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Thread: Daughter wins share of farm

  1. #1
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
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    Daughter wins share of farm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-31628757 Not a very nice state of affairs .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    So she didn't really get a win then, as the award seems about a third of the valuation?

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    seems a very sad story
    without knowing more, very difficult to comment
    for certain the media will not have the full story
    I suspect the biggest winners by far will be the solicitors
    Ixworth Solar Farming Ltd.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    And when solicitors get involved, the usual outcome is a good farm gets wrecked.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    It does seem a very sad state of affairs. From what i've read elsewhere it sounds like a progressive and profitable farm. It's difficult as we don't know all the facts and there are always two sides, and so forth, but really, there are no winners here. Even if the parents were given leave to appeal and this appeal was successful, it's still all going to end in a farm sale whatever. The daughter may eventually get the money, but i can't help but think she'd be better off if she was still running the farm business for herself even if she did only have a 3rd share in the actual land.

    People can have very funny ideas about things like this, perhaps an inability to face up to the inevitability of one's own mortality has something to do with it. Then again some people are just very selfish, i've seen that myself with some neighbours who were treated as slaves by their father. now he's died and they're in their 50's milking 40 cows in a tie up shed and drawing 14p a liter from first milk. I think the milk cheque amounts to 60 a day and they spend 30 on corn, but it's as if because they were never allowed to make a decision when their father was alive they can't make one now. I'd say their property is worth,at a conservative estimate, 3 million.

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    Senior Member Raggy's Avatar
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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    And when solicitors get involved, the usual outcome is a good farm gets wrecked.
    So the solicitor is the real winner. As always!
    Looking out for the next holiday.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    I once was appointed Administrator to an estate of a relative who had died intestate. When that happens, and consequently there are obviously no Executors, family members appoint Administrators. It came to the day of the sale of live & deadstock and by this time various far-flung, long-lost relatives had suddenly decided that they should take an interest in the affairs of the estate of the deceased. So much so that one of them came up to me, on the day of the sale, and asked when we would be making a distribution. Being a nephew, and the deceased not having any issue, he knew he was in for a legacy and had actually ordered a new car on the strength of it.

    And when we were wrapping up after the sale I, my fellow Administrator, the auctioneer and his sceretary, all retired to the house for a cuppa and a bit of cake. I was telling the auctioneer about the people who had suddenly started crawlilng out of the woodwork and he said something to me that I will never forget.

    You have to realise that this auctioneer was a bit of a character, was very good at what he did, and was always very busy. And he turned round to me and said "my lad, you must always remember one thing. Blood is thicker than water, but money thins it down"

    RIP Charlie Phillips.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    With not having all the facts but from the article I see no reason why she should get what's due to her , the farm prospered on the fact that she had little or no wage . Most business would do well if employees were paid f all

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post

    People can have very funny ideas about things like this, perhaps an inability to face up to the inevitability of one's own mortality has something to do with it. Then again some people are just very selfish, i've seen that myself with some neighbours who were treated as slaves by their father. now he's died and they're in their 50's milking 40 cows in a tie up shed and drawing 14p a liter from first milk. I think the milk cheque amounts to 60 a day and they spend 30 on corn, but it's as if because they were never allowed to make a decision when their father was alive they can't make one now. I'd say their property is worth,at a conservative estimate, 3 million.
    I see this state of affairs round me not with dairy as there is non here now !

    The farther won't retire and won't let the "son" 40/50 year old make a decision ! Ok the farther dies then the "son" is in charge but just dose things like dad used to .
    Often in cases like this the farther was a strong personality and didn't like change so the son is farmig in the past

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    A farmer I once knew told me about his father's will reading. The background was there were 6 kids - 3 sons, 3 daughters. As they grew up and made their ways into the world, the oldest two boys managed to get tenancies on decent farms and were doing ok, the 3 daughters all married men who weren't involved in agriculture. The youngest son had stayed at home and worked all the hours God sent for very little pay.
    When the father died (the mother had passed some years previously), it was assumed by all 6 that it would be an even split of the farm and assets. The older two brothers (the oldest being the farmer I knew) decided the right thing to do would be to forego their shares in favour of their youngest brother, and to help him pay out the 3 sister, seeing as he had worked to keep the family farm in top order.
    The man telling me this story said his last words to his wife as he left for the solicitor's office were "I hope this doesn't cost me too much....."
    He returned a few hours later with a big grin on his face. When pressed by his wife he told her "The will was quite straightforward. Dave has been left the farm and all its assets as reward for his hard work and loyalty. The money in father's bank account is to split, two thirds for me, one third for John. Father also believed that all 3 of my sisters have married well and their husbands are all capable of looking after them more than adequately!"
    Once the laughter had died down, his wife asked "So how much have you been left, then?" With an even bigger smile on his face, he said "I got a tenner and John got a fiver!!!"

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Dug View Post
    A farmer I once knew told me about his father's will reading. The background was there were 6 kids - 3 sons, 3 daughters. As they grew up and made their ways into the world, the oldest two boys managed to get tenancies on decent farms and were doing ok, the 3 daughters all married men who weren't involved in agriculture. The youngest son had stayed at home and worked all the hours God sent for very little pay.
    When the father died (the mother had passed some years previously), it was assumed by all 6 that it would be an even split of the farm and assets. The older two brothers (the oldest being the farmer I knew) decided the right thing to do would be to forego their shares in favour of their youngest brother, and to help him pay out the 3 sister, seeing as he had worked to keep the family farm in top order.
    The man telling me this story said his last words to his wife as he left for the solicitor's office were "I hope this doesn't cost me too much....."
    He returned a few hours later with a big grin on his face. When pressed by his wife he told her "The will was quite straightforward. Dave has been left the farm and all its assets as reward for his hard work and loyalty. The money in father's bank account is to split, two thirds for me, one third for John. Father also believed that all 3 of my sisters have married well and their husbands are all capable of looking after them more than adequately!"
    Once the laughter had died down, his wife asked "So how much have you been left, then?" With an even bigger smile on his face, he said "I got a tenner and John got a fiver!!!"
    Brilliant!!

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoaktree View Post
    I see this state of affairs round me not with dairy as there is non here now !

    The farther won't retire and won't let the "son" 40/50 year old make a decision ! Ok the farther dies then the "son" is in charge but just dose things like dad used to .
    Often in cases like this the farther was a strong personality and didn't like change so the son is farmig in the past
    Jesus,

    this is true of many of my friends/ and people who farm in my area and even an extent our family,

    If you work with your parents on the farm you have to go get a job else where for them to realise they do (or dont!) need you on the farm this puts you in a much stronger position to negotiate about your contribution and reward, those of us who have not are as you describe above, its still happening around me now!

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Happens everywhere. Why are old farmers usually such domineering gits? Everything has to be done just as they say until the day they turn up their toes. Very bad for business and very bad for the next generation who have no experience of making their own mistakes and therefore just follow on from Father and probably do the same to their kids, having waiting a lifetime to actually be in charge.

    I now legally own our little farm but out of respect for Dad and for the sake of good relations, things usually get done his way. As time goes on this has to change. It's either going to be a gentle transition or a huge blow up, I'm not sure which yet. Hopefully the former.

    I don't want to find myself waiting for him to die so I can get on with what I want to do. That is tragic. I suspect all too common though.

    On the flip side, I expect there are a good number of forward thinking farmers who are actively planning succession and allowing their children to find their way and make their own mistakes. I don't know many though.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Have to balance this out a bit. I am one of the fortunate ones I suppose, and I do really feel for those whose folks have made it more difficult than it needed to be.

    When I came back from Uni, I began work straight away. Working away was a luxury I could not afford, as Dad was keeping nearly 200 cows warm until I was finished study. There was no actual pressure from him to come home, but I knew that if I didn't, he was not prepared to continue milking with purely hired labour. Come January, Dad said, 'We're booked in to see the accountant tomorrow, and you should be there.' In we went, and in the discussion, Dad put it to the accountant that he should look at taking whatever details he needed to put me in the partnership with he and Mum. I imagine there was a tax benefit which he was considering (probably at the top of the list of reasons), but he also viewed putting meaning and responsibility into it as a good thing for me. Working to make profit, and turning up to generate and hourly wage are poles apart in terms of motivation. One of the things the accountant suggested should be done was putting my name on the current account. No problem, he said. He trusted me completely. Theres nothing to make real the cost of something like when you have to write the figure and put your name on it, and watch it leave your account.

    Things just progressed as you would expect. I made a lot of mistakes (still make them!). He did his best to keep me right though. We did things in relative harmony. I can't recall ever having a major disagreement about any decision that had to be made. Make no mistake, Dad put his views without reserve. And I told him what I thought. If there was something major he didnt approve of, I took it to be my place to take him very seriously, because I knew he was never one to stand in the way of progress. He after all was the one with nearly five decades of full time farming experience in an age when he drove farming forward from horses to modern outputs. He let me alter course on plenty of things. In fact, he enjoyed the injection of imagination from the youngster. It wasn't all sweetness and roses of course. I found his criticism of my errors (mainly livestock) very harsh. He was cross with me, and I was cross with him for being almost inhumane in his scorn. An employee almost certainly would have walked out on him, yet at the back of it I knew why he was doing it. It was made clear to me from the beginning that the farm could only work if I made it work, that mistakes and bluffs on my part would only hurt me.

    Fourteen years on, and we still get on the best. He still gives it out rough now and again, and I probably don't respond in the most gentlemanly manner either. Ten minutes later we'll be smirking at one another. He still keeps his hand in with the calves etc, running errands, buckraking grass, making drains, shifting cattle, spreading slurry, and any other random thing we might be doing. But mum aint so fit these days, and he just disappears without warning when she needs to be driven to town. The burden of the enterprise has transferred inconspicuously to me over a period of years - I was barely even aware it was happening. Looking back, it was very considerable trust to place in me, a relative greenhorn. But I would rather have died than betray that trust.

    He makes his own time, and does with it what he loves, which is farming (without the bureaucracy). At 77, thats his idea of retirement. Top Guy.
    Last edited by DairyFarmer111; 02-03-15 at 09:49 PM.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Dairyfarmer111.

    that is a fantastic post,, there's more than one bosses lad who needs to be more like you, the comment about being a name on the current account is very true I feel, it's easy to badger for say a new quad bike, feeders, or pretty much any thing, and to just go into the local AG suppliers and just "wack it on the farm account,," When it's your money disappearing from account you think twice before spending it,,, and you take a lot care of what ever item you've bought,,
    Big Vern..... Stay low Move faster

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Dairyfarmer111

    Thank you indeed for that potted family succession history, warts and all. I'll just make this comment. You know of course that you have been very fortunate. But so also has your Father. Good luck to both of you.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    A nice story and it seems a successful and mostly harmonious transition. That's the way it should be and it's never going to be easy and without the odd blow up. Business is business so you can't expect it to be all rosy every day.

    I'm trying to achieve the same thing with my old man but he's not playing. He's kind of signed it all over legally and I am now the 'farmer' but if anything, it's given him a new lease of life. I now need to double bluff him. If I want to start the fence at the top of the field I'll tell him we should start at the bottom...........

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Being devils advocate - I've seen a few farms where it's probably a damn good thing that the 'Old Man' is stopping the young lad from spending every penny and borrowing up to his neck...

    Sometimes worth gabbing hold of a few of those old words of wisdom!

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    There is a saying.

    First generation make it.
    The second generation preserve it .
    The third generation spend it.

    Not always true but often is.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    There is a saying.

    First generation make it.
    The second generation preserve it .
    The third generation spend it.

    Not always true but often is.
    I'm the 5th generation, the ones above me have already lost most of the farm so that's done. I'm far less likely to spend money than the old man. He always had to have the first this or the first that.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    One of the big problems of succession and passing on the farm to the family is the way the structure of agriculture has developed. The amount of capital needed, economic scale of business has really created problems. No matter how many there are in a family, usually the business structure is that of a sole proprietor. That is how it develops. When the time comes for change, death retirement, you name it, then the difficulties arise. Any reduction in the capital or scale immediately affects the economics of the business. Most do not generate sufficient cash profit anyway. That sole trader, with todays printing of money gets wealthier and wealthier, but there is no cash. It all has to be ploughed back to keep the business remotely stable.
    I am an old git, very old, I do not know how long I have to live to develop enough wisdom to do the right thing, but it has to be a lot more years yet!!!!

    Jack Caley

    PS EDIT
    My father started farming in partnership with his brother with 100 in capital, in those days also sometimes you take a tenancy 2 years rent free.
    In our business the only decisions I seem to take now are when is the next visit to the toilet!!
    Last edited by Jack_Caley; 03-03-15 at 10:26 AM. Reason: ADDITION

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    I am third generation and I find spending it is great fun.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    A nice story and it seems a successful and mostly harmonious transition. That's the way it should be and it's never going to be easy and without the odd blow up. Business is business so you can't expect it to be all rosy every day.

    I'm trying to achieve the same thing with my old man but he's not playing. He's kind of signed it all over legally and I am now the 'farmer' but if anything, it's given him a new lease of life. I now need to double bluff him. If I want to start the fence at the top of the field I'll tell him we should start at the bottom...........
    Ha ha im in a not dissimilar position to you (both economically and working with my dad, the fencing thing sound so similar! )

    My biggest gripe is shaking things up so it run like a proper business where every cost is accountable, and everything is efficient as possible instead of 'thats the way we have always done it', Unfortunately there's lots of old farmers aroudn here who indeed seem to run things in this old fashioned way but they only support them selves so i guess it works for them!

    I am making some major head room and to be fair we all see the benefit which enables more progress, again this is another reason why working else where i.e other businesses before working of the farm give you a good experience to bring to the farming environment.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    There is a saying.

    First generation make it.
    The second generation preserve it .
    The third generation spend it.

    Not always true but often is.
    and the forth generation live in poverty, the younger generation need to understand the blood sweat and tears of theirs peers

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    and the forth generation live in poverty, the younger generation need to understand the blood sweat and tears of theirs peers
    My son (being the fourth generation) earns a shedload more than I do!
    Hardly living in poverty and I don't really want him to have to shed the blood sweat and tears that I did.

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    Re: Daughter wins share of farm

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvis View Post
    My son (being the fourth generation) earns a shedload more than I do!
    Hardly living in poverty and I don't really want him to have to shed the blood sweat and tears that I did.
    you have nothing to worry about then as your son is sucessful but we all have anicdotes of farms going south

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