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Thread: N starter fertilizer

  1. #1
    fred
    Guest

    N starter fertilizer

    The majority of articles i ahve read and possibly more importantly from my own observation most crops could really do with a small ammount of N to set up them up in a direct drill situation from emergence.

    We are now being told that we dont need this (Elmsted) i1m sorry i dont understand what you are saying.

    The other thing i have seen this spring especially with OSr is the effect that straw has alleopathically , We have a 30 acre field, half baled half not , the side that was baled was badly cut up when the starw was removed ruts and stuff , but when it came to drill it (horsch DD)we drilled the whole field as one , my observatio so far is that the baled side has come through winter with a much stonger plant , more of them and less stressed whilst the one s drilled through the chopped straw ,now whether it yields as much we will see but i doubt it .

    So my question is
    Do we remove straw pre osr , or cut the stubble longer .

    And do we add N as a pop up either via the drill or spread on . for osr my material of choice would be DAP . Spread 200kg /ha , sown approx 80 kg/ha

  2. #2
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Fred
    We are looking to place either MAP or DAP at low rates when we are drilling (DD, strip-till what-ever) We are told it works but it is not recommended by any organisation or company so we are going to have to find out for ourselves ....which brings us back to the No-Till Alliance (or whatever it ends up being called) All the work I have found on fertiliser placement is either from abroad or in a "tillage" based system...usually in Scotland.
    It is only an observation but most of the imported (D-D)drills usually have some form of fertiliser placement arrangement which is then often removed by the importer "as it is not needed in the UK" well I think it is...(along with some decent soil analysis so you know what you need to apply if you are not going to go through the "embarresment-period" with your no-till crops)

  3. #3
    Carpathian Cropper
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Fred
    This is what I said on starter fert N fertilisers.

    "The OP is a no till pop up fertiliser in spring rape.Hartwig said 21 N ha of N I said 17. "

    Just to help you get what I meant. The DAP or MAP route that Jim refers to is partly linked and partly to do as Jim says with nutrition in general. But it is not a substitute for blanket dressings of things. Such as Kiserite or sulphur or liquid boron et al.

    One is also looking at acidification of rooting zone as well. York being much better at the this side than I am.

    However if one looks at the volumes you are suggesting up to 80 KG a ha. And rape of maybe 4 kg. Then maybe we should look at mixing the two rather than separate hoppers, metering, coulters and tubes etc.

    Two thoughts are: Use a sumo trio drill and a seed separate system to fert. Or York and 8440 with their spiky wheel fertiliser injectors.

  4. #4
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Fred

    I'd say cut stubble as long as you can any day of the week. For a start it means that stuff isn't trying to break down and tie up your c/n process early on.

    The N thing is a tricky one. It may end up being purely cosmetic. don't get me wrong I've had some lousy looking winter crops this year which I felt all year long I should have fertilised a tiny bit. The plants in the main were there all along .

    do we fertilise the soil or do we fertilise the plant?

    I personally wouldn't use N at drilling. I'd broadcast before or after. I'm not sure I'd use pop up regularly either as I think with spuds in the rotation P indices shuld be high enough.

  5. #5
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Will
    This comes back to having a detailed soil analysis - if your indecies are high enough you do not need "starter-fertilisers" but if your soils are like ours (knackered) then a starter fertiliser may be a viable option..?

  6. #6
    York
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by WillScale View Post
    Fred

    I'd say cut stubble as long as you can any day of the week. For a start it means that stuff isn't trying to break down and tie up your c/n process early on.

    The N thing is a tricky one. It may end up being purely cosmetic. don't get me wrong I've had some lousy looking winter crops this year which I felt all year long I should have fertilised a tiny bit. The plants in the main were there all along .

    do we fertilise the soil or do we fertilise the plant?

    I personally wouldn't use N at drilling. I'd broadcast before or after. I'm not sure I'd use pop up regularly either as I think with spuds in the rotation P indices shuld be high enough.
    Hello Will,

    now let's beginn. Cutting the stubble long will certainly help, but in the end we do not onyl have stubble but also root mass in the top inches where we place the seed. What you are missing is that with normal plant establishment with some extend of tillage you release with each tillage some N, which we don't have in a No Till approach.
    Fertiling the plant or the soil:
    good question. I was thinking about that as well more than once. Have found on the topic of N that too often far less than 50% of the actual given N was taken up by the plants that year it was applied. To illustrate this I have a excample on wheat yield:
    yield without N: 6 t/ha
    with N +180 kgN/ha: 9 t/ha
    other place:
    without N: 9 t/ha
    with N, over 200 kg/ha: 11 t/ha
    I was in discussion with the farmer of the last farmer, as he does over 3 pases on N application and I asked him: "Which shot did get the increase in yield?"
    Now please the organic farmer will never get the yield where the N wasn't applied.
    the point I want to illustrate is that we have in our system quite some carry over.

    Brodcast before or after seeding:
    first you want to leave the stubble on top and than you bradcast the N? Who do you think is sitting first at the table? It's the microbes which use this N for diggesting the stubble.

    York-Th. Bayer

  7. #7
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by York View Post
    Hello Will,

    now let's beginn. Cutting the stubble long will certainly help, but in the end we do not onyl have stubble but also root mass in the top inches where we place the seed. What you are missing is that with normal plant establishment with some extend of tillage you release with each tillage some N, which we don't have in a No Till approach.
    Fertiling the plant or the soil:
    good question. I was thinking about that as well more than once. Have found on the topic of N that too often far less than 50% of the actual given N was taken up by the plants that year it was applied. To illustrate this I have a excample on wheat yield:
    yield without N: 6 t/ha
    with N +180 kgN/ha: 9 t/ha
    other place:
    without N: 9 t/ha
    with N, over 200 kg/ha: 11 t/ha
    I was in discussion with the farmer of the last farmer, as he does over 3 pases on N application and I asked him: "Which shot did get the increase in yield?"
    Now please the organic farmer will never get the yield where the N wasn't applied.
    the point I want to illustrate is that we have in our system quite some carry over.

    Brodcast before or after seeding:
    first you want to leave the stubble on top and than you bradcast the N? Who do you think is sitting first at the table? It's the microbes which use this N for diggesting the stubble.

    York-Th. Bayer
    Jim - your P's wouldn't be that low surely? way lower than 15 ppm (olsen)?

    If I had the guts (and a yield monitor) this would really have been the year to put no N fertiliser at all on the wheat after spuds and to experiment where the optimum was. But its risky. There is so much work to do on N rates in the future.

  8. #8
    York
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Sorry, it might be not enough straight what I wanted to say. So I will eddit my previous mail.


    Fertilising the plant or the soil:
    good question. I was thinking about that as well more than once. Have found on the topic of N that too often far less than 50% of the actual given N out the bag so to say was taken up by the plants that year it was applied. To illustrate this I have a example on two places with wheat:
    Research farm next to the Baltic See:
    yield without N out of the bag: 6 t/ha
    with N out the bag (over180 kgN/ha): 9 t/ha
    Farm on the iland in the Baltic See
    other place:
    without N out of the bag: 9 t/ha
    with N out of the bag (over 200 kg/ha): 11 t/ha
    My points I'm thinking about:
    - we had such a high "Natural" N in the soil that we did get a high yield without N applied out the bag. The organic farming neighbour does not have this high yields. So where was it from? Maybe a carry over?
    - I discussed this observation with the farmer of the iland. He is having at least 3, but more to 5 times going over with N. Beeing a little "dumm" and thinking: Boy without N out the bag I would have gotten that yield, the yield difference between the both doesn't justify the rate, or does it? Hang on, you only got 2 t/ha higher wield, but spread over 200 kg N/ha?
    So this tow excamples shouldn't be a justification of "we get high yields without N applied", as a organic farmer in the neighbourhoud is not getting this yields, but to think about that we might have some N in our system as a carry over, so to say.

    I hope that it's more clear now.

    York-Th. Bayer

  9. #9
    fred
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    So cut the stubble longer, Nitrogen fertiliser works , do we add a phospahate product or not

    Or do we drill with out N and apply later.

    If we are adding straight N then perhaps i would apply straight to stubbles at a rate of 30 kg/ha , however if we want to apply alittle phospate in the form of DAP then surely it would make sense to apply with drill and cut the rate substantially.

    If we could apply it with the seed in amix this would make alot of sense.

    So can we apply winter osr mixed in with DAP. and if we can how do we add it to fert without a lot of hassle.

  10. #10
    Carpathian Cropper
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Fred.

    Best way looking back on it I ever had of establishing oilseed rape was when Chafer sent the liquid fert and we used to put seed in and put it on via big orifice nozzles. Same a Britsh sugar did with liquid ( fluid ) drilling.

  11. #11
    SimonC
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Had another idea today while going up and down with the fert spreader. For establishing rape in the autumn, spread some N on the straw, then rake a couple of times to shake the fert down onto, (or into the soil depending how aggressive the rake is) and then DD the rape seed through the straw. I know it would still require rain to wash the N in, unlike combi-drilling, but we are pretty dependent on rain anyway to get a decent crop and at least the straw digesting microbes would not get a chance of using it first.

  12. #12
    Top Cat
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    I was on the point of giving up trying to min-till OSR until we put a NPK compound on post harvest pre cultivation, made a huge difference to crop strength. I now don't think we can get rape too strong pre winter so we use 50 kg N pre cultivation. Rape will establish OK but then often sits still without the N, in my experience when the crop looks like it needs N it is too late. I am interested in possibly putting 5 kg N with the front tine of a Claydon as it is cultivating 1" in 12" so a 10% N exactly where the crop needs it might work.

  13. #13
    fred
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    I know this post was started a while ago but since cereals i ahve been thinking.

    Does any one know any thing about umo start/ physio start,? techneat now do hopper to place micro granular fert in with seed .

    Is it a good idea or flash in pan ?

  14. #14
    Top Cat
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Been looking into a custom blend for OSR with 20-10-10+S +avail,boron,zinc,mg. Broadcast on before the Claydon then sow into it. The thought is to give approx 50kg N some P (avail to stop it being locked up and will be all the P it gets). Some K (apparently higher K helps as an antifreeze), boron for OSR, zinc for roots. Gets a little expensive over 20-10-10 but not much more per Ha.

  15. #15
    cozzie
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by fred View Post
    I know this post was started a while ago but since cereals i ahve been thinking.

    Does any one know any thing about umo start/ physio start,? techneat now do hopper to place micro granular fert in with seed .

    Is it a good idea or flash in pan ?
    timac stuff, flash in the pan, will take photos to prove point

  16. #16
    WillScale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Used it on a trial plot this year.

    Not much different but then maybe may historic P levels are high enough. I am coming round to the idea of a little bit of N in with the seed though - will possibly do that next.

  17. #17
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Just got home from the Sulky Agronomy day as Askham Bryant...anybody interested in min-till/no-till ought to have been there...
    From what we were told at the meeting the overall savings/yield benefits that can be made from using the correct starter fertiliser (and we are not talking of MAP/DAP) but a specifically formulated micro-granular product are massive. But not only would you only be applying circa 20kgs/ha (of product) its utilisation is closer to 100%.... than 40% with a conventional fertiliser...

  18. #18
    fred
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Jim

    What product were they talking about.

  19. #19
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by fred View Post
    Jim

    What product were they talking about.
    http://www.agronutrition.com/1-27211...it.php?id=2908

    Its the only info available at present ...if you can find your way through the website there is another product for oilseed rape which looks interesting... Application rate is 15 - 20kgs/ha and a cost in France of Euro 45/ha at 20kgs/ha.

  20. #20
    back'o'beyond
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Bullock View Post
    http://www.agronutrition.com/1-27211...it.php?id=2908

    Its the only info available at present ...if you can find your way through the website there is another product for oilseed rape which looks interesting... Application rate is 15 - 20kgs/ha and a cost in France of Euro 45/ha at 20kgs/ha.
    Jim, I've been thinking a bit about the rates of this stuff, am I right in thinking your on wide rows on your drill? and if I understood correctly the 15-20kg rate is set to get the correct consentration of fert next to the seed. To my mind then say for example:
    15-20kg/ha on 4 inch rows
    = 7.5-10kg/ha on 8 inch rows
    =3.75-5kg/ha on 16 inch rows
    same consentration of fert in each seeded row but much less fert used. Am I making any sense or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? It just seems like you would end up with a lot of fert in one place if you stuck at 15-20kg/ha with wide rows.

  21. #21
    billyboy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    that works out at 1750 per tonne, therefore it is cheaper to apply DAP at 5x rate and get 20% uptake to have same effect and boost indexes for free.

    In my eyes this product only makes sense where P indexes are too high and threaten water quality. It has been developed specifically to achieve good maize establishment and stay within environmental rules

  22. #22
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by back'o'beyond View Post
    Jim, I've been thinking a bit about the rates of this stuff, am I right in thinking your on wide rows on your drill? and if I understood correctly the 15-20kg rate is set to get the correct consentration of fert next to the seed. To my mind then say for example:
    15-20kg/ha on 4 inch rows
    = 7.5-10kg/ha on 8 inch rows
    =3.75-5kg/ha on 16 inch rows
    same consentration of fert in each seeded row but much less fert used. Am I making any sense or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? It just seems like you would end up with a lot of fert in one place if you stuck at 15-20kg/ha with wide rows.
    b'o'b -We felt there were one or two gaps in the presentation on the starter fertilisers..possibly lost in translation. I think the principle you have to grasp is the lack of mobility with some of the essential crop nutrients at a point when the seedling needs it most...this is then exagerated when no-tilling due in some cases to restricted root development.
    The point I was trying to make was that as soil temperature drops in the autumn and particularily phosporus becomes even less available then we need to add more starter fertiliser...perhaps start off at 5 kgs at at 15 C and "up it" to nearer the 15 kgs when soil temps drop back even further..
    (All explained much better on pages 70/71 of the Sulky Min-Till guide)

  23. #23
    Andrew Kerr
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Hi everyone,

    In my experience if you are drilling early into good soil structure then no N is needed to get the rape away,esp if it ,s a hybrid you are growing.Also dont forget many milling wheats grown pre rape may have received foliar N in late June so there is often a degree of residual N around.

    In fact,too much can be detrimental to the crop,encouraging lodging and disease.

    I have found that enforced later drilling in Sept is the best way to justify added N,or maybe the further North one farms,there is also just reason.

    I have applied liquid N at drilling with our Claydon to good effect in later drilling situations,but should point out that broadcasting ahead of drilling can also work well as tine type drills tend to naturally force fert into the seedbed.

    With a Claydon,the ridge effect also means that solid fert applied post drilling also tends to gravitate into the seed zone.


    This year we will be cutting higher,and using a Bullock rake to help alleviate the alleopathic effects of rotting straw.

    No N use is planned unless drilling is delayed. Rape variety is Palmedor,a vigorous HEAR hybrid.

    It seems to me that Techneat have a degree of experience with Umostart ferts,they had a machine at Cereals set up to do it on a Cousins subsoiler.

    Just my opinion, starter fert has a place where indices are low or budget precludes blanket high rate treatments or drilling is delayed.

  24. #24
    back'o'beyond
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Jim, yes I'd forgotten about the temperature aspect probably had information overload at that point!

    Andrew, one of their reasons for starter fert is because their cover cropping has scavenged most of the available soil N by the time they drill the next crop.

    B'o'B

  25. #25
    Andrew Kerr
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by back'o'beyond View Post
    Jim, yes I'd forgotten about the temperature aspect probably had information overload at that point!

    Andrew, one of their reasons for starter fert is because their cover cropping has scavenged most of the available soil N by the time they drill the next crop.

    B'o'B
    Fair enough,

    But here i expect cover cropping is almoist non existent for dd exponents?

  26. #26
    Mr Bean
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    If anyone from Sulky reads this board, thanks for organising such an informative day!

    Quote Originally Posted by back'o'beyond View Post
    Jim, yes I'd forgotten about the temperature aspect probably had information overload at that point!
    I know how you feel B'o'B, simly not possible to remember all that information.

    Jim, I can't remember if this product is safe to mix with the seed? If it is, (I am sure you have already considered this) would it be an idea for someone from the No Till Alliance to approach the company for a few bags to be sent across the channel for some simple small scale trials this autumn?

    Mr Bean.

  27. #27
    Jim_Bullock
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Mr Bean...glad to have got a fix on who you are..
    I was under the impression that you could mix the seed and starter fertilser as it was suggested that we add it to the air-stream on our Kuhn drill..in which case it will go down the same tubes as the seed...

  28. #28
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    I know this is an old thread. I was just wondering if anyone has had positive or negative effects of using starter fert in the last couple of years? The reason is that I have a rep. coming tomorrow to discuss putting a liquid starter kit on our JD750a. A front mounted tank from techneat is what I am looking at and spraying liquid directly behind the seed. The reason I have been thinking about it is after visiting Neil Fuller's stand at cereals and his enthusiam for using certain starters and stating that the potential yield is set for a crop in the first few weeks and we need to get them off to a good start. I was not looking to apply much N, I was more thinking of using biologicals. Spraying Plumbo's biomulch down with the P releasing bugs, maybe some N fixers and mychorizal's if needed. There is some ammonium N in biomulch along with other stuff which should give the plant a good start. The reason I am so interested is that I think I can reduce the amount of biomulch I use now by spraying on the stubbles as I am targetting it to the plant and it is more accurate and save money!! (sorry Robert!). Any thoughts and experiences would be appreciated. I thought it would be also good for getting spring crops off to a flyer. Would also like to see if it can easily be transferred to our claydon.

  29. #29
    kpa
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentish_Andy View Post
    I know this is an old thread. I was just wondering if anyone has had positive or negative effects of using starter fert in the last couple of years? The reason is that I have a rep. coming tomorrow to discuss putting a liquid starter kit on our JD750a. A front mounted tank from techneat is what I am looking at and spraying liquid directly behind the seed. The reason I have been thinking about it is after visiting Neil Fuller's stand at cereals and his enthusiam for using certain starters and stating that the potential yield is set for a crop in the first few weeks and we need to get them off to a good start. I was not looking to apply much N, I was more thinking of using biologicals. Spraying Plumbo's biomulch down with the P releasing bugs, maybe some N fixers and mychorizal's if needed. There is some ammonium N in biomulch along with other stuff which should give the plant a good start. The reason I am so interested is that I think I can reduce the amount of biomulch I use now by spraying on the stubbles as I am targetting it to the plant and it is more accurate and save money!! (sorry Robert!). Any thoughts and experiences would be appreciated. I thought it would be also good for getting spring crops off to a flyer. Would also like to see if it can easily be transferred to our claydon.
    Andy
    I thought that Biomulch was supposed to feed the bugs that breakdown the straw and needs to be put on as soon as possible after the combine. Of course if you remove the straw No food for bugs to make food for worms and plants.

  30. #30
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by kpa View Post
    Andy
    I thought that Biomulch was supposed to feed the bugs that breakdown the straw and needs to be put on as soon as possible after the combine. Of course if you remove the straw No food for bugs to make food for worms and plants.
    I was planning on leaving straw long so not too worried about it for that. I was more interested I'm the phosphate release bugs and the n fixing bugs along with the little liquid n going in with the seed. Along with all the extras I'm there too.

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