Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    It's a 2001 jag 850 and it's been a bad starter since I got it, turns over far too long even after working for a few hours, tried earths, new battery, changed some one way fuel valves still not much different,
    Any suggestions??

  2. #2
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    It's a 2001 jag 850 and it's been a bad starter since I got it, turns over far too long even after working for a few hours, tried earths, new battery, changed some one way fuel valves still not much different,
    Any suggestions??
    Plumb in a pressure gauge between the fuel filter and injection pump so you can see whats happening. It will enable you to figure out more clearly whats going on.
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Plumb in a pressure gauge between the fuel filter and injection pump so you can see whats happening. It will enable you to figure out more clearly whats going on.
    Thanks I might try that.
    I had a perkins in a Massey with a similar problem turned out to be an injector leak off but this merc has unit pumps and I have no knowledge of these

  4. #4
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    Thanks I might try that.
    I had a perkins in a Massey with a similar problem turned out to be an injector leak off but this merc has unit pumps and I have no knowledge of these
    Shooting in the dark, but if by "unit pumps" you mean common rail or a system with electronically controlled unit injectors it could be just low primary fuel pressure. Could be anything from restricted supply of fuel, problems with the low pressure pump (if fitted), fuel leaking back to the tank from either a faulty seal, or one or more injectors seriously leaking by back to tank. Winding over a lot to start sounds like fuel is draining away and you are having to crank it to get pressure up enough to signal to an ecu its all good to go.
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Shooting in the dark, but if by "unit pumps" you mean common rail or a system with electronically controlled unit injectors it could be just low primary fuel pressure. Could be anything from restricted supply of fuel, problems with the low pressure pump (if fitted), fuel leaking back to the tank from either a faulty seal, or one or more injectors seriously leaking by back to tank. Winding over a lot to start sounds like fuel is draining away and you are having to crank it to get pressure up enough to signal to an ecu its all good to go.
    That's what I'm thinking but it makes little difference priming it first and how fast would it drain back? You can stop it for a couple of minutes and it does the same. Best way is to turn it over for 10 seconds stop then try again and sometimes it starts straight away

  6. #6
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    That's what I'm thinking but it makes little difference priming it first and how fast would it drain back? You can stop it for a couple of minutes and it does the same. Best way is to turn it over for 10 seconds stop then try again and sometimes it starts straight away
    Earlier reply didn't come over really clear. I'd stick a pressure gauge in if possible if there is an electric or mechanical priming pump to see what is happening , a clear pvc hose is also handy if there is cavitation or air entering. If there is positive pressure there ruling out that side of the fuel system (assuming its a modern common rail or electronic unit injectors I would then look for a leaking relief valve/shut down valve or injector issue.

    Without knowing what the injector type is, it could range from too much internal leakage (on some with a back leakage return you can connect metering tubes to collect any leakage over a set time as a guide - often one or more faulty injectors may result in more losses than the system can manage particularly at low revs or cranking to start- I have known an engine with this last issue to fire up with a squirt of easy start simply because the initial firing would get it spinning quicker than the starter could!) It could also be a faulty seal if they are the unit type injectors with a fuel gallery in the head?

    Rule out the simple LP side first.
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Thanks, as far as I can see the fuel lines come from the tank to the hand primer then to the filter then they disappear up to the engine but there is no rail like on my Massey, my Massey I had trouble with had a low pressure pump I don't think this does, when you pump the hand primer it never seems to get solid you can just keep pumping, all pipes seem dry I can't see any signs of fuel leaks however I May replace all the fuel lines this winter just to rule that out

  8. #8
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Is this the type of engine? http://autoline.info/sf/spare-parts-...935096500.html

    look through the pictures and Image No 5 has what seems to be mechanical unit pumps piped direct to individual injectors.

    After a bit of searching it seems to be used in the states on freightliner trucks where I found this document


    https://ddcsn-ddc.freightliner.com/c...mbe900-05a.pdf

    It seems that the call your OM460la engine something else, but the manual looks to cover a lot of info about the engines fuel system and may give you a good idea and food for thought? It has a section for "winds over but fails to fire" so it seems a common fault then?
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  9. #9
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Milford-on-Sea, Lymington, Hampshire, England.
    Posts
    8

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    It's a 2001 jag 850 and it's been a bad starter since I got it, turns over far too long even after working for a few hours, tried earths, new battery, changed some one way fuel valves still not much different,
    Any suggestions??
    Try J.HORSLEY ELECTRONICS for problems with Claas Jaguar circuit boards, burns under the diagnostic plug.
    See www.jhorsley.com or call me on 01590 642345 or 07834 900955.

  11. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Milford-on-Sea, Lymington, Hampshire, England.
    Posts
    8

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    It's a 2001 jag 850 and it's been a bad starter since I got it, turns over far too long even after working for a few hours, tried earths, new battery, changed some one way fuel valves still not much different,
    Any suggestions??
    Has the circuit got a burn under or by the side of the Diagnostic Plug.
    If so try J.HORSLEY ELECTRONICS for repair.
    See www.jhorsley.com for details.
    Or call me on 01590 642345 or 07834 900955.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Hi, this problem is still ongoing and any help would be greatly appreciated, the engine is an LM 457 Mercedes

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by jhorsley View Post
    Has the circuit got a burn under or by the side of the Diagnostic Plug.
    If so try J.HORSLEY ELECTRONICS for repair.
    See www.jhorsley.com for details.
    Or call me on 01590 642345 or 07834 900955.
    Which circuit? On the engine or in the cab?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    Hi, this problem is still ongoing and any help would be greatly appreciated, the engine is an LM 457 Mercedes

    Did the post above with the info on fuel system make any sense? looking at images of a LM457 engine, it seems the one the fuel diagram above and yours are from the same model- different power output?

    Did it start better before being like it is now or has it been like this since you've been involved with it? Know anyone with another similar forager?


    We've recently changed challenger and the "new" one (to us) seems strange because its model Cat engine uses engine oil to work the unit injectors so it winds over a lot until oil pressure is high enough to work in the injection system and then boom its away- just the way it is by design.

    It would be handy to know what the "normal" cranking time ought to be on your machine?
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  15. #15
    Senior Member ACE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    1,594

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    FF the Merc engines used in the manitous have awful starter motors on them from new. I have changed several now some on machines with just 300hours on the clock! Fit one of the iskra 4.2kw ones and they start instantly.

    Have to have a soft start relay on them though or would burn out the ecu as its the ecu that triggers the starter motor. The correct iskra start comes with the soft start relay fitted.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Thanks for the advice, it's always been a bad starter since I got the machine but recently it's been even worse, so bad in fact we cooked the starter last week beyond repair. Brand new starter was ordered and its buzzes off no problem now so it more than likely been the problem all along I think it must be linked to oil pressure like you mentioned

  17. #17
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    Thanks for the advice, it's always been a bad starter since I got the machine but recently it's been even worse, so bad in fact we cooked the starter last week beyond repair. Brand new starter was ordered and its buzzes off no problem now so it more than likely been the problem all along I think it must be linked to oil pressure like you mentioned

    Hopefully that will see you ok for a while, if it starts to play up in the future, remember to get back to Ace to sort out one of the Isekra starters.
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  18. #18
    Senior Member Footsfitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Basingstoke, Hants
    Posts
    2,759

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by ACE View Post
    FF the Merc engines used in the manitous have awful starter motors on them from new. I have changed several now some on machines with just 300hours on the clock! Fit one of the iskra 4.2kw ones and they start instantly.

    Have to have a soft start relay on them though or would burn out the ecu as its the ecu that triggers the starter motor. The correct iskra start comes with the soft start relay fitted.
    When you say "soft start" relay, do they mean having a piggy back relay on the starters solenoid just to reduce the amp draw for the ecu?
    The best thing about Facebook is the logout button......

  19. #19
    Senior Member ACE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    1,594

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    When you say "soft start" relay, do they mean having a piggy back relay on the starters solenoid just to reduce the amp draw for the ecu?
    Basically yes. Ecu triggles a small solenoid relay and that then triggers the main starter solenoid. Theres a pic of the starter on my website.

  20. #20
    Senior Member ACE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    1,594

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    Thanks for the advice, it's always been a bad starter since I got the machine but recently it's been even worse, so bad in fact we cooked the starter last week beyond repair. Brand new starter was ordered and its buzzes off no problem now so it more than likely been the problem all along I think it must be linked to oil pressure like you mentioned
    If its the same 12volt one manitou use i hope you found out price before ordering. There 700 odd quid from manitou or Merc. Of cause yours may not be the same I'm only guessing. Edit thats plus vat!

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North yorkshire
    Posts
    518

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by ACE View Post
    If its the same 12volt one manitou use i hope you found out price before ordering. There 700 odd quid from manitou or Merc. Of cause yours may not be the same I'm only guessing. Edit thats plus vat!
    Merc one was 700, claas had one for 650 I got one from elsewhere but I have yet to find out what I paid, seen one on eBay for mid 300

  22. #22
    Senior Member ACE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    1,594

    Re: Claas Jaguar 850 bad starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy6480 View Post
    Merc one was 700, claas had one for 650 I got one from elsewhere but I have yet to find out what I paid, seen one on eBay for mid 300
    I do the Iskra 4.2kw one for Manitou at 330 plus vat delivered, twice the original starter for half the price.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •