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Thread: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

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    Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic


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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    For a while the EU have been toying with the idea of banning conventional & organic on the same farm which seems a reasonable idea.Also all livestock feed produced on the farm, not so clever IMO. I do wish the EU would stop meddling though...........

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    Senior Member matthew's Avatar
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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    It's a load of guff. The EU have NOT said this at all.

    Don't believe all you read in cut / paste newspapers. Even if it is 'written' by the science correspondent - or possibly especially if ....

    De-struct and the real rules are here:

    http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85546

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    There you go then. As we knew anyway, precious little difference on that front with conventional production, barring the fairly minor detail of double withdrawal time (if producers choose to heed it from day to day). The bit that irritates me the most is watching organic farmers carting in and stock piling neighbouring conventional turkey and hen litter for early new year spreading, only to claim that their pasture grows 'naturally'.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    It's a load of guff. The EU have NOT said this at all.

    Don't believe all you read in cut / paste newspapers. Even if it is 'written' by the science correspondent - or possibly especially if ....

    De-struct and the real rules are here:

    http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85546
    On the contrary, the above link, written by Richard North who I thought would have been more sensible, actually confirms
    what the opening post said: the EU are actually and unbelievably encouraging the charlatan organic brigade to attempt
    to use black magic to treat sick animals in preference to conventional treatment. And only if black magic fails to work
    should these animals be treated conventionally - if they're still alive presumably

    And as I've said many times before, my single farm payment is reduced to subsidise this nonsense. And just as annoying, our taxes
    are used to pay for these imbecile regulators in Brussels.

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    Senior Member matthew's Avatar
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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    On the contrary, the above link, written by Richard North who I thought would have been more sensible, actually confirms
    what the opening post said: the EU are actually and unbelievably encouraging the charlatan organic brigade to attempt
    to use black magic to treat sick animals in preference to conventional treatment. And only if black magic fails to work
    should these animals be treated conventionally - if they're still alive presumably

    And as I've said many times before, my single farm payment is reduced to subsidise this nonsense. And just as annoying, our taxes
    are used to pay for these imbecile regulators in Brussels.

    I think what North is getting at, is that rules concerning these treatments have been around for decades; these treatments were available to organic farmers since 1999, updated 2007 / 2008, but never compulsory. The wording is crucial and they were updated again last year. This is made plain in his final quote from EU regs (March 2014) :

    "disease shall be treated immediately to avoid suffering to the animal; chemically synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products including antibiotics may be used where necessary, under strict conditions and under the responsibility of a veterinarian, when the use of phytotherapeutic, homeopathic and other products is inappropriate. "

    That, to me, is not 'compulsory use of', in fact just the opposite. But media headlines don't do detail and that is the point.

    I agree with your last para.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    when the use of phytotherapeutic, homeopathic and other products is inappropriate. "
    Can anyone explain when the above IS appropriate
    There are more engines killed through lack of water than through lack of oil

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Courier View Post
    Can anyone explain when the above IS appropriate
    Whenever it is claimed that "Organic" means that the product is produced Organically without the use of any Modern Chemicals at all.
    The use of Medicines on a welfare basis drive a coach and horses through any Organic claim.
    One way or the other, not the route that suits on a certain day!

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    It may be that cows fed a high-iodine mineral supplement have higher levels of iodine in their milk.

    Nothing to do with being organic per se, but organic (is there a 'spitting' logo?) farmers are maybe less likely to feed minerals.

    I suppose even the organic cranks can't claim to have an organic mineral supplement.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    I suppose even the organic cranks can't claim to have an organic mineral supplement.

    ha! there's certain versions of minerals you're not allowed... can't remember which ones though.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    chelated minerals are not allowed. Naturally derived mineral (as in ground up compounds that have been dug out of the ground) are fine.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    As a member of the organic brigade/ charlatan/organic crank/ grouping or more loosely the HMA (Hedge Monkey Association) I use copper cobalt selenium Iodine boluses in my dairy cows - they get two boluses (boli?) at drying off.

    We do this as we have demonstrated a shortage of the above minerals in our cows ration-or in the case of iodine we concluded that the cows would benefit from supplementation.

    Broad brush and badly done bits of journalism grabbing part of the outcome of this research is lazy and unhelpful. At no point has it been shown that a conventional milk consuming mother to be has higher iodine levels in her blood, nor a mother 2 be who consumes HMA dairy products has a lower iodine level in her blood..the research simply states that conv milk has higher levels of iodine in it... so big deal... flipping journos....

    Oh and stop being so horrid to us hedgemonkeys.. we are just trying to make a living!

    Right i'm off to stroke my beard and clean my sandals...

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    Senior Member matthew's Avatar
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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForegoneConclusionII View Post
    As a member of the organic brigade/ charlatan/organic crank/ grouping or more loosely the HMA (Hedge Monkey Association) I use copper cobalt selenium Iodine boluses in my dairy cows - they get two boluses (boli?) at drying off.

    We do this as we have demonstrated a shortage of the above minerals in our cows ration-or in the case of iodine we concluded that the cows would benefit from supplementation.

    Broad brush and badly done bits of journalism grabbing part of the outcome of this research is lazy and unhelpful. At no point has it been shown that a conventional milk consuming mother to be has higher iodine levels in her blood, nor a mother 2 be who consumes HMA dairy products has a lower iodine level in her blood..the research simply states that conv milk has higher levels of iodine in it... so big deal... flipping journos....

    Oh and stop being so horrid to us hedgemonkeys.. we are just trying to make a living!

    Right i'm off to stroke my beard and clean my sandals...
    ... and knit your yoghurt?

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    I guess the reality is that the majority of Organic Farmers are using Forage from un-policed sources ("yeah mate the hay is organic") and in other cases manure from non organic sources - like above....

    Does this really matter????? I don't think so

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    It may be that cows fed a high-iodine mineral supplement have higher levels of iodine in their milk.

    Nothing to do with being organic per se, but organic (is there a 'spitting' logo?) farmers are maybe less likely to feed minerals.

    I suppose even the organic cranks can't claim to have an organic mineral supplement.
    Or, it may be that organic milk contains less iodine because the cows will have a much higher intake of buttercups, daisies and creeping thistle.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Im so pleased i spent a bit of time knitting my yoghurt.., good idea!!!! I was also reminded that i should be knitting my lentils too on another forum... I now have a fine pair of socks made from fully organic, ethically sourced, sustainable, iodine free, un-policed, fed on creeping thistle socks... I will be presenting them to Waitrose and Abel and Cole next week...

    I think it is a bit hasty asserting that the majority of organic farmers use forage from un policed sources.....

    All forage bought in must be accompanied by an organic certificate, this cannot be faked.

    Here's a radical thought.. can we HMAs and non HMAs agree that we each do a different thing for different parts of the market and we should ALL get together and promote british food to the fickle uk consumer over the heads of the supermarkets so be both have a future and maybe learn a few things from each other at the same time.. or as Adam Henson said at a do I attended in Carmarthen a few days back Promote Brand UK....


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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForegoneConclusionII View Post
    Im so pleased i spent a bit of time knitting my yoghurt.., good idea!!!! I was also reminded that i should be knitting my lentils too on another forum... I now have a fine pair of socks made from fully organic, ethically sourced, sustainable, iodine free, un-policed, fed on creeping thistle socks... I will be presenting them to Waitrose and Abel and Cole next week...

    I think it is a bit hasty asserting that the majority of organic farmers use forage from un policed sources.....

    All forage bought in must be accompanied by an organic certificate, this cannot be faked.

    Here's a radical thought.. can we HMAs and non HMAs agree that we each do a different thing for different parts of the market and we should ALL get together and promote british food to the fickle uk consumer over the heads of the supermarkets so be both have a future and maybe learn a few things from each other at the same time.. or as Adam Henson said at a do I attended in Carmarthen a few days back Promote Brand UK....

    Or even "Brand Henson"

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    On the contrary, the above link, written by Richard North who I thought would have been more sensible, actually confirms
    what the opening post said: the EU are actually and unbelievably encouraging the charlatan organic brigade to attempt
    to use black magic to treat sick animals in preference to conventional treatment. And only if black magic fails to work
    should these animals be treated conventionally - if they're still alive presumably

    And as I've said many times before, my single farm payment is reduced to subsidise this nonsense. And just as annoying, our taxes
    are used to pay for these imbecile regulators in Brussels.
    fortunately there is a word in the english language that provides an appropriate response to this comment and that word is 'diddums'.

    Basically, some farmers have found a system of farming that both works for them and enables them to add value to their produce, but, rather than learn from this example you'd rather whine on about how you've had a bit shaved off your farming dole payment. This pretty much sums up what is wrong with british agriculture.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    On the contrary, the above link, written by Richard North who I thought would have been more sensible, actually confirms
    what the opening post said: the EU are actually and unbelievably encouraging the charlatan organic brigade to attempt
    to use black magic to treat sick animals in preference to conventional treatment. And only if black magic fails to work
    should these animals be treated conventionally - if they're still alive presumably

    And as I've said many times before, my single farm payment is reduced to subsidise this nonsense. And just as annoying, our taxes
    are used to pay for these imbecile regulators in Brussels.
    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    fortunately there is a word in the english language that provides an appropriate response to this comment and that word is 'diddums'.

    Basically, some farmers have found a system of farming that both works for them and enables them to add value to their produce, but, rather than learn from this example you'd rather whine on about how you've had a bit shaved off your farming dole payment. This pretty much sums up what is wrong with british agriculture.
    What I should have said is that my single farm payment is modulated to subsidise (A) weed growing, (B) fuel, land, machinery and seed waste, (C) mis-treatment of livestock and (D) claims that somehow organic farming and organic food is superior.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    What I should have said is that my single farm payment is modulated to subsidise (A) weed growing, (B) fuel, land, machinery and seed waste, (C) mis-treatment of livestock and (D) claims that somehow organic farming and organic food is superior.
    If only you'd had that bit extra you could buy some vinegar to go on that massive chip you have on your shoulder there.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForegoneConclusionII View Post
    I think it is a bit hasty asserting that the majority of organic farmers use forage from un policed sources.....

    All forage bought in must be accompanied by an organic certificate, this cannot be faked.
    A local organic farmer regularly passes here with his tractor and trailer fetching stock feed spuds, i guess they must be organic spuds then.

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Know of one who runs a busy little sideline emptying Septic Tanks........guess all of his clients must be organic consumers!

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    What I should have said is that my single farm payment is modulated to subsidise (A) weed growing, (B) fuel, land, machinery and seed waste, (C) mis-treatment of livestock and (D) claims that somehow organic farming and organic food is superior.
    Whilst everyone else would say that my income is modulated by the taxman to pay for SFP that landowners collect to falsely raise the value of land and buy new range rovers with!

    Get over it and farm on---the organic farm sector is a great success story excelling in the one place many farmers fail-----marketing. Whinging/jealously doesn't help anyone and just makes you look like a spoilt brat

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    Whilst everyone else would say that my income is modulated by the taxman to pay for SFP that landowners collect to falsely raise the value of land and buy new range rovers with!

    Get over it and farm on---the organic farm sector is a great success story excelling in the one place many farmers fail-----marketing. Whinging/jealously doesn't help anyone and just makes you look like a spoilt brat
    Stop using chemicals in and on your animals!
    How about you are allowed to use the same as the rest of us....but any thing treated is booted out of the scheme and is not allowed to be sold as Organic. EVER,

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Stop using chemicals in and on your animals!
    How about you are allowed to use the same as the rest of us....but any thing treated is booted out of the scheme and is not allowed to be sold as Organic. EVER,
    Why would an organic farmer want to stop having antibiotics or anthelmintics as a useful tool? Counter productive and bad for animal welfare

    The point is that a sector of the farming community have done a good job of selling their produce ---i suggest it is a lesson that many of us could benefit from rather than just whinging?

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    Why would an organic farmer want to stop having antibiotics or anthelmintics as a useful tool? Counter productive and bad for animal welfare

    The point is that a sector of the farming community have done a good job of selling their produce ---i suggest it is a lesson that many of us could benefit from rather than just whinging?
    Errrr because you claim to be Organic...."Muck and Magic" then Blithley drive a coach and horses through it via a set of rules devised by yourselves to suit your selves to the detriment of others, who by and large are castigated as the Devil incarnate (of which you are doing a pretty good job at the moment).

    gee

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Errrr because you claim to be Organic...."Muck and Magic" then Blithley drive a coach and horses through it via a set of rules devised by yourselves to suit your selves to the detriment of others, who by and large are castigated as the Devil incarnate (of which you are doing a pretty good job at the moment).

    gee
    True Gee ----organic farmers abide by a set of regulations that are available for all to see and they try to make responsible/limited use of antibiotics etc if they need them (rather than routine use )

    I don't think that organic farmers in general castigate others for using pesticides/herbicides etc (although some zealots will) The organic movement has produced a set of standards to farm by and use them to market and brand their product ---good for them. The Pasture Fed boys are doing the same & making progress---good luck
    . West country lamb is starting to become a label and may provide a small premium in time just like scotch beef and welsh lamb do---again good luck and well done

    For the record I have organic and conventional enterprises and have learnt large amounts from both sectors

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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Errrr because you claim to be Organic...."Muck and Magic" then Blithley drive a coach and horses through it via a set of rules devised by yourselves to suit your selves to the detriment of others, who by and large are castigated as the Devil incarnate (of which you are doing a pretty good job at the moment).

    gee
    I think you need to familiarise yourself with what organics actually is, not the version of organics that exists only inside your imagination.

    There's a supreme irony in those who whine on endlessly about how organic farmers slag off conventional, something i've never seen any of the numerous organic farmers who post here do, only for the complainers then go on to slag off organics based on their own ill informed prejudices and petty jealousies.

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    Senior Member b slicker's Avatar
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    Re: Organic facing up to the reality of being Organic

    If organic farmers chose to make far more responsible use of land, machinery and fuel in growing crops and chose to make their own decisions on how to use modern methods for preventing and treating animal diseases, and chose to make sensible use of fertilisers, fungicides and hormone weed killers, they would be able to produce the same output from between 50% and 60% of their land.

    The rest of their land could then be given over to nature. I would haver complete respect for that way of farming, provided injurious weeds and vermin are controlled.

    And Tim, tell us where you live in relation to the land you farm. And what geographic area your stock is spread over and how often you see your stock.

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