Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 58 of 58

Thread: N starter fertilizer

  1. #31
    benferg
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    How much recent trial work has been done (on farm or more scientific replicated plots) around the use of starter N for crops?

    Keep thinking there's a lot of talk pro & against using starter fert/N but not much to back it up. Here in NZ we preach from the converted side but I can't think of any recent trial work to say that it is the right way.

    I always find it interesting that Europe is the only place that people aren't putting fert in with the drill. I like the comment someone said about targeting the plant rather than using a scatter & pray approach.

    Someone made the comment about putting seed & fert together, I've got a couple of guys that spin all their rape seed onto hill paddocks out of a fert spreader with fert at the same time, as long asit's not left in the bin for too long seems to be fine.

  2. #32
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by benferg View Post
    How much recent trial work has been done (on farm or more scientific replicated plots) around the use of starter N for crops?

    Keep thinking there's a lot of talk pro & against using starter fert/N but not much to back it up. Here in NZ we preach from the converted side but I can't think of any recent trial work to say that it is the right way.

    I always find it interesting that Europe is the only place that people aren't putting fert in with the drill. I like the comment someone said about targeting the plant rather than using a scatter & pray approach.

    Someone made the comment about putting seed & fert together, I've got a couple of guys that spin all their rape seed onto hill paddocks out of a fert spreader with fert at the same time, as long asit's not left in the bin for too long seems to be fine.
    Yeah i can't help but feel that there is nothing particularly decisive about with fertiliser at planting. I can see the value of putting p or k with the seed if it reduces rates but does the plant really really require the nutrition at the time - ie is it more visual? And also does the plant really need the N at the time?

    Are we feeding the plant or the soil?

  3. #33
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Am I feeding the plant or the soil? With bio-mulch the answer is both. There is the ammonium N and trace elements which will help the plant straight away and then the bugs, humic acid etc will feed the soil. This is remembering that soil applied fert is consumed first by the bugs which is then released to the plant. The idea of the bugs is that it should mean I need no artificial P and less artificial N and still have a healthy plant and soil. Also it means that as it is going in with the seed I should need less biomulch so there is a financial saving. I was the same as you Will about starter ferts (a bit dubious) until I went to Neil Fullers stand at cereals. This guy has a 1000 replicated trials at his place and he was very much in favour of starters (he could be wrong). I also feel that using the 750a compared to the claydon you are not getting that flush of nutrients due to the tillage and if you get challenging conditions after drilling (for me this is more important than during drilling) the 750a plants are more likely to struggle especially if it turns cold and wet, so hopefully the biomulch will keep the plant growing before winter. I admit Will this is coming from me who has yet to drill an acre with our JD750a and I could be wrong but having seen disc drilling in challenging conditions it seems sensible to me to give the plants more of a chance. I have not ordered the kit as the moment, still trying to assess my options.

  4. #34
    slejpner
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Andy,
    agree with your line of thought, and particularly the 'insurance' aspect of starter fert for when things, particularly post drilling weather, deviate from plan A.

  5. #35
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Hi Andy,

    I wouldn't say that I'm dubious. I don't actually know enough and I'm open minded on it.

    I too have been toying with the idea of putting a bit of solid NPK down with the drill or possibly biomulch if it was cost effective. I'm definitely interested in it all but it just seems hard to know where to put the money if at all.

    I'd agree that it could be cheap insurance though but we still don't really have a handle on what type of nutrient we want for the plant at this stage so it really is unexplored territory. Which is fun....

    Is the 750 new to you? Is it in tip top condition - I have made a few cock ups with drilling and have found it merciless in exposing mistakes if not in very good order.

  6. #36
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Secondhand but done a refurb, going to see Simon's tomorrow so will see what more needs to be done and how to use it properly!

  7. #37
    benferg
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Big difference between my NZ & europe operation is that we are DD brassica into old grass paddocks so the N is there but it might take a while to become available, so applying at drilling speeds the system up.

    I think the answere to starter fert is yes, the key is at what rate of each element. If you are confident that your fert won't get leached away before the plant uses it then it should be a good thing. My brother tells me that brassicas aren't that good at foraging for fert in their early growth stages so that's another reason we think applying start fert is good.

    One of my guys has been trialing applying N 3 weeks prior to spraying out the paddock to encourage growth to get a better spray out also.

  8. #38
    The ruminant
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by benferg View Post
    One of my guys has been trialing applying N 3 weeks prior to spraying out the paddock to encourage growth to get a better spray out also.
    Interesting line of thought - apply the N, get the weeds to act as a quasi-cover crop, then when you kill them off, they provide a slow-release source of the N they captured.

    Win-win?

  9. #39
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Hi Andy,


    Is the 750 new to you? Is it in tip top condition - I have made a few cock ups with drilling and have found it merciless in exposing mistakes if not in very good order.
    I have to agree wholeheartedly with the above

  10. #40
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    an old thread from last year .....just mulling over putting AS down with the seed for OSR ...trouble is the Bertini only has a small seperate fertiliser box ... I suppose I could put the ferts in the seed bit and then the rape in the ferts box ..so long as it was washed out every night should be ok
    anyone tried something similar ?
    and has anyone been using starter ferts this year ? for spring cropping in particular I think its definitely got a place

  11. #41
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    toying with using MAP rather than umostart with cereals and rape.

    Are there any similar (solid) products to UMOSTART more competitively priced?

  12. #42
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    toying with using MAP rather than umostart with cereals and rape.

    Are there any similar (solid) products to UMOSTART more competitively priced?
    York reckons you don't need MAP or DAP just AS as we're just looking to acidify the rooting zone not actually feed the plant
    Umostart just seems too expensive..I'm wondering how low a rate of straight AS would be enough to be effective ?

  13. #43
    yelrabtaehw
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    We have a slug pellet thing in our Amazone primera which we use for rape and put fert in seed box.Works well.
    Sometimes reverse the situation to put a little AN down with cereals too.

  14. #44
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by yelrabtaehw View Post
    We have a slug pellet thing in our Amazone primera which we use for rape and put fert in seed box.Works well.
    Sometimes reverse the situation to put a little AN down with cereals too.
    how do you load the box with AN ...use a bucket out of a big bag ?

  15. #45
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    interesting i would have thought phosphate was as important in a starter, especially after seeing purple rape vs green rape in a sewage sludge trial.

    are there any links to the opinions on AS?

  16. #46
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    not directly about not needing MAP or DAP but interesting nontheless

    http://www.australianoilseeds.com/__...S6-P8-Khan.pdf

  17. #47
    yelrabtaehw
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Fill box with bucket out of bag,doesn't take long,not putting much on for cereals.Got high P soils so don't worry about P too much.

  18. #48
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    thanks for that ..so roughly how much can you put on per Ha like that ?

  19. #49
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Pedders,

    What you need is the big bag spout from Spaldings to unload your fert into the hopper and then you can put a half bag on.

    I think York is right on AS essentially its only as a pop up rather than a yield effector. So even 15 units in the row may be enough.

    I tried it last year with a compound and then had a shower of rain and whole thing clogged because of humidity and then the chain on the drill snapped. So I didn't put any in the row this spring but regret it now. I think Spring may be more important than winter for the reasons on pop up only anyway.

    I will try to source some good AS or AN and have another go this year but not for wheat which can have something broadcast if it needs it.

    Actually just remembered I've got some fodder forages to grow so I could put it on in that in the next month. Will take some photos.

    End of sermon

  20. #50
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    interesting i would have thought phosphate was as important in a starter, especially after seeing purple rape vs green rape in a sewage sludge trial.

    are there any links to the opinions on AS?
    I can't remember where I read it but did read some stuff (it could have been on newagtalk) about how if the plant has the N (or AS) then it is more efficient at finding the P. So if the P is in the soil and is available then maybe the extra N assists the plant in doing so - because as ever its a biological process that allows the plant to get the nutrients and Leibig's barrel etc. would surely point to an N deficiency rather than a P one in the soil solution if the tests say P is there?

    does that make any sense? To me it seems to make more sense than putting down P if the soil has it especially as so many trials on specialist starter fertilisers are inconclusive.

  21. #51
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    will
    I think you're right about the AS helping the root extract the P that is already there ..I think some of the work on MAP and DAP has come out of Australia where the soils are low in P so therefore it has more of an effect

    my problem is the ferts box is tiny on the Bertini compared to the grains box ...unfortunately its one of the grain only ones...seems like all the new ones ex Argentina are grain and fert where there is an equal sized box for each

    nothing is ever simple is it .....

  22. #52
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    P availability is biological so I am going down that route if P needed. I think putting much with drill could be a waste of time. Speaking with Frederic Thomas yesterday, he has found that applying N with OSR gives you a poorer tap root with more fangs. He reckoned we should all be trying companion cropping with OSR.

  23. #53
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentish_Andy View Post
    P availability is biological so I am going down that route if P needed. I think putting much with drill could be a waste of time. Speaking with Frederic Thomas yesterday, he has found that applying N with OSR gives you a poorer tap root with more fangs. He reckoned we should all be trying companion cropping with OSR.

    yeah p and n deficiency symptoms seem to overlap somewhat so can see what your saying. and purpling is often temperory until soils warm up.

    but with slugs a concern, good establishment is more than cosmetic.
    I feel rooting this year has been better with no till, but its easy to confuse compaction with lack of mineralisation, hence im looking at the starters.
    i don't think i have the biology in years 1 and 2!!

    looking at a couple of low salt starters which will minimize seedling damage but still have some available N. What starters is frederik using, seem to remeber he had some organic ones aswell?

  24. #54
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentish_Andy View Post
    P availability is biological so I am going down that route if P needed. I think putting much with drill could be a waste of time. Speaking with Frederic Thomas yesterday, he has found that applying N with OSR gives you a poorer tap root with more fangs. He reckoned we should all be trying companion cropping with OSR.
    I'm listening. What companion would you use?

  25. #55
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    I'm listening. What companion would you use?
    Will, there is no easy answer to that question. Your mix would probably be different to mine due to geographic and climatic location. Speaking to the 54 French farmers yesterday they seem to have different ideas and mixes. There is basically no right answer and it is trial and error. My local seed guy is doing up a trial mix to try this year no final recipe yet. Plants included can be lentils, beans, fenugreek, clovers. Apparently a four way mix at least is best.

  26. #56
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    yeah p and n deficiency symptoms seem to overlap somewhat so can see what your saying. and purpling is often temperory until soils warm up.

    but with slugs a concern, good establishment is more than cosmetic.
    I feel rooting this year has been better with no till, but its easy to confuse compaction with lack of mineralisation, hence im looking at the starters.
    i don't think i have the biology in years 1 and 2!!

    looking at a couple of low salt starters which will minimize seedling damage but still have some available N. What starters is frederik using, seem to remeber he had some organic ones aswell?
    I did not get to speak that long with him so do not know if he is using starters for rape. I am looking at starters too but not sure what to put in it yet. Probably a little N but rest will be S, trace nutrients and biologicals. Not sure though

  27. #57
    ranterrob
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    is it possible to turn solid dap or map into liquid to put into seed bed, can get small quatities of solid at realistic price but don't need enough to be worth setting up to buy liquid and don't know anyone close using liquid ti buy from ( if that is legal anyway )

  28. #58
    martian
    Guest

    Re: N starter fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    I'm listening. What companion would you use?
    Will

    I can't find the link, but Hutchinsons are selling a three way mix of frost susceptible vetches and clover which they are sourcing from France at a very reasonable (!) 50/ha, iirc. The spiel suggests you get a benefit of 2.50 for every 1 you spend on seed (natch).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •