gave so much money to the NHS yet it still isn't enough. The whole public sector is bloated and needs to be severely trimmed. This is how Blair managed to get re-elected, he directly employed so many people himself.

    Blue blue blue I'm afraid. In fact I'd like to see them with a UKIP coalition.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    There is no one more pro-European than me I can assure you, but the EU is in decline. We are fortunate we have not joined the Euro. Some may remember how enthusiastic I once was on the whole EU project, but time has proved me very very wrong indeed.

    The whole EU project has failed. It has become a resting place for useless, unelected and corrupt politicos on all sides. The idea that you can get a number of countries to accept the same monetary policy, much less fiscal policy, is nothing but a dream.

    You cannot have the UK and Germany slogging its guts out when simultaneously the French lower their retirement age and up the minimum wage. Throw in the European court of human rights and it is a farce. Add in unlimited immigration, which is costing you and me very dearly, and the whole project needs to be be consigned to the history books.

    A total waste of money.

    I am fairly happy with the conservatives so far, I thought Osborne was too young for the job but he has made some very unpopular decisions and he is dragging us out of the mire which Labour so happily sold us into.

    Vote red? Jesus man you would have to be a complete lunatic, it was Labour who brought in human rights, who raided the national pension pot and who sold the UKs gold reserves during a historic low. No way.

    No government of any colour is going to pay scant attention to farming, it is a non-issue, and the industry employs virtually no one. The most important political issue we have right now is of the economy, because without that the whole damn country could die.

    I will upset some now with this comment but I can tell you, I am totally and singularly uninterested in the plight of any public servants, police, fire brigade or teachers et al and their non-pay rises. The private sector is not handing out pay rises and has been until now shedding jobs like no tomorrow. The public sector gets very good pensions, far in excess of what we do in the private sector, so I say strike all you like, I'm not interested. Until the economy is back on track I would suggest they shut the hell up.

    Labour gave so much money to the NHS yet it still isn't enough. The whole public sector is bloated and needs to be severely trimmed. This is how Blair managed to get re-elected, he directly employed so many people himself.

    Blue blue blue I'm afraid. In fact I'd like to see them with a UKIP coalition.
    Holy shit I think I agree with you.

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