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Thread: docks and pastor

  1. #1
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    docks and pastor

    been weedwiping docks with pastor, first time didn't seem to do much damage, so tried another field but with a stronger solution, and a few passes twice in opposite direction, still not really seeing much difference after 10 days. Wondering if doxstar would be more effective? any thoughts please?

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by aled1590 View Post
    been weedwiping docks with pastor, first time didn't seem to do much damage, so tried another field but with a stronger solution, and a few passes twice in opposite direction, still not really seeing much difference after 10 days. Wondering if doxstar would be more effective? any thoughts please?
    what stage are the docks at? sounds like they are too strong

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Glysophate is the best for docks by far and a lot cheaper,but grazon or thislex is much better for creeping thistles, never tried pastor but when spraying with pastor it seems to need the full beans as half rate never seems to much despite what it says on the label. Cheap enough to go again with Glysophate IMO, if you have the time, it will kill at any stage but not the seeds.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Read the label!
    Early stages of growth is essential for success, by the time docks are high enough to catch with a wiper it will be too late.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Weedwiping docks is only an alternative to topping them in my opinion, too many escape underneath the weedwiper ,or recover. You can however knock them back hard and make the field look better for a year, but far too many still seed so they will be back. Why on earth do I carry on doing it ?? Good question, to which I donít have a good answer, apart from preserving the clover.
    I use Headland Relay 2 litres in 25 litres which will treat 15 -20 acres. ( not licenced, (16.5% w/w) mecoprop-p, (16.5% w/w) MCPA and (2.0% w/w) dicamba)

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    Re: docks and pastor

    If they are bad there is no other real option if you want success than probably two applications and accepting that you will no longer have any clover.......not easy if it is permanent pasture.....other problem is that optimum application time is early in the season when you will be hard pressed for grazing as it is, without shutting up a field. With a follow up spray at the same growth stage later in the season.
    Do sheep spread Dock seeds from the unsprayed hedge bottoms, perimeters of the field, over the entire field in certain weather conditions?
    Often wonder if that is the reason for a sudden infestation over an entire field.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Why the heck would you weed wipe with Pastor? Who told you to do that? As stated above, by the time the docks have grown a stem upwards they won't be controlled much at all sensibly by any contact chemistry.

    You would be better off applying pastor or doxstar later once you have topped them.

    Or save until next year and hit them after first cut.

    If your field is that diggered then you can either hit them with pinnacle and spruce or else sacrifice the clover and do the job properly.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    If your going to use Pastor - I think you need to spray when you have the initial lettuce like leafy stage of the dock...


    Top them, wait for the rosette/leafiness then spot spray would be better than weed wiping...


    P.s. Check with an expert first though when using chemicals!

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Other options are to spray with Mecoprop in line with label recommendations, or to graze heavily with sheep.

    I once saw an impressive crop of Typhon at Hillsborough Research Institute, Northern Ireland. On closer inspection
    it turned out to be a field covered in Docks.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    When you only have a scattered few, is it reasonable to consider spot weeding with glyphosate?
    Obviously you'll kill a bit of grass but will that colonise with grass or with dock seedlings.
    It could be highly effective and cheap if spot weeding anyway.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    When you only have a scattered few, is it reasonable to consider spot weeding with glyphosate?
    Obviously you'll kill a bit of grass but will that colonise with grass or with dock seedlings.
    It could be highly effective and cheap if spot weeding anyway.
    Or use one of these http://www.microngroup.com/shop/product/30 .Always wipe docks underneath, it will absorb it more affectively.


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    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Okie dokie, where to start?

    First up, I wouldn't use pastor in a weed wiper. I am not even sure it is licensed for application of that kind, even so, it is hideously expensive and won't work as well as glyphosate which translocates far more readily.

    Next, using anything other than GrazonPro (plus a handful of similar products) in a knapsack is illegal as few other products are registered for knapsack use- Relay P certainly is not.

    Mecoprop-P is also no longer registered for using on grassland (except amenity or seed crops) so using that is also illegal (except where it is included in mixtures but they are in the process of being revoked anyway).

    So, if you want to remain legal and not risk your SFP then read on.

    To answer the questions. Yes you can use glyphosate for spot treatment of docks, it will kill them provided you have enough leaf and they are growing. Obviously it will punch neat holes in your grass and the first thing to grow there will be probably be weed grasses, but the docks will be gone.

    If you have a good crop of grandad docks which have been there some time and have roots like carrots you do need to be hitting them in good growy conditions and when they have plenty of leaf- if the largest ones have the leaf area of an A4 sheet of paper you're probably bang on.

    They will probably require two treatments. How you choose to apply pastor, whether at 2 litres or 4 is up to you. I've had good results from it and doxstar at the half rate.

    Make sure your spray man gets good coverage and doesn't skimp on water. After spraying leave the sward well alone, ideally 2 weeks.

    For leys including clover you either kiss good bye to the clover or you are stuck with squire ultra or pinnacle and spruce. Neither option is cheap and they aren't as potent as the clover unsafe alternatives.

    As I have consistently said, you must take the weeds out of new leys when they are young. It is cheaper, easier and the grass will take up all the space which would otherwise be home to the broad leaved weeds.

    Lastly, when reseeding make sure you apply 1500g/ha of glyphosate when destroying old pasture.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    So are any sprays licensed for weedwipers ?

    What training / certificate do I need for a weedwiper ?( local trainers can't or wont tell me )

    Are the rules clear cut for weedwipers?

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerP View Post
    So are any sprays licensed for weedwipers ?

    What training / certificate do I need for a weedwiper ?( local trainers can't or wont tell me )

    Are the rules clear cut for weedwipers?
    Rules for weedwipers are clear, unless a product label specifies the type of equipment you plan on using and states that this product can be used be used in it then you cant "legally" use that product in that machine. Lots of products say "not suitable for use in handheld lance" so you cant use them in a a knapsack. The same thing goes for weedwipers, most but not all glyphosates are allowed to be used in weedwipers, I remember seeing a SOLA for using Grazon 90 in a weedwiper but don't have any info to hand and cant remember more detail. Currently as far as I know you are still covered for a weedwiper by having a PA2 and as such you should have been trained to know how to read a product label to understand how to use the products concerned, however there were mumblings last year that another category would be added to the PA? system specifically for weedwipers. I don't know if this has progressed any further or not.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulscots View Post
    Rules for weedwipers are clear, unless a product label specifies the type of equipment you plan on using and states that this product can be used be used in it then you cant "legally" use that product in that machine. Lots of products say "not suitable for use in handheld lance" so you cant use them in a a knapsack. The same thing goes for weedwipers, most but not all glyphosates are allowed to be used in weedwipers, I remember seeing a SOLA for using Grazon 90 in a weedwiper but don't have any info to hand and cant remember more detail. Currently as far as I know you are still covered for a weedwiper by having a PA2 and as such you should have been trained to know how to read a product label to understand how to use the products concerned, however there were mumblings last year that another category would be added to the PA? system specifically for weedwipers. I don't know if this has progressed any further or not.
    Ulscots has provided some interesting and useful information.

    It is also my understanding that the legality of using wipers is not clear. Many years ago I came across a publication which declined to give advice on mixing rates for wipers, leaving it to machine manufacturers to make recommendations. I used Google to find the following:

    http://www.monsanto-ag.co.uk/roundup...n/weed-wipers/

    If you scroll to the bottom, you will note that Monsanto passes the onus onto the manufacturers to specify herbicide concentrations. What a copout!

    Note also that this info is only from Monsanto, since glyphosate from that company has long had approval for use through wipers. My guess is that there will never be approval for other herbicides, because doing the trials required will be more expensive than the companies can justify on the small volumes of herbicide likely to be sold as a result.

    Similarly, I doubt that any government agency will do the required trials. That said, I know for personal communications that many farmers in UK, Aus. and NZ use a wide range of herbicides with great success. Example: from anecdotal information, Clopyralid based herbicides appear to produce better results than glyphosate when wiping thistles, although they seem to be more sensitive to the presence of adequate soil moisture. In Tasmania, Clopyralid has a Special Registration for wiping ragwort.

    Tread your own path!

    JV

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    Re: docks and pastor

    http://www.microngroup.com/files/wee...ical_guide.pdf

    Page 4. Don't know if it applies to UK tho. Looked again and it has a UK address.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulscots View Post
    http://www.microngroup.com/files/wee...ical_guide.pdf

    Page 4. Don't know if it applies to UK tho. Looked again and it has a UK address.
    Well spotted, Ulscots!

    I should have been familiar with that info, and quoted it, coz Micron is one of my UK dealers. I've taken my eye off the ball .

    Although Micron says

    "Due to the extensive variability of field circumstances, weather conditions, etc., Micron Group can offer no
    warranty whatsoever on these procedures.",

    I would take all their advice seriously, since I know that their principal keeps a very close eye on the herbicide scene. In addition, the Acknowledgments indicate that they have researched the literature. Not only that, the company has a long history of research and the culture of research, in particular on herbicide droplet sizes, having invented the spinning disk applicator. (Their new logo is a stylised representation of that technology). They know their stuff.

    I'm not familiar with the words "Text clearance." and "NFU SOLA No xxx", so I don't know their relevance to the topic at hand.

    I'm aware that Garford is now marketing a wiper which claims to have an electronic feedback system to monitor & control the supply of herbicide to the wiping element in the same way that the Weedswiper's Hydrostat does. I wonder if they offer any info on herbicide use.


    JV


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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Well spotted, Ulscots!

    I should have been familiar with that info, and quoted it, coz Micron is one of my UK dealers. I've taken my eye off the ball .

    Although Micron says

    "Due to the extensive variability of field circumstances, weather conditions, etc., Micron Group can offer no
    warranty whatsoever on these procedures.",

    I would take all their advice seriously, since I know that their principal keeps a very close eye on the herbicide scene. In addition, the Acknowledgments indicate that they have researched the literature. Not only that, the company has a long history of research and the culture of research, in particular on herbicide droplet sizes, having invented the spinning disk applicator. (Their new logo is a stylised representation of that technology). They know their stuff.

    I'm not familiar with the words "Text clearance." and "NFU SOLA No xxx", so I don't know their relevance to the topic at hand.

    I'm aware that Garford is now marketing a wiper which claims to have an electronic feedback system to monitor & control the supply of herbicide to the wiping element in the same way that the Weedswiper's Hydrostat does. I wonder if they offer any info on herbicide use.


    JV

    JV I thought my post from the other night might give you a poke in the right direction. ;-);-)
    With reference to the "NFU SOLA No. 0662/92" possibly Ollie can shed some light on it if you can't dig any more up. I put it in a Google search that didn't make me any the wiser.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulscots View Post
    JV I thought my post from the other night might give you a poke in the right direction. ;-);-)
    With reference to the "NFU SOLA No. 0662/92" possibly Ollie can shed some light on it if you can't dig any more up. I put it in a Google search that didn't make me any the wiser.
    Cheeky bugger!

    I'll enquire direct. I thought to check the Garford website re their Weedfoil; no mention of herbicides.

    JV

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    Re: docks and pastor

    In these changing times of chemical registrations I would be very hesitant to tell anyone what is or is not legal in a weed wiper as it is a specialist application and I have minimal experience of it at best. I can speak to a contractor I deal with a lot who runs one though, I will report back from him as he has done it for years.

    Certainly I would no longer rely on a 'SOLA' as the terminology has now been replaced and so seeing SOLA on a label will mean it is somewhat out of date- it has been replaced now by EAMUs, which are getting fewer and fewer as chemical companies refuse to submit the necessary data in order to gain approval for what can be very minor crops.

    I am not certain which glyphosate labels are certified for knapsack or weed wiper use but I shall find out. A quick wonder through the ubiquitous green book does not reveal that much. As with many products, clearance for hydraulic sprayers does not guarantee clearance for use in other equipment or methods the reason is linked to operator exposure- a man in a cab is protected by filters when spraying, someone using a knapsack or weed wiper on an ATV could be happily exposed to drift etc.

    Lastly, using Clopyralid for controlling ragwort will lead to much frustration. You can spray Pastor around the place quite freely and if you control a single ragwort plant it will be a stroke of luck, even Dow- the manufacturers of Clopyralid admit this.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Hi, got a new ley with red clover that has a lot of young docks coming through, 7 acres in total. What are my options? I would like to preserve the clover.
    Spot spraying an option or boom sprayer available . What sprays can I use?
    Thanks for your replys

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    Re: docks and pastor

    any point of spraying docks now.spraying now will have little effect on grass growth,

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    Re: docks and pastor

    It's always worth spraying them!!!

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by grassmanman View Post
    It's always worth spraying them!!!
    depends on how many there are .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by grassmanman View Post
    It's always worth spraying them!!!
    as opposed to a spring spray app 2016

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    depends on how many there are .
    I'll admit to having a bit of OCD when it comes to dockens, I totally hate them and have very few of them left through field spraying and spot spraying before they produce seed heads. All field margins and hedges are kept free of them. Any that are seen with seed heads get pulled and bagged and burnt. Silage ground gets walked before mowing.
    I also will stop tractor when mowing silage and pull any that have been missed this year it was about 1 every 10 acres.
    Unfortunately some of my neighbours aren't very particular so seeds do get carried across so totally eradicating them is impossible.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenhoof View Post
    Hi, got a new ley with red clover that has a lot of young docks coming through, 7 acres in total. What are my options? I would like to preserve the clover.
    Spot spraying an option or boom sprayer available . What sprays can I use?
    Thanks for your replys
    How long has the ley been in?

    If it is a new ley, your options are Triad and Spruce. Triad is a weird chemical whose main strength is chickweed. The Spruce is only 2,4D and it is tame but it is all you have.

    Basically wait until the clover has 3 good true leaves and you apply 5g of Triad and 2-3L of Spruce. You will be able to control a lot of stuff if it is from seed. Docks from roots you will struggle with.

    Do not apply immediately prior to a frost or you will zap the clover.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenhoof View Post
    Hi, got a new ley with red clover that has a lot of young docks coming through, 7 acres in total. What are my options? I would like to preserve the clover.
    Spot spraying an option or boom sprayer available . What sprays can I use?
    Thanks for your replys
    If it is a good red clover ley i would not worry about the docks as you will be cutting at least 3 times and the docks will not get that forward. In my experience red clover will swamp docks and they will not make much progress.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by zsnotdead View Post
    any point of spraying docks now.spraying now will have little effect on grass growth,
    I'd go ahead and do them now especially if you have the time, come spring you could find yourself too busy and not get time again. Try this, used it in spring on a couple of fields for a customer, very slow to work but a great kill in long run.......https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...kLVWPSa0EF3FNg
    John Steele usually keeps it.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    How does the treatment cost of squire compare to standard SUs - ally/finy?

    Does it singe the grass like them?

    I'm still happy using ally/finy in September on limited acreage where I can spare the grass.

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