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Thread: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

  1. #61
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I predict the Germans will eventually realise the EU is nothing but a burden for them and they will leave it.

    Regarding immigration, no one on this forum is against people entering our shores to work. What people are against, is the total free access to education, health care and benefits that many migrants receive. The country cannot afford this kind of burden, and furthermore, if I was to move to say Bulgaria, or France, or Spain, and work, I would not receive access to any of these things for free. It is this issue which makes the British public rightly upset.

    There is also the on-going and hidden cost of migrants who do not speak English at all, a relative of mine sends their child to a large comprehensive and it now has pupils from about 4 different faiths and with 10 different languages. This means a lot of teaching assistants and interpreters which you and I are all paying for. The same is repeated in the NHS and with the police and social services. The whole system is unable to deal with these people effectively.
    report out today showing European immigrants over the last decade have been net contributors to the tune of a lot of money. Not only that but they have helped us grow our economy and do many jobs that the welfare state indigenous population won't

  2. #62
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy farmer View Post
    report out today showing European immigrants over the last decade have been net contributors to the tune of a lot of money. Not only that but they have helped us grow our economy and do many jobs that the welfare state indigenous population won't
    I don't care if they contribute or not, or if they do jobs others will not, I am against foreign people having free access to this country's services if the same is not the case in their respective own countries.

    It is your money being spent on your NHS and other services to support these people.

  3. #63
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. I recall seeing an industry expert on TV explaining how the internet and email would be the end of Royal Mail as no letters would be sent again. He didn't foresee the extra room that most sorting offices now have for Amazon packets alone. These things are difficult to predict as they involve macro and micro effects. Land prices would probably fall. Imports are going to look better value. Smaller farmers in the UK are going to be more competitive against bigger ones. Maybe some stagnating subsidy harvesters would be driven out and new innovation would happen that we can't even imagine today.

    Whether it's subsidy to blame or not, there is not enough innovation in UK farming today. Not enough young blood is given a stake, for better or for worse. We need the thrusting young minds of today to be given a chance, even they make a few mistakes along the way because the old man is never going to come up with anything fresh is he? He's probably retracted into more what Grandad did, or is just happy handing his money over to advisors and then blaming the world for his problems. I don't know whether binning subsidy would help that but from looking around, SFP allows farms which just don't make money to trundle along with Mum and Dad in the Merc and the kids slaving for nothing, waiting for them to die. They will probably do the same thing. Nothing at the moment FORCES farming families to look at business performance and the real issues around proper succession planning and honest, if hard conversations. Nothing much anyway. You just collect your SFP. Do a bit here and there and then the kids get it tax free when it's too late and they are already tired and bitter about the whole job.

    If farming and food production is important to the UK then the tax and support systems need to focus on diverse, progressive, environmentally positive and efficient businesses. It needs to get the dead wood out and reward the smart guys, of whatever age. It doesn't do that today as you can inherit 400 acres, do a few ELS jobs and live of it while you drive around in your machines and pretend to be doing something and hope you don't lose all your subsidy in the process. I see it happening.

    If Ukraine wants to subsidise grain, lets buy it off them cheap on the back of EU tax payers and meanwhile produce artisan products to sell to the Chinese and Russians and whoever else at a huge mark up. We are only a tiny island, that model should work. We won't forget how to grow wheat and if the Ukraine stuff gets dear, we'll buy it elsewhere or grow our own again. We either embrace a global economy or we don't.
    I have no idea what agricultural industry you are referring to but bears little resemblance to the one I am working in, I can tell you that.

    Smaller farms more competitive than bigger ones? Land prices will fall? Nothing forces families to innovate?

    I was speaking to family farmer customers today, do you think they are just sat around doing it all for a laugh?

  4. #64
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Pasty, you couldn't be more wrong. My county is full of innovation and focus. To start with, just about no one inherits 400 acres (bar a bit of heathery mountain) here. There is plenty of profit focus on dairy farms, more relevant now more than ever with a Milk price soon to be in the lower twenties. We want to do productive work every day, and we want to see profit from it. Well, that's why I get up in the morning.

  5. #65
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    Post Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    I don't want to offend anybody and I can only speak as I find. Around here, inheriting 2-400 acres it pretty much the thing that happens. I have not studied the variety of UK agriculture so maybe I have a localised view but down here it is hanging on. Hanging on and waiting for the old man to die and then panic. South devon mixed farms. Anyone seriously disagree?

    Doing it it for a laugh? Sometimes I wonder. At what point does the old man sit down with the solicitor, the accountant, his offspring and have a full and frank? If you know of cases where that has happened I applaud that old man. I hope I can be that old man some day, probably sooner than I think.

    Dairyfarmer, I'm not going to argue with you. We have been where you are and sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. All I would say is that if I were going into dairy now, I would want to secure my market and not rely on the Russians or whatever. Thinking back, was it Milk Marque or some such that was the in thing in the late 80's? My memory fails me. We were in it anyway and it all got rolled into some other crap and we had to bail out.

    Is there a market for small co-op dairy enterprises to market milk locally? I would buy from that, even if it was a good few pence more per pint.

    If subsidy goes it will not be about milking cows and moaning about the price. It will be about competing with the nutters with mobile parlour and a slick marketing campaign to sell your product to the people.

  6. #66
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Pasty, you couldn't be more wrong. My county is full of innovation and focus. To start with, just about no one inherits 400 acres (bar a bit of heathery mountain) here. There is plenty of profit focus on dairy farms, more relevant now more than ever with a Milk price soon to be in the lower twenties. We want to do productive work every day, and we want to see profit from it. Well, that's why I get up in the morning.
    I have no wish to comment on ANY of Pasty's postings. The rest of the above quote does however ring true for my (slightly remote) relatives who live in NI, plus a lot more dairying acquaintances in Eastern England. No government is going to preside over a bonanza for dairy farmers in the foreseeable future, nor are they going to want to be associated with major declines in that industry. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the late Milk Marketing Board had many strengths as well as its obvious weaknesses, and any government presiding over the departure of England and Wales from the EU might well re-introduce something updated and different, but basically similar.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by RGSP View Post
    I have no wish to comment on ANY of Pasty's postings.
    You do know I'm a Greenpeace / Guardian / Homosexual / Vegetarian / Ethnic Minoroty / Disabled Badger plant don't you? Just in case that might change your mind.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    You do know I'm a Greenpeace / Guardian / Homosexual / Vegetarian / Ethnic Minoroty / Disabled Badger plant don't you? Just in case that might change your mind.
    I don't want to pass any comment on your personal affairs: they are your affair and not of much interest to most of us.

  9. #69
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by RGSP View Post
    I don't want to pass any comment on your personal affairs: they are your affair and not of much interest to most of us.
    Amen.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by RGSP View Post
    I have no wish to comment on ANY of Pasty's postings. The rest of the above quote does however ring true for my (slightly remote) relatives who live in NI, plus a lot more dairying acquaintances in Eastern England. No government is going to preside over a bonanza for dairy farmers in the foreseeable future, nor are they going to want to be associated with major declines in that industry. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the late Milk Marketing Board had many strengths as well as its obvious weaknesses, and any government presiding over the departure of England and Wales from the EU might well re-introduce something updated and different, but basically similar.
    This is not about England and Wales!

    What about Northern Ireland and Scotland? In this union we are told we are better together and all equal 'partners'.
    If in doubt, yank it out!

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by RGSP View Post
    I have no wish to comment on ANY of Pasty's postings. The rest of the above quote does however ring true for my (slightly remote) relatives who live in NI, plus a lot more dairying acquaintances in Eastern England. No government is going to preside over a bonanza for dairy farmers in the foreseeable future, nor are they going to want to be associated with major declines in that industry. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the late Milk Marketing Board had many strengths as well as its obvious weaknesses, and any government presiding over the departure of England and Wales from the EU might well re-introduce something updated and different, but basically similar.

    Why? Surely his opinion is as valid as anyone else's here?

    I would suggest that pasty's view is coloured by his own personal experience, but then again so is Dairyfarmer111's. I actually think they're both right, there are several farms within walking distance of where i'm sitting now that would fulfil the criteria for one or other of their visions. there are plenty of forward thinking efficient farms and farmers out there, but there are also plenty where the older generation are hanging on either because they have no successor or are unwilling to step aside and give their children a go. SFP is enabling such farms to do this, to just bumble along without really producing anything worthwhile. This is causing the industry to stagnate, blocking opportunities for new entrants. I do feel that SFP is enabling pasty's vision of farming whilst hindering those that fulfil DF111's vision.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Why? Surely his opinion is as valid as anyone else's here?

    I would suggest that pasty's view is coloured by his own personal experience, but then again so is Dairyfarmer111's. I actually think they're both right, there are several farms within walking distance of where i'm sitting now that would fulfil the criteria for one or other of their visions. there are plenty of forward thinking efficient farms and farmers out there, but there are also plenty where the older generation are hanging on either because they have no successor or are unwilling to step aside and give their children a go. SFP is enabling such farms to do this, to just bumble along without really producing anything worthwhile. This is causing the industry to stagnate, blocking opportunities for new entrants. I do feel that SFP is enabling pasty's vision of farming whilst hindering those that fulfil DF111's vision.
    It's not really my vision, more an observation. I've just made a list of 7 family farms where I went to school with the kids 35 years ago, still know them well and those kids are not yet running the business or even have any significant input into decision making. I believe many of those people must be frustrated and disillusioned. Maybe some are not. If they aren't, that is even more worrying. I can think of one local farming family who has thought forward and put faith in their kids, also around my age. Mum and dad now are in their 70's and run some good ewes on 100 or so acres and the sons have their own farms, one of them multiple farms, acquired as far as I can see through hard work, sensible risk taking, innovation, democracy, use of the family asset base and most of all being allowed and encouraged to make progress. They've made the rest of us look stupid to be honest. Most 70 year olds are looking to wind down the hours, secure their retirement and not take any risks with the capital they have. One good way to kill a business in my view. I'm not saying they shouldn't look at life that way but very few of them are going to be able to compete with the energy of a well read 30 year old who sooner or later, will be buying their farm while their own kids flounder.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    Hi Jack

    Just how have subsidies benefitted the nation? They have benefitted a few landowners who were relatively well of anyway and did not need the extra help. They have not benefited the agricultural industry in general, quite the reverse. The payments of subsidies stifle innovation and create inefficiencies leading to an industry that stagnates.

    Regards
    Stewart
    If you noticed I also included capital grants.
    I was a Ministry Land Drainage Officer. Grant aid enabled farmers to get maximum production at a time when agricultural production was dismal. Do not forget I remember food rationing, I do not know how old you are, but maybe if you had had to experience a weekly ration of meat of about 6 ounces you might realise just how much British agriculture has given the nation.
    Production subsidies also enabled the farmer to invest in modern production: machinery, fertilizers, sprays etc with confidence that he would be rewarded, even if the subsidies did in actual fact actually depress the commodity price ie cheap food.
    I agree times have moved on, and the SFP still survives, but I would point out in this area that because farming has remained viable, the farmer has been able to invest in order to keep his costs low and cope with extremely low commodity prices. How many Mars bars does a tonne of wheat buy now in comparison to the time when food rationing finished and I rode my bike 10 miles on the rumour of a shop having Mars bars to sell.
    One can easily adopt a polar attitude without the benefit of a much broader longer picture.

    Getting rid of SFP will not mean opportunities for future entrepreneurial youngsters. They need vast amount of capital to start now, not like it was when I was young.

    Jack Caley

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    If you noticed I also included capital grants.
    I was a Ministry Land Drainage Officer. Grant aid enabled farmers to get maximum production at a time when agricultural production was dismal. Do not forget I remember food rationing, I do not know how old you are, but maybe if you had had to experience a weekly ration of meat of about 6 ounces you might realise just how much British agriculture has given the nation.
    Production subsidies also enabled the farmer to invest in modern production: machinery, fertilizers, sprays etc with confidence that he would be rewarded, even if the subsidies did in actual fact actually depress the commodity price ie cheap food.
    I agree times have moved on, and the SFP still survives, but I would point out in this area that because farming has remained viable, the farmer has been able to invest in order to keep his costs low and cope with extremely low commodity prices. How many Mars bars does a tonne of wheat buy now in comparison to the time when food rationing finished and I rode my bike 10 miles on the rumour of a shop having Mars bars to sell.
    One can easily adopt a polar attitude without the benefit of a much broader longer picture.

    Getting rid of SFP will not mean opportunities for future entrepreneurial youngsters. They need vast amount of capital to start now, not like it was when I was young.

    Jack Caley
    Some very good points but I still think it's difficult to predict the outcome. There are opportunities already for youngsters, it's just seeing them and getting someone to agree. It might be someone with a light and nimble mobile egg laying operation who can work with a beef / dairy / sheep farmer and run over his grazed fields, adding lots of precious fertilizer for free whilst cleaning up a lot of bad stuff and making some good money himself. Or the same with broilers or turkeys or whatever. There must be a 1000 other ideas. In time that young farmer may have built a solid and profitable business and with reasonable land prices, may be able to secure a little of his own, then a little more. We could all do with being a bit more nimble and lighter on our feet. If you are a land owner and some young nutcase comes to you with a crackpot idea, at least think about it.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    As much as I would love to do away with subs and all the crap that goes with them,I believe agricultural products are too volatile price wise to enable businesses to run without a backbone of support,certainly when it comes to borrowing money in whatever form.If you as a starting out producer went to Mr./Mrs. RBS and said I want to borrow some money for my project,here is a prediction of future income for the next 5 years,he/she would (bloody well should),ask whats happened in the last 5 years?And you would have to say ahem,well last year was good,the one before it rained/China wasn't buying,F and M,prices were crap,etc.But,SFP and LFAS was x in each of those years regardless,(unless you forgot to dot an i).By the way,for the next 5 years there is no sub.You would and realistically should,in view of recent banking practices,be told to get stuffed,unless you had a cast iron market.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Giles1 View Post
    As much as I would love to do away with subs and all the crap that goes with them,I believe agricultural products are too volatile price wise to enable businesses to run without a backbone of support,certainly when it comes to borrowing money in whatever form.If you as a starting out producer went to Mr./Mrs. RBS and said I want to borrow some money for my project,here is a prediction of future income for the next 5 years,he/she would (bloody well should),ask whats happened in the last 5 years?And you would have to say ahem,well last year was good,the one before it rained/China wasn't buying,F and M,prices were crap,etc.But,SFP and LFAS was x in each of those years regardless,(unless you forgot to dot an i).By the way,for the next 5 years there is no sub.You would and realistically should,in view of recent banking practices,be told to get stuffed,unless you had a cast iron market.
    Which is why subs increase land prices. Would be hugely more risky without them.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    If you noticed I also included capital grants.
    I was a Ministry Land Drainage Officer. Grant aid enabled farmers to get maximum production at a time when agricultural production was dismal. Do not forget I remember food rationing, I do not know how old you are, but maybe if you had had to experience a weekly ration of meat of about 6 ounces you might realise just how much British agriculture has given the nation.
    Production subsidies also enabled the farmer to invest in modern production: machinery, fertilizers, sprays etc with confidence that he would be rewarded, even if the subsidies did in actual fact actually depress the commodity price ie cheap food.
    I agree times have moved on, and the SFP still survives, but I would point out in this area that because farming has remained viable, the farmer has been able to invest in order to keep his costs low and cope with extremely low commodity prices. How many Mars bars does a tonne of wheat buy now in comparison to the time when food rationing finished and I rode my bike 10 miles on the rumour of a shop having Mars bars to sell.
    One can easily adopt a polar attitude without the benefit of a much broader longer picture.

    Getting rid of SFP will not mean opportunities for future entrepreneurial youngsters. They need vast amount of capital to start now, not like it was when I was young.

    Jack Caley
    Capital grants may have been a help to farmers and possibly may have helped lift production, or quite possibly that production would have lifted without the aid of a grant.

    There may have been a place for grants immediately post war, during the food rationing era, that is now long gone. Should grants or subsidy payments remain in a modern agricultural environment?

    I agree that it is easy to adopt a polar attitude without the benefit of a broader picture. I have farmed in a subsidy paying, protectionist environment and a free market one so have a relatively broad, large picture view.

    A free market approach tends to allow the more entrepreneurial younger generation an easier start than is the case in a protectionist world. Capital is required, that is what banks are for, getting the capital is not that hard, paying it back is more difficult.

    Regards
    Stewart

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Subsidy in any form does not increase land prices, you lot are joking right? The income from land from farming it or not, bears no resemblance to its value. I heard of 21 acres being sold for some 20 odd grand an acre the other day simply because someone with a house wanted the access. All too many times the buyers are non farming and look at it as an investment.

    Most farmers dont buy land they cant afford it, 20 odd years of crap returns doesnt give you much of a capital reserve.
    People with money invest in land and the value is in no way related to SFP, most of the external buyers dont even know it exists.

    How are new entrants going to be encouraged? volatile prices and no asset base, utter tripe to think there will be a raft of entrants in those circumstances. And as for land value falling, why are they suddenly going to make a whole load more of it so the investment banks wont want it?

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Which is why subs increase land prices. Would be hugely more risky without them.
    Exactly.Also can we afford to mess with our food supplies by having an unsubsidised agriculture in a world with increasingly unpredictable climates and rapidly rising populations?I really don't like subs and all they entail,but they do provide stability and employment with its attendant benefits to the area, in areas that otherwise would be unviable.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Giles1 View Post
    Exactly.Also can we afford to mess with our food supplies by having an unsubsidised agriculture in a world with increasingly unpredictable climates and rapidly rising populations?I really don't like subs and all they entail,but they do provide stability and employment with its attendant benefits to the area, in areas that otherwise would be unviable.
    Yes, that is true.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    SFP has no bearing on land prices. It's a pretty straight forward fact- a lot of land buyers are not farmers and would not automatically hold entitlements for any of it anyway.

    I am not sure quite what agenda is being peddled by who. Stewart, whose knowledge appears about 30 years out of date, and he believes a free market is one where a major player in it is a monopoly, or Patsy, who seems to have a serious grudge against anyone who has inherited land and so he proceeds to complain those that have are farming it badly, getting it all wrong and unable to innovate. And again, his knowledge appears 30 years out of date.

    I am not certain either of these contributors understand the sums involved when it comes to SFP. Even a 2000 acre arable farmer, whose subsidy cheque might be considered large, is hardly a subsidy junkie when his net profit when returns are good can be by anyones measure, fairly substantial. On the other hand, the guy with a 200 acre Dairy farm is not going to suddenly be viable with his SFP or not, either he is good at the bloody job or he isn't. SFP is alright but it hasn't and can't save a failing business- hence the vast numbers of people who have got out of farming actively in any great shade in the last 20 years.

    I do really wonder what industry you both speak of, as I said earlier, it is not the one I am working in.

    Anyone who thinks the SFP should go because he thinks he will be able to get his foot on the ladder is dreaming- you won't just grab hold of 200 acres and start some kind of innovative start-up. Even if it dropped rents to a degree, there will still be rent and you will still have to pay it. You will still be against larger more established businesses who again have the ability to borrow and service debt at levels greater than your own- you can see this in Somerset quite clearly when the moment land becomes available, it is snapped up by dairy farmers regardless of whether there is SFP or not involved.

    Plenty of people moan, yes. But don't kid yourself they weren't making money when milk was 35p and Corn was 180.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAndy View Post
    Subsidy in any form does not increase land prices, you lot are joking right? The income from land from farming it or not, bears no resemblance to its value. I heard of 21 acres being sold for some 20 odd grand an acre the other day simply because someone with a house wanted the access. All too many times the buyers are non farming and look at it as an investment.

    Most farmers dont buy land they cant afford it, 20 odd years of crap returns doesnt give you much of a capital reserve.
    People with money invest in land and the value is in no way related to SFP, most of the external buyers dont even know it exists.

    How are new entrants going to be encouraged? volatile prices and no asset base, utter tripe to think there will be a raft of entrants in those circumstances. And as for land value falling, why are they suddenly going to make a whole load more of it so the investment banks wont want it?
    Then you get into a debate about niche land and farm land. We have sold (to pay of another freeloader) some land in the last few years and we picked the niche bits. In front of houses. Suitable for horsey types. Otherwise desirable etc. Maximum buck for minimum acres. Other bits we tried couldn't even raise 4k an acre so we kept them.

    When you see farms up for sale now, there are an increasing amount of lots. Agents (and farmers) aren't daft. They know which bits will fetch the most and then you sell the rest, possibly split into 2 or 3 so you get some buyers in who would have not been able to raise the full whack.

    I think the value of niche land is just a society thing and we shouldn't apply that to the value of general farm land which is a different matter and will be effeced by the overall economics of farming, which includes any sort of government payments.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    It is an interesting question

    Let us assume we pull out of the EU
    Let us assume that subsidies are cut massively

    Remember that if land prices fall, this might not mean that we get more farm land on the market. There are a lot of people out there with money who are looking for small farms, somewhere to keep a few ponies, a few chickens, perhaps a few sheep.
    At the other end of the market there are people with money looking for a nice house in its own extensive grounds.

    It may merely mean that farmers are renting land from a different sort of landlord. The rent might be more reasonable but you might find that part of the tenancy agreement is that you have cattle on certain fields because that's the look the landlord wants to cultivate

    As to what sort of farmer gets out. A large owner occupier will have capital behind him, but a large tenant might find that his sums don't add up any more.
    With the small farmer, given that a lot of them depend as much on the wife's earnings as they do the SFP it might be that they de-stock a bit more, he gets a job as well and they just potter at the weekend
    Why sell up? They've already got the house in the country in its own grounds. If you don't have a rent to pay and can pick up enough work to pay the bills, why sell up and move into town?

    I don't know what will happen. It could be the Euro goes belly up before we can leave the EU in which case in that mess all bets are off, we might end up being part of something like the old EEC where it's just a trading area and countries subsidise their own industries within broad outlines set by treaty.

    Jim

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    'The value of land is a just a society thing and it shouldn't be applied to general farm land etc etc...'

    Ah, but it does. City money IS buying large tractors of general farm land- for investment purposes. The monies received in SFP on these areas, would be pennies compared to the money required in capital outlay- in fact, I doubt the rental value of the land comes close to offering some kind of return on it, but it appreciates in value all the time anyway, and so it has to- you have no chance of repaying the cost through farming it alone.

    As for the EU; its already on its way to being junked.

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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Webster View Post
    It is an interesting question

    Let us assume we pull out of the EU
    Let us assume that subsidies are cut massively

    Remember that if land prices fall, this might not mean that we get more farm land on the market. There are a lot of people out there with money who are looking for small farms, somewhere to keep a few ponies, a few chickens, perhaps a few sheep.
    At the other end of the market there are people with money looking for a nice house in its own extensive grounds.

    It may merely mean that farmers are renting land from a different sort of landlord. The rent might be more reasonable but you might find that part of the tenancy agreement is that you have cattle on certain fields because that's the look the landlord wants to cultivate

    As to what sort of farmer gets out. A large owner occupier will have capital behind him, but a large tenant might find that his sums don't add up any more.
    With the small farmer, given that a lot of them depend as much on the wife's earnings as they do the SFP it might be that they de-stock a bit more, he gets a job as well and they just potter at the weekend
    Why sell up? They've already got the house in the country in its own grounds. If you don't have a rent to pay and can pick up enough work to pay the bills, why sell up and move into town?

    I don't know what will happen. It could be the Euro goes belly up before we can leave the EU in which case in that mess all bets are off, we might end up being part of something like the old EEC where it's just a trading area and countries subsidise their own industries within broad outlines set by treaty.

    Jim
    Jim.

    Some of us already have Landlords like that.
    We call it "the cosmetic" approach to farming & land management !



    With regards to the comments about how there are dozens of old farmers that just won't let go & are holding back the younger generation ???

    Well, I have mixed feelings about that !
    I know of one or two farming families where the old man was still the boss in to his 70's with a son in his 40's working with him. In one case the Son was more than happy with this as he enjoyed having someone to work with and bounce idea's off.
    In the other case the Son was increasingly frustrated by the fact that the old man wouldn't/couldn't let go & spent most of the time moaning. Mind you, the son in question was so far up his own Arse he had been trying to tell his old man what to do from the age of about 10 !!

    As someone who lost their father at the age of 20, I would much rather have had Dad around for a good many more years !!

  26. #86
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    SFP has no bearing on land prices. It's a pretty straight forward fact- a lot of land buyers are not farmers and would not automatically hold entitlements for any of it anyway.

    I am not sure quite what agenda is being peddled by who. Stewart, whose knowledge appears about 30 years out of date, and he believes a free market is one where a major player in it is a monopoly, or Patsy, who seems to have a serious grudge against anyone who has inherited land and so he proceeds to complain those that have are farming it badly, getting it all wrong and unable to innovate. And again, his knowledge appears 30 years out of date.

    I am not certain either of these contributors understand the sums involved when it comes to SFP. Even a 2000 acre arable farmer, whose subsidy cheque might be considered large, is hardly a subsidy junkie when his net profit when returns are good can be by anyones measure, fairly substantial. On the other hand, the guy with a 200 acre Dairy farm is not going to suddenly be viable with his SFP or not, either he is good at the bloody job or he isn't. SFP is alright but it hasn't and can't save a failing business- hence the vast numbers of people who have got out of farming actively in any great shade in the last 20 years.

    I do really wonder what industry you both speak of, as I said earlier, it is not the one I am working in.

    Anyone who thinks the SFP should go because he thinks he will be able to get his foot on the ladder is dreaming- you won't just grab hold of 200 acres and start some kind of innovative start-up. Even if it dropped rents to a degree, there will still be rent and you will still have to pay it. You will still be against larger more established businesses who again have the ability to borrow and service debt at levels greater than your own- you can see this in Somerset quite clearly when the moment land becomes available, it is snapped up by dairy farmers regardless of whether there is SFP or not involved.

    Plenty of people moan, yes. But don't kid yourself they weren't making money when milk was 35p and Corn was 180.
    Nope, I don't have a grudge. I have inherited land and will probably inherit more. My issue is more to do with the structure of farming businesses in my area and what I see as waste.

    Lets look at a case study. A neighbour owns near on 370 acres and rents a bit more. I know them very well and like them very much too. Dad is 75 or close and son does most of the work but has no say. They bag something in the region of 30k a year in SFP and other ELS / HLS schemes. Son has told me this. Despite both of them working 7 days a week with no mortgage on the land, they bring in a net profit of 15k. Now, that is wrong. They've got all the gear and lots of head around the place. This and that but no money. No actual business to speak of. Just work and loss.

    You keep telling me that my experience is not what you recognise but let me suggest that it may be for a reason. I'm guessing you are a rep or consultant? When you go to these farms you meet the boss and it's all fine and you talk all this stuff and he nods and you get your sale and you go back and do your monitoring and so on and probably achieve something. But does your customer actually know what they have bought off you or why? If you were to quizz them in depth. I may be doing some of them a huge dis-service but I think most will sell you a lie while you sell them a tub of stuff.

  27. #87
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Jim.

    Some of us already have Landlords like that.
    We call it "the cosmetic" approach to farming & land management !



    With regards to the comments about how there are dozens of old farmers that just won't let go & are holding back the younger generation ???

    Well, I have mixed feelings about that !
    I know of one or two farming families where the old man was still the boss in to his 70's with a son in his 40's working with him. In one case the Son was more than happy with this as he enjoyed having someone to work with and bounce idea's off.
    In the other case the Son was increasingly frustrated by the fact that the old man wouldn't/couldn't let go & spent most of the time moaning. Mind you, the son in question was so far up his own Arse he had been trying to tell his old man what to do from the age of about 10 !!

    As someone who lost their father at the age of 20, I would much rather have had Dad around for a good many more years !!
    It's all different. In your first case, maybe Dad is not the old codger that I know and many other would recognise if they were honest enough. In case 2, son sounds like a dick which presents Dad with a problem. In your case, sorry you lost your old man. I get on very well with mine but he's still and old git. I would rather he was here and driving me slowly insane than not though.

    As I said, I only speak as I find and accept things may be different outside my locale.

  28. #88
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    'The value of land is a just a society thing and it shouldn't be applied to general farm land etc etc...'

    Ah, but it does. City money IS buying large tractors of general farm land- for investment purposes. The monies received in SFP on these areas, would be pennies compared to the money required in capital outlay- in fact, I doubt the rental value of the land comes close to offering some kind of return on it, but it appreciates in value all the time anyway, and so it has to- you have no chance of repaying the cost through farming it alone.

    As for the EU; its already on its way to being junked.
    That's purely down to IHT / APR / Holdover though isn't it? Or is land just a current safe haven? If it's the latter then we better worry because if there is no substance to the current value, when the trousers are all pulled down, land is done for. Never under-estimate the stupidity of an investment manager. They mostly work on past data and hope for the best. I know a good few. Earn loads more than me though so what can you say? Guess I'm the stupid one.

  29. #89
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Nope, I don't have a grudge. I have inherited land and will probably inherit more. My issue is more to do with the structure of farming businesses in my area and what I see as waste.

    Lets look at a case study. A neighbour owns near on 370 acres and rents a bit more. I know them very well and like them very much too. Dad is 75 or close and son does most of the work but has no say. They bag something in the region of 30k a year in SFP and other ELS / HLS schemes. Son has told me this. Despite both of them working 7 days a week with no mortgage on the land, they bring in a net profit of 15k. Now, that is wrong. They've got all the gear and lots of head around the place. This and that but no money. No actual business to speak of. Just work and loss.

    You keep telling me that my experience is not what you recognise but let me suggest that it may be for a reason. I'm guessing you are a rep or consultant? When you go to these farms you meet the boss and it's all fine and you talk all this stuff and he nods and you get your sale and you go back and do your monitoring and so on and probably achieve something. But does your customer actually know what they have bought off you or why? If you were to quizz them in depth. I may be doing some of them a huge dis-service but I think most will sell you a lie while you sell them a tub of stuff.
    You have a very downcast view of farmers, I'll say that. Your case study is just an example. What kind of system or operation a business has is open to debate. There are a myriad of ways of doing things and there is no right answer, but you are wholly wrong to suggest they are wasting their time on account of what profit they may or may not make in one particular year. Sometimes prices are good, the weather is perfect and they strike it lucky with various factors or results. Other years you don't get any of it right.

    Most of the people I speak to daily, whether current customers or not, know full well what is being used and why. This is not some magic mystery stuff, most farmers have grown grass, corn or maize or whatever for longer than I have been about and know full well that various tools come out of the box at various times as and when they are needed. Some take a lot more interest than others, some walk their crops with me, others don't have the time. This is not like selling a used car, I'm not into transactional selling and in fact the hard sell is not my style and never will be. All I do is turn up and help people achieve what they want to achieve, and tell them what I can and can't do for them. If I am selling anything I would say the biggest thing is my enthusiasm.

    You have a very peculiar view of farming and production agriculture, and an unmissable bias towards some kind of latte sipping guardian reader mentality that no one in with farming in their veins would ever adopt. You are keen on basically rubbishing the entire food chain up and down from the the lofy heights of your sustainably sourced organic bamboo Orangotan friendly rocking chair. The question then, is if is such a target for ridicule and scorn, why devote so much energy and time to it? I mean I don't like football, never have, as a result, I don't play it or watch it, or funnily enough post on a forum aimed at football related content?

    I don't know what part of the country you reside in or what kind of folk you may have met on your farming travels, but having spoken to rather a lot of farmers of all kinds in the last few years, I can tell you, the current crop of farmers in my area, are not fools. They are businessmen and are still in business purely because they, through necessity, have become professionals at it. Some have made modest profits, some have made enough profit to reinvest, others have made scarcely believable profits. And all this whilst farming within the legislative framework required or becoming environmental rapists. On that account alone, just who exactly are you to be so critical of the industry in such obliquely generalised terms I'm surprised you haven't raised a lot more heckles here to be perfectly honest.

  30. #90
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    Re: Farm subsidies if EU pullout

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    You have a very peculiar view of farming and production agriculture, and an unmissable bias towards some kind of latte sipping guardian reader mentality that no one in with farming in their veins would ever adopt. You are keen on basically rubbishing the entire food chain up and down from the the lofy heights of your sustainably sourced organic bamboo Orangotan friendly rocking chair. The question then, is if is such a target for ridicule and scorn, why devote so much energy and time to it? I mean I don't like football, never have, as a result, I don't play it or watch it, or funnily enough post on a forum aimed at football related content?

    I don't know what part of the country you reside in or what kind of folk you may have met on your farming travels, but having spoken to rather a lot of farmers of all kinds in the last few years, I can tell you, the current crop of farmers in my area, are not fools. They are businessmen and are still in business purely because they, through necessity, have become professionals at it. Some have made modest profits, some have made enough profit to reinvest, others have made scarcely believable profits. And all this whilst farming within the legislative framework required or becoming environmental rapists. On that account alone, just who exactly are you to be so critical of the industry in such obliquely generalised terms I'm surprised you haven't raised a lot more heckles here to be perfectly honest.
    I'm not doing as you say, I keep saying I speak as I find around me, in my circle of friends and contacts and the truth is it worries me what will happen to those families if the safety net is removed. Maybe I'm unlucky in where I live. I have already said I have not travelled and met or spoken to many farmers outside of my immediate area, I have already accepted that. I have already said I know some farmers who are making a good job of it. I am not making industry generalisations, I am speaking about people I know. If you know those people better than me, then that's fine. The other insults you continue to hurl at me are boring now so I will ignore those. You don't seem to be able to help yourself on that front.

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