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Thread: docks and pastor

  1. #31
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    In these changing times of chemical registrations I would be very hesitant to tell anyone what is or is not legal in a weed wiper as it is a specialist application and I have minimal experience of it at best. I can speak to a contractor I deal with a lot who runs one though, I will report back from him as he has done it for years.

    Certainly I would no longer rely on a 'SOLA' as the terminology has now been replaced and so seeing SOLA on a label will mean it is somewhat out of date- it has been replaced now by EAMUs, which are getting fewer and fewer as chemical companies refuse to submit the necessary data in order to gain approval for what can be very minor crops.

    I am not certain which glyphosate labels are certified for knapsack or weed wiper use but I shall find out. A quick wonder through the ubiquitous green book does not reveal that much. As with many products, clearance for hydraulic sprayers does not guarantee clearance for use in other equipment or methods the reason is linked to operator exposure- a man in a cab is protected by filters when spraying, someone using a knapsack or weed wiper on an ATV could be happily exposed to drift etc.

    Lastly, using Clopyralid for controlling ragwort will lead to much frustration. You can spray Pastor around the place quite freely and if you control a single ragwort plant it will be a stroke of luck, even Dow- the manufacturers of Clopyralid admit this.
    In https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...MlH8tQ6oc2Ku2w
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...xdNttTErYVuMLQ

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...9rChHHBdpj4o4g
    These 3 glyphosate products all mention the use of weedwipers and knapsack on their labels being acceptable, don't know about others, these are just ones I have used.

  2. #32
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    How does the treatment cost of squire compare to standard SUs - ally/finy?

    Does it singe the grass like them?

    I'm still happy using ally/finy in September on limited acreage where I can spare the grass.
    Hi

    Ally and Finy are not approved for use on grass. Where I am using Cimarron (which has the exact same active ingredient) the dose of active is much reduced and so the effects on grass are negligible. This is why you are seeing the grass get hit- you are using a rate of metsulfuron designed for cereals- IE much hardier plants.

    Squire ultra is Amidosulfuron and it can hit the grass pretty hard sometimes and won't be as cheap as Cimarron- in actuality it is designed for use in clover leys. I can't remember what other weeds it will do but I doubt it will have the spectrum of weeds that Cimarron does.

    Triad is designed for clover leys but it has a peculiarly narrow weed spectrum and is a lot tamer. It won't kill big granddad docks from root mass but in a new ley you shouldn't have a lot of these and the addition of Spruce will twist them up anyway.

    The clover safe alternative to Squire Ultra is Pinnacle, which is another SU- Thifensulfuron this time. It again won't hold a candle to Cimarron but it is clover safe. Also bear in mind curled leaf dock is completely resistant to it. Again add with Spruce to help. Red clover really does not like this stuff, Triad can make it sick enough, like being shot in the leg. Pinnacle is like being shot in the gut.

    Bear in mind that Triad is the only SU safe enough to use in a new ley, clover or otherwise. It also works very slowly, particularly in cool weather.

    Regarding the use of glyphosate I have been told by my man who knows about such things that you need to use a good quality glyphosate product, not the typical carp hawked out en masse, and add LI700 to it. The spray solution is used at a 25:1 ratio with water. Assuming you set the machine correctly, anything touched by the weed wiper will be toast.

    The problem with weed wiping is that you are limited to killing what you touch. If you have a range of weeds of various shapes and sizes, it is more cost effective to spray a selective product. For example, a weed wiper will work well in creeping thistles that you have previously topped as they tower above the sward and will be nearly uniform in size. What it won't do is anything for your creeping buttercup or similar at the same time, so it might pay to consider overall spraying anyway.

  3. #33
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Thanks for that. I am using finy at 3rd rate I'm told - 3g to the acre. Very cheap, though it still hurts the grass a bit. But at this time of the year, we've got the vast majority of our production. It just feels bad when trying to build covers up!

    I'm told that the SU is the only practical chance of a cost effective kill, that dockstar pastor and forefront are only temporary control in varying degrees.

  4. #34
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Forefront is hideously expensive but it does work. You won't ever use it twice, but it is overkill for just docks and I would only use it when you have a real shambles.

    Pastor is a bit much the same. If you have nettles, thistles and docks, it is a pastor job- your Finy won't kill thistles or nettles very well on it's own.

    Doxstar is a good product but the clopyralid is not cheap. It is the fluroxpyr in it that is really twisting the docks up.

    When I use cimarron I partner it with a hormone herbicide- it makes it kinder to the grass and helps punch it into the docks better and of course it works a lot faster. IE Relay-P or similar at half rate.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Not familiar with some of the brands you mention, so looked up relay. One website selling at 50 for five litres. At 2 to the acre, that's heck of a dear even at half rate. Is there a reason why you don't go for polo, which at 1.4 to the acre is a lot cheaper and is actually recommended to touch docks?

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Oh, and the other weed which annoys the heck of me is chickweed.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Not familiar with some of the brands you mention, so looked up relay. One website selling at 50 for five litres. At 2 to the acre, that's heck of a dear even at half rate. Is there a reason why you don't go for polo, which at 1.4 to the acre is a lot cheaper and is actually recommended to touch docks?
    Hi

    There are dozens of hormone mixtures from all over, we just happen to have a deal with Headland. Half rate Relay would be 2-3L/hectare sorry if I have confused you.

    Polo is ok but it is not all that great on docks. Thistles and Buttercup are ok but you want mecoprop or dicamba for docks really.

    All the hormones have strengths and weaknesses, Polo for example, won't do much for chickweed. Ally certainly will kill it, and mecoprop-p will. The other alternative is Fluroxypyr (the original active in starane) which is quite cheap which also smashes docks to oblivion.

    All of the above is a lot cheaper than pastor or the like. All the Dow products are expensive.

  8. #38
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Hi

    There are dozens of hormone mixtures from all over, we just happen to have a deal with Headland. Half rate Relay would be 2-3L/hectare sorry if I have confused you.

    Polo is ok but it is not all that great on docks. Thistles and Buttercup are ok but you want mecoprop or dicamba for docks really.

    All the hormones have strengths and weaknesses, Polo for example, won't do much for chickweed. Ally certainly will kill it, and mecoprop-p will. The other alternative is Fluroxypyr (the original active in starane) which is quite cheap which also smashes docks to oblivion.

    All of the above is a lot cheaper than pastor or the like. All the Dow products are expensive.
    Does Dow own Headland? As in a subsiduary or share holder etc.. I was using a Headland product earlier in year which is a cheaper comparative product to one of Dows with same actives at same rate and it was in packaging marked with Dow Agrochemicals on lids.

  9. #39
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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulscots View Post
    Does Dow own Headland? As in a subsiduary or share holder etc.. I was using a Headland product earlier in year which is a cheaper comparative product to one of Dows with same actives at same rate and it was in packaging marked with Dow Agrochemicals on lids.
    Hi

    I am not certain but Headland are owned by Cheminova, who are in turn owned by FMC, a pretty big company. Whether Dow have an interest in this chain somewhere I don't know but chemical companies do have marketing and supply agreements, particularly in places like Ireland. So it is no uncommon to have a chemical in a can which might have a lid and bottle identical to the one supplied (normally at a hefty premium mind!) by a big name company, only to have a label with someone elses name on- Headland, Nufarm etc.

    Such is the way of parallel and generic chemicals.

    I don't have any particular affiliation to any chemical company, I just use things according to what is available and value. Names, formulations, actives, you just weigh them up in accordance with what the customer wants.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Oh, and the other weed which annoys the heck of me is chickweed.
    I've sprayed maybe a bit more than 100 acres for docks this year. My preferred poison is Forefront but is not currently economically viable in my opinion, despite its efficacy.
    I used Doxstar and have found it to be very effective over the years. Usually apply between first and second cut if I can't get it done in the short window available before first cut.
    However, I've just done some grazing pasture where the docks were embarrassing. Cows will be back in tomorrow actually. One of the three 7 acre fields had quite well grown chickweed in patches and the Doxstar certainly seems to have hit that as well as the docks.

    Next year should be more-or-less spray free unless some docks grow back and need to be hit at half rate to finish them off. I would be surprised if many do survive, although I haven't sprayed them at this time of year before.

    I would not use a weed wiper on docks here as they grow quite low to the grass unless they are left to grow to a reproductive stage, which I try to avoid by cutting them.

    On another tack, I have had a few patches of grass that have been attacked by leatherjackets. The worse attack that I can remember. Are they susceptible to being killed off just now or is it best to wait for the new leatherjacket crop and spray for them in early November?
    The Duck 2015

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Doxstar will kill chickweed, it is the fluroxypyr in it that does the damage to chickweed, same as when you are using pastor.

    As with all these chemicals they don't work anything worth a damn if the weather is cold and the weeds aren't growing. This is why so many people prefer to spray after first cut rather than before.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowabunga View Post
    My preferred poison is Forefront but is not currently economically viable in my opinion, despite its efficacy.
    Yes, Forefront is the dogs bollocks for docks but, as you say, it's expensive.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    Yes, Forefront is the dogs bollocks for docks but, as you say, it's expensive.
    Great stuff. Used it 5 years ago before it was withdrawn for a while and cleared out all grass weeds including ragwort.

    Been using straight Fluroxypr as mentioned by uwork4menow in the form of Tomahawk more recently. A lot cheaper and fairly curls the docks up but they seem to need redoing a year or two later whereas haven't had to go back onto the forefront treated field again.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    What's in garlon pro? I was talking to someone on the railways who thought it was fantastic on docks. Not sure whether it can be used around live stock though..

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Valtra man View Post
    What's in garlon pro? I was talking to someone on the railways who thought it was fantastic on docks. Not sure whether it can be used around live stock though..
    Same actives as Forefront T. In lower rates probably due to Garlon Ultra being licensed for use in handheld devices whereas Forefront T isn't.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    I've done another 35 acres today. about 20 with the remaining Doxstar I had in stock, then with Starane at 2l/hectare. The rest for chickweed using Starane at 1 litre.

    Dread to think what Forefront costs these days. Starane is bad enough at 9.50 per acre at full rate for docks.
    The Duck 2015

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    Re: docks and pastor

    It is very easy to become excited about chemical costs but in reality chemicals are tools which do a very specific job.

    As you say, Starane at 10 an acre or Forefront at 20, look expensive but they aren't compared to reseeding- lets say 100/acre, easy. If you spend that 10 or 20 quid now and extend the life of a ley a few more years, suddenly it looks very cheap. Not only that but in today's financial situation can you afford to be throwing 40/acre worth of nitrogen at a field full of docks and mess, and then paying a contractor 50 an acre to put that same rubbish in the pit? And then of course you end up spending yet more money trying to buy in expensive concentrates to make up for the fact your silage was pants.

    Lets say the Duck spent 1500 spraying 100 acres of grass with Doxstar. A big bill by anyones measure. But what will 1500 buy the stock farmer today? You can have 100 acres of clean silage leys which might feed your cows for 9 months. By contrast if you spend your 1500 on dairy cake, it might buy you what, 6 or 8 tonnes of compound which will last a week for a modest sized herd?

    It is the same when it comes to soil testing, lime and phosphate etc. There are still people out there reseeding at great cost, only to totally neglect everything else that makes grass grow. It is false economy. The other classic is people who gleefully explain at great length that they drill all their Italians behind maize at 12kg/acre 'because it is cheap'. Now, Italian ryegrass seed is massive. Compare a handful of it to the mythical Aber diploids and you can see it plain as day. Sow the damn stuff at 16 or even 18kg and you will have a much better crop that cuts heavier, for longer.

    Moving back to weed control, as enthusiastic as you all are about Forefront-T, it is very expensive, and has so many restrictions to it's use (only allowed to use on grazing land, muck must remain on the farm and only applied to grass etc etc etc) that I must be the party-pooper in some ways. In reality I have only used the stuff a handful of times and even then I would only use it when you have a real shambles- when you have the docks, thistles, nettles and buttercup/ragwort all in the same field(s). Now I am certain that none of you have hundreds of acres of this sort of problem, and certainly would not need it every year, save your money and use Pastor or ThistleX or alternatives instead.

    Where you have the run of the mill docks OR thistles OR buttercup OR ragwort, there are cheaper and almost as effective products, I for one, would not recommend someone used forefront just for docks, they can be killed just as well with something for less than half the price. Even if you need to do it twice you'll still be better off, even forefront only kills what it touches, and you can bet your money that with grassland spraying you will rarely do a 100% job by virtue of the fact there is always a handful of weeds that weren't poking their heads up when the sprayer came along.

    Finally, where you have a real good population of grassland weeds AND you know the grass is definitely beyond it's time, you really should consider growing a wholecrop cereal or maize and then going back to grass. In wheat, I can kill docks or other miscreants with twice the poke for half the money. Get your crop drilled the last week of September, put on a basic pre-em (if nothing else just use Stomp and DFF), come back in April or early May when the docks are really growing and whack them with 10g/ha of Ally or Slalom or something. 10g of Ally won't even cost you 4/acre and is way more potent than most grassland sprays due to the fact that wheat is a hardier plant and can deal with greater chemical loadings. Wholecrop off in July, disc the stubble and harrow the grass seed in. Ta-da- reseed into clean ground. Think of it as a more convoluted way of reseeding.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    That all makes good sense. Always amazes me the rubbish some guys put into silage pits and then feed meal heavy along with.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    So Cimarron is licensed for grassland. I see it contains 500g/kg metslfuron methyl. Is it actually any different from the likes of Finy which has the same active ingredient? (Apart from product concentration - 500g vs 200g). Do you recommend the label rate of 3g/ha? If so, that should equate to 7g/ha of Finy.

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    Re: docks and pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    So Cimarron is licensed for grassland. I see it contains 500g/kg metslfuron methyl. Is it actually any different from the likes of Finy which has the same active ingredient? (Apart from product concentration - 500g vs 200g). Do you recommend the label rate of 3g/ha? If so, that should equate to 7g/ha of Finy.
    It is the same active as Finy/Ally. I don't know if it is formulated the same. I always use Cimarron at 3g/ha, not more and not less. I always use it with a hormone partner, too. Polo etc works fine.

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