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Thread: direct drilling photo gallery?

  1. #121
    back'o'beyond
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by giubraz1 View Post
    Cross Slot??
    I respect that machine, yes it is a No-Till Drill Machine and does a respectable job.

    Aitchinson?? you are joking Will. I don't know what would do more damage to your crop&Soil : the SLAGS or AITCHINSON Tine Drill.

    By the way Will, show me your pictures of No-Till, I would like to make some comments.

    cheers mate;
    giubraz1,
    The Aitchinson is based around the Inverted 'T' Baker Boot, it was that boot that then evolved into the Cross Slot. It may move more soil but it really isn't that far away and takes a heck of a lot less power to pull! I've seen the Aitchinson and Cross Slot working in the same field (the soil was quite damp) and to be honest to me the Aitchinson was making a better job, the Cross Slot was just to heavy for those conditions. I'm not sure where you got the idea the Aitchinson is more like a minimum tillage drill it really doesn't move that much soil, although it might if you pull it fast enough!

    The pictures of your clients crops look good and the drill looks like a useful tool. Judging from the landscape in the background things are quite dry where you are. I guess you are more worried about not having enough moisture, rather than hoping it would dry up a bit at drilling time?
    I like the theory of moving as little soil as possible but I think for us to go as extreme as your managing to do would mean the difference between being able to get crops in the ground (almost) every year, and having a big risk of not cropping some land quite often.
    Tine drills verse disc drills argument has pluses and minuses on both sides and we are still learning what we can and can't get away with. Let us gain some confidence and we might find ways to get closer to your level of soil movement. We have to realise we can walk before we even think of trying to run!
    Thanks for your input,
    B'o'B

  2. #122
    fred
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    giubraz1 at the risk of sounding too "drill mad" what is that drill opener from and is that an inverted t boot.

  3. #123
    fred
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by giubraz1 View Post
    Yeahh, the wet and cold condition in UK is a challange, I have been following your discussions regarding slags, and all of that. I understand. In fact we in the Southern Hemisfere or even in the USA, we try to evoid evaporation and preserve moisture in the soil.

    Apparently that's exactly what you guys need to get rid of ( moisture), because of slags and damp soil condition, and all the troubles generated by them.

    Maybe a system that envolves a disc coulter following right behind a narrow point would be a suggestion for your soils and if you prefere place a press wheel right behind to make sure soil contact will happen. like this in the photo...
    cheers mate and congratulations for all of your endevour to try and encourage conservation soils.
    This one i mean.

  4. #124
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    guibraz

    wheat after wheat. straw baled. using the triple disc drill known as "the mighty Sukup". Still for sale at 3k folks!

  5. #125
    BSH
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    guibraz which model drill is the picture of the disc from?

  6. #126
    Spud
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    How does the simba horsch fit in to one pass drilling? I was reading a piece in CPM magazine earlier today detailing its band sowing (175mm bands at 320mm spacing iirc) - just wondered if it was a principle worth looking into, or a drill with the possibility for adaption to establish a crop with one pass?

  7. #127
    giubraz1
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by back'o'beyond View Post
    giubraz1,
    The Aitchinson is based around the Inverted 'T' Baker Boot, it was that boot that then evolved into the Cross Slot. It may move more soil but it really isn't that far away and takes a heck of a lot less power to pull! I've seen the Aitchinson and Cross Slot working in the same field (the soil was quite damp) and to be honest to me the Aitchinson was making a better job, the Cross Slot was just to heavy for those conditions. I'm not sure where you got the idea the Aitchinson is more like a minimum tillage drill it really doesn't move that much soil, although it might if you pull it fast enough!

    The pictures of your clients crops look good and the drill looks like a useful tool. Judging from the landscape in the background things are quite dry where you are. I guess you are more worried about not having enough moisture, rather than hoping it would dry up a bit at drilling time?
    I like the theory of moving as little soil as possible but I think for us to go as extreme as your managing to do would mean the difference between being able to get crops in the ground (almost) every year, and having a big risk of not cropping some land quite often.
    Tine drills verse disc drills argument has pluses and minuses on both sides and we are still learning what we can and can't get away with. Let us gain some confidence and we might find ways to get closer to your level of soil movement. We have to realise we can walk before we even think of trying to run!
    Thanks for your input,
    B'o'B
    I am not only talking about trash handling but the also seeds placement.

    Sorry but compare Shank Baker Boots( I don't know what so fancy you see in this word) with a much more evolved pice of machine such as a good DISC with individual PRESS WHEEL and INDIVIDUAL DEPTH CONTROL to deposit seeds in the soil........

    Show me an Aitchison with individual depth control and Individual Press Wheel???

    I wonder why CORN PRECISION PLANTERS uses discs instead a"TBaker Boot"??? if tines are so good..........

    cheers Fellas

  8. #128
    back'o'beyond
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by giubraz1 View Post
    I am not only talking about trash handling but the also seeds placement.

    Sorry but compare Shank Baker Boots( I don't know what so fancy you see in this word) with a much more evolved pice of machine such as a good DISC with individual PRESS WHEEL and INDIVIDUAL DEPTH CONTROL to deposit seeds in the soil........

    Show me an Aitchison with individual depth control and Individual Press Wheel???

    I wonder why CORN PRECISION PLANTERS uses discs instead a"TBaker Boot"??? if tines are so good..........

    cheers Fellas
    I guess your a disc drill man then!

    I'm not saying the Cross Slot doesn't have far better depth control but when I saw it working it was compacting the soil behind its very wide tires and in my opinion you are better off with some variation in seed depth into uncompacted soil rather than a seed planted to a precise depth into a compacted soil over about 25% of the drill width.

    Also that Cross Slot really has to earn its keep. It's got to pay for the high HP tractor on the front, extra fuel, all those wearing parts, I would much rather be paying the bills to run an Aitchinson (I wont even go into the purchase prices for a Cross Slot over here )

    The Cross Slot is a wonderful piece of engineering and I have the greatest of admiration for principles its based upon, but its just to heavy and expensive for my liking.

    I have never grown maize but I believe they want a very even plant emergence because of the very short growing season and also high level of bio mass that leads to shading of any late germinating plants, and no I wouldn't even think of drilling maize with an Aitchinson either, but then winter wheat is a bit different.

    Regards B'o'B


    PS. I only called it the "Inverted 'T' Baker Boot" because as far as I'm aware that what its called, sorry if I got that wrong.

  9. #129
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    cross slot may be good engineering (but i would still make changes) but its not good design.

    Its heavy, pricey and hp hungry. Until those who designed it engineer some of those problems away it will always be a niche. shame to say it but thats the truth.

  10. #130
    static_discharge
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by back'o'beyond View Post
    Also that Cross Slot really has to earn its keep. It's got to pay for the high HP tractor on the front, extra fuel, all those wearing parts, I would much rather be paying the bills to run an Aitchinson (I wont even go into the purchase prices for a Cross Slot over here )
    Naught to go wrong with an aitchison either.

    Anyone posted any UK cross slot drilled crops? Especially ones from last autumn on clay?

    Looking at peoples' home made bean/rape drills just underlines the principle that it needs not be rocket science to put a seed under a little bit of soil.

    I will post some more pics of spring beans put i with a machine costing well under 1500 to make - thought that was the point of this thread anyway.

  11. #131
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillScale View Post
    cross slot may be good engineering (but i would still make changes) but its not good design.

    Its heavy, pricey and hp hungry. Until those who designed it engineer some of those problems away it will always be a niche. shame to say it but thats the truth.
    Right on Will....................................but,.....u h...........just wait till the cross slot disciples read that.. They're going to crucify you.:lolk:

  12. #132
    York
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillScale View Post
    cross slot may be good engineering (but i would still make changes) but its not good design.

    Its heavy, pricey and hp hungry. Until those who designed it engineer some of those problems away it will always be a niche. shame to say it but thats the truth.
    Will & others,

    you are sharing your opinion, nothing else. Truth I call s. th. else. Sorry for stepping in here.
    We have a direct comparison of all types & design's and also farmers knowledge level. I invite you to come and we will do a tour and visit the whole bunch of them. Than decide as you get the direct comparison under our conditions.
    Just bear in mind that the current design of Cross Slot which is operating in England isn't the design I would recomend for pure arable farming. It has a 15.7 cm row width = 19 run on 3 m, we would advise 19 run on 4 m = 30% higher capacity, 30% lower wear, lower pulling per meter etc.. Without compromising on yield etc. Even this people can learn.

    Also on your tour you can ask all the oners, operators about their likes & dislike and reparis on the various mashines. The 3 m CS has had no repairs after 2500 ha besides change of wear parts. And there are no repairs in the pipeline. Don't know of many pure in No Till working mashines having such a history. At least not the once we have over here to work with.
    Now that's not a promotion, just to diferentiate between Truth & Opinions.

    York-Th. Bayer

  13. #133
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    York - you have a lot more experience than me and I know you've had good success with them and equally we know each other well enough for you to know that i'm not trying to do the cross slot down.

    But to speak as I find, it can never enter the equation for my farm in its current format for the above reasons.

    And I genuinely think that if Mr Baker did a poll he would find that is the view of a lot of others as well. Personally I still think some of the things i've mentioned could be engineered away to produce a mass market drill.

    Its like the old betamax vs vhs argument.

  14. #134
    NZBob
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    There's probley a market for a budget version of the cross slot. How much money would be made by taking on the likes of John deere I don't know.

    Just to add more fuel to the fire of the perennial tyne vrs disc debate. The impression I always get when I see 300 hp pulling around a 3m drill is that's it's another way to use power and weight to beat the soil into submission, a bit kinder than the power harrow maybe. Just my impression not based on fact.

  15. #135
    static_discharge
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Fuego spring beans drilled on 30cm rows. Gone into heavy land that had felt the effects of being redrained in this wet winter. Slots not really well closed and 37mm of rain in the 6 weeks following them going in. Drilled with home build cultivator with worn shakerator points to about 3 inches covered (!) depth. Crop has had one spray of centium pre-em, and had roundup on the stubbles. Crop rolled after drilling. Following a crop of winter wheat (straw baled by previous owner).

    Not overly impressed, but then another non typical year, and pleased to have some root in the ground to suck some water up.

    Contrast to picture two. Same seed, drill and program, except this is straight into a failed area of rape which was broadcast in the sopping rain. You cant really see the rows, due to camera angle. Straw chopped and spread. Plants are romping along but then before we decided to abandon the rape it had received 200kg/ha bulk urea.

    Slot closing not ideal as the packer on the machine is rubbish, but with a bit of refinement we are pleased with the principle, and especially happy with weed control - ploughed and other cultivated land feeling the effects of a long dry spell for weed pre-em and is has now flushed with rubbish.

    Drill is being remodelled in the workshop, as we have stripped a 4m folding freeflow drill, and are using the frame to hold the same 30cm spaced shakerator coulters. A levelling board type arrangement will move a bit of soil onto the slot infront of the rubber packer. The front packer should help keep the depth right, and flatten the high cut straw for ease of travel.

  16. #136
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by static_discharge View Post
    Fuego spring beans drilled on 30cm rows. Gone into heavy land that had felt the effects of being redrained in this wet winter. Slots not really well closed and 37mm of rain in the 6 weeks following them going in. Drilled with home build cultivator with worn shakerator points to about 3 inches covered (!) depth. Crop has had one spray of centium pre-em, and had roundup on the stubbles. Crop rolled after drilling. Following a crop of winter wheat (straw baled by previous owner).

    Not overly impressed, but then another non typical year, and pleased to have some root in the ground to suck some water up.

    Contrast to picture two. Same seed, drill and program, except this is straight into a failed area of rape which was broadcast in the sopping rain. You cant really see the rows, due to camera angle. Straw chopped and spread. Plants are romping along but then before we decided to abandon the rape it had received 200kg/ha bulk urea.

    Slot closing not ideal as the packer on the machine is rubbish, but with a bit of refinement we are pleased with the principle, and especially happy with weed control - ploughed and other cultivated land feeling the effects of a long dry spell for weed pre-em and is has now flushed with rubbish.

    Drill is being remodelled in the workshop, as we have stripped a 4m folding freeflow drill, and are using the frame to hold the same 30cm spaced shakerator coulters. A levelling board type arrangement will move a bit of soil onto the slot infront of the rubber packer. The front packer should help keep the depth right, and flatten the high cut straw for ease of travel.
    Very educational. Thanks for that. I wish I had some pictures of my spring no-till to share, but it'll have to wait a bit as I'm just going to finish planting it today. The rest of my spring planting had to return to the conventional line up to reduce some risk this crop year till we get the "one pass crop establichment" method figured out.

    This levelling board idea you mention, what sort of design is it? Spring loaded, or floating? Angled to the row or angled to the direction of travel?

    Sure would be great if you had pictures to share of the progress in the shop.

  17. #137
    static_discharge
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Well, the coulter is just a shakerator point, but a really worn one. It is not there for any lifting, however if you run it without a packer you get the slot but with a ridge at either side, I suppose like a "Cupids bow" on your lips

    Now in the dry (yes, we had some) the soil does not flow around and fill the slot, and the packer just squashes it all down rather than fill the slot.

    On the old freeflows, the rear packer had a set of diverters before the rear packer which moved some tilth over the rearmost set of coulters. What I am going to try is removing these, but making something to move the soil of the little ridge into the slot, before the packer shuts the slot.

    It is noticable that beans that fell to either side of the slot, and so had soil pushed ontop of them sent shoots to the side and up out of the slot. Had we had some normal rain, I doubt there would be much need, or even in wetter soils. However, I want a machine that is wider and folds for transport, so why not try and solve the slotting at the same time? Oh, and I am bored waiting for the haymaking, and have a tired freeflow doing nothing.

    Neighbours who used a contractor who has a similar setup (but on subsoiler wide spacings and depth) went over theirs twice with a power harrow to level and fill. Not quite the recuction in time, cost and soil movement that I am aiming for.

    Did I mention that we rolled the drilling the day after? Got a dose of cheepo slug pellets, but havent seen any damage. The first pic has had a fungicide (Bravo), whilst the crop by the rape is untreated. The untreated crop will probably not see the combine - will be mulched or mown for the sheep.

  18. #138
    kpa
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Some more photos all DD'd with Claydon Vee drill
    Left to right
    Cordiale 1st. wheat after OSR chopped straw, grazed with sheep February.
    Einstein 2nd. wheat chopped straw, sheep grazed February into March
    Einstein 2nd. wheat chopped straw, not grazed
    Cordiale 1st. wheat chopped straw, sheep grazed Feb to 3rd.week March

  19. #139
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by static_discharge View Post
    Well, the coulter is just a shakerator point, but a really worn one. It is not there for any lifting, however if you run it without a packer you get the slot but with a ridge at either side, I suppose like a "Cupids bow" on your lips

    Now in the dry (yes, we had some) the soil does not flow around and fill the slot, and the packer just squashes it all down rather than fill the slot.

    On the old freeflows, the rear packer had a set of diverters before the rear packer which moved some tilth over the rearmost set of coulters. What I am going to try is removing these, but making something to move the soil of the little ridge into the slot, before the packer shuts the slot.

    It is noticable that beans that fell to either side of the slot, and so had soil pushed ontop of them sent shoots to the side and up out of the slot. Had we had some normal rain, I doubt there would be much need, or even in wetter soils. However, I want a machine that is wider and folds for transport, so why not try and solve the slotting at the same time? Oh, and I am bored waiting for the haymaking, and have a tired freeflow doing nothing.

    Neighbours who used a contractor who has a similar setup (but on subsoiler wide spacings and depth) went over theirs twice with a power harrow to level and fill. Not quite the recuction in time, cost and soil movement that I am aiming for.

    Did I mention that we rolled the drilling the day after? Got a dose of cheepo slug pellets, but havent seen any damage. The first pic has had a fungicide (Bravo), whilst the crop by the rape is untreated. The untreated crop will probably not see the combine - will be mulched or mown for the sheep.
    Ok, I think I follow everything except the part about the soil not flowing in the dry. What is it that causes that issues? Clods, or a scouring issue with the shank point?

    I was just on the Watkins site and saw a shakerator with a roller that has the disk on one side of a depth ring type deal. That made me wonder, do you suppose a guttler closing wheel would work in place of the board? I have to make an assumption I guess cause I dont know what type of board you are putting together. I have not seen the freeflow drill yet I dont think.

  20. #140
    static_discharge
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
    Ok, I think I follow everything except the part about the soil not flowing in the dry. What is it that causes that issues? Clods, or a scouring issue with the shank point?
    Soil type is the issue. This has gone into land which can only be described as clay. And about nothing else. Subsoil is blue clay and water table is high. In the wet it is like butter and it smears very easily. When it is dry it is like concrete. There is very little time inbetween, and the top inches can be hard as rock whilst under the crust is back to butter. This is not a problem when the soil has been moved by cultivation, or when we are drilling very shallow with a disc drill.

    A narrower shank would also help and I am thinking about it. Also considering a disc to move the soil to close. Many ideas and happy to try them all.

  21. #141
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    We have a bit of soil like that. I just finished planting into it yesterday. We call it "15 minute ground". One minute its too wet, and 15 minutes later its hard as a brick.

    Now I see what you are up against. Will be interesting to see your new drill setup and how it works.

  22. #142
    static_discharge
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    We call it catch-it:

    Catch it if you can.
    Cat s**t if you cant.

  23. #143
    giubraz1
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    NO-Till wheat over pasture.

    This paddock hasn't being farmed for a while because the farmer didn't want to pull rocks using a conventional seeder with a TINE/ Baker Boots ( Minimum-Till) type machine.

    As soon as the seeds germinates i will post to you in order to appraise strike rate.

    The Heavy Duty TDNG 520 Double Disc Assemblies Chop Stones and sow in between.

    cheers fellas

  24. #144
    vphook
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Quote Originally Posted by BSH View Post
    guibraz which model drill is the picture of the disc from?
    To me the opener in the picture looked like a fertilizer opener. For example Yetter in States makes similar desing:
    http://www.yetterco.com/prod_p_2995series.php

    I think Baker No-Tillage tried that kind of opener for seed drilling before Cross-Slot desing. But there was some problems ( can't remember what kind ) and they found out that split tine with disk in between worked better resulting Cross Slot desing.

  25. #145
    Mayo
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Beautiful pictures of no-till crops being established. To see those plants poking through a layer of residue is excellent. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that this is the future of arable farming, more and more we will be doing remedial cultivations only where they are really needed. It makes sense to have the plants surrounded by residue- mulch keeps weeds down, retains soil moisture, intercepts rainfall and protects the soil from erosion.

    All we need now are varieties of crops that resist slugs and soil-borne disease.

  26. #146
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    I agree with you by and large mayo, although I must admit I'm having my arse kicked big time this year with some crops as the land has been too compacted and some crops are struggling. Need to think about my rotation a bit more though. Some land which is in 5th year no till is amazing - like compost. Its springy and bouncy and believe or not getting a lot less weed pressure (less meadowgrass, no couch as its not being spread, no wild oats thanks to two years of axial). Shame I'm going to bugger it all up now and plough for spuds next year!

    On the slugs and soil borne diseases. I was reading some stuff a couple of days ago about worms and how higher worm activity was leading to lower soil born diseases such as fusarium. Of course it all depends on rotation but I can see how the whole biological cycling thing can help this.

  27. #147
    Mayo
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Will

    You see I only have experience of the system on calcareous soils where there is more stone than dirt. Any increase in organic matter pays instant dividends and we don't generally suffer from anything you could describe as water logging.

    We direct drilled spring linseed after cereals and it worked a treat, we direct drilled winter rape and it worked a treat, cereals were another matter. We did a bit of spring barley successfully once, but I think the conditions helped us more than anything, we had a brilliant weed chit over the winter and so murdered that before drilling. I'm convinced that crop did not yield as well as it might have done, had it been established via min-till though.

    Having said that, other farmers in the area had us come and drill some of their winter cereals with the primera and one reported seeing yields of 12T/ha from his winter barley. Wheat seemed on a par with what you'd expect from min-till.

    But this is a world away from the soil you guys are on. On our dirt, if you waited two days ater heavy rainfall, you could travel as the land had dried out.

    Even last autumn, when spreading sewage, only the surface was slimy, the underneath was hard. So we slipped around making a mess, but it was nothing the Discordon wouldn't pull up.

    I like the idea of using a straw rake behind the combine, but I think you'd have more luck if you did it behind the baler...

    Huge lumps of straw sat around, do nothing for your drill and do everything for slugs and weeds. A well distributed layer of mulch is a different matter. I'd give up chopping the damn stuff since you can't spread it any sense of the combine, and get it baled and cleared.

    There- now you have an excuse to keep beef cattle. Again.

  28. #148
    BSH
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    will did you ever read Newman Turners fertility farming? There is some stuff in there about growing spuds with minimal cultivations that you may or may not have considered. I think the basic idea is to cover the spuds with compost above the ground with some limited ridging up later but avoiding the major soil movements. I didnt read it all as we dont do spuds. Might be worth considering especially in light of the benefits of compost/ how to handle straw reidue. Might all be too expensive but seems a shame to destroy your success in no till fields.

  29. #149
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Well its a nice idea bsh but not sure its practical. I've thought about subsoiling and then ridging to reduce inversion but tbh ploughing has never been overly expensive for me.

    Then by the time you're incorporated nematicide or wireworm treatment with the tiller, destoned and planted, dug in the wet because the lorry is waiting then I think any benefits from not inverting are gone! Then chuck in the exacting standards of the pre pack spud trade and the fact that I'm far to gutless to do anything other than what I'm told! It is a shame though as spuds plays havoc with the soil. But don't fancy giving them up.

    What I am finding is that my second crop after spuds is lousy. First year wheat after spuds good and cheap, but then I get the second year syndrome. Plan is after first wheat put another break in perhaps vetch or a legume that can be sheep grazed for a year, then another first wheat, stubble turnip catch crop then a spring wheat, then back to spuds if a 5 year rotation.

    I'd really like to crack SW after WW with a sheep cover crop of some sort between because both would be cheap to grow and I don't notice any compaction trouble either but the difference between sheep hooves on a four year no till field and a one year no till field is very significant (on my farm). ie the soil cannot fight it off

  30. #150
    Ritchie
    Guest

    Re: direct drilling photo gallary?

    Will:
    http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm...turnerToC.html

    Intresting reading here, can't buy a book though.



    Ritchie

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