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  1. #1
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    any ideas

    At the moment we can't find anything obviously wrong with soil test has anyone had a crop fail like it and if so what caused it.

  2. #2
    farmersteve
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Have had patches appear similar to that, but nothing on that scale. It was Mangenese deficency, we didn't get the mangenese spray put on in autumn and it got left till the spring.. by then patches had appeared that look just like yours,

  3. #3
    Spud
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Has it been sown with spring seed (as opposed to winter) and seen a frost? Was the seedbed fluffy? mn def certainly a possibility.

  4. #4
    slejpner
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    about to suggest manganese.

    Had an acre lost like this, about this time of year, in the corner of a sandy loam field lacking in OM and structure generally.
    Albrecht soil test showed 0.1ppm (ie about zero) COPPER.
    Where 5ppm is ideal, and below 2ppm dangerous for wheat...for this soil test lab.

    Tissue test plants adjacent to dead ones?
    Spray Mn/Cu anyway?

  5. #5
    recycled
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    seen it round here , usually caused by being under water for a few weeks

  6. #6
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by slejpner View Post
    about to suggest manganese.

    Had an acre lost like this, about this time of year, in the corner of a sandy loam field lacking in OM and structure generally.
    Albrecht soil test showed 0.1ppm (ie about zero) COPPER.
    Where 5ppm is ideal, and below 2ppm dangerous for wheat...for this soil test lab.

    Tissue test plants adjacent to dead ones?
    Spray Mn/Cu anyway?
    Its had plenty of Mn as we always suffer will look at the copper and yes I think you are right about testing the better plants.
    It has being sprayed with Atlantis in november, could that damage any plant under stress.

  7. #7
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    If you find the answer we would be very interested to know.

    We have had it like your photos on underconsolidated ploughed light dry sand after either long grass ley or arable, despite a couple of autumn applications of manganese and manganese dressed seed. (Underconsolidated because too dry and loose to consolidate it even when rolled).

    We have seen this kind of thing without any application of autumn herbicide so we ruled that out.

    High pH seems to make it worse - locking up what little manganese might be available?

    Direct drilling into unloosened soil seems to have helped but there is still time for ours to yellow off.

    Sometimes think that loosened sand, and a bit of leaching just leaves insufficient Mn and N in the soil to sustain the plant. A small dose of autumn N and S (perhaps down the drill tube) would perhaps help (both for delivery of N and S and for root zone acidification to free up managanese) but we can't do that in England.

    Another theory - loosening of the soil introduces a lot of oxygen, speeds up the rate of soil bacteria (particularly where high OM) which competes with the plants for the managanese.

    Strangely have also seen same symptoms in the crop just after emergence round the site of a heap of horse manure??

    Never really got conclusively to the bottom of it but think avoidance of loosening, and application of autumn N and S could be key.

  8. #8
    CORK
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Skimmer,

    Can you tell us a bit about the crop in question pls? is it wheat?

    What was the last crop, how was it established etc?

    From the first pic, there seems to be a bit of a pattern running with the rows - one or two green strips in the distance and a wide green strip off to the right.

    Stripes like this lead me to wonder is it chemical - something in the tank that shouldnt be there or something to do with lack of consolidation where no wheelings exist?

    Dont think the UK has had cold enough weather to cause any frost damage this year.

    Is there a history of any deficiencies in this soil? is the pH ok? Ive never seen Manganese deficiency cause this level of damage to be honest.

    C

  9. #9
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CORK View Post
    Skimmer,

    Can you tell us a bit about the crop in question pls? is it wheat?

    What was the last crop, how was it established etc?

    From the first pic, there seems to be a bit of a pattern running with the rows - one or two green strips in the distance and a wide green strip off to the right.

    Stripes like this lead me to wonder is it chemical - something in the tank that shouldnt be there or something to do with lack of consolidation where no wheelings exist?

    Dont think the UK has had cold enough weather to cause any frost damage this year.

    Is there a history of any deficiencies in this soil? is the pH ok? Ive never seen Manganese deficiency cause this level of damage to be honest.

    C
    Cordial wheat , different fields,One ploughed power harrowed drilled rolled,one
    subsoiled drilled and the other done with a tri till, ph ok always spray well for
    mn PK ok wondering if atlantis has anything to do with it. Looks like to cut losses and redrill with spring wheat but I don't want to through good money after bad.
    Mark

  10. #10
    Against_the_grain
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Residual chem left over from previous year and badly/unevenly cultivated ploughed?

  11. #11
    The Shootist
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Had a field sprayed with Hatra and Pico Pro and the crop was hammered almost to destruction where overlap occured. The variety is Warrior following peas and it is now recovering but it looked touch and go for odd places for a few weeks. I believe Atlantis/ Hatra is a very severe chemical and I sometimes wonder if it does more harm than a small or moderate infestation of blackgrass.

  12. #12
    farmerphilly
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Chlortoluron??

  13. #13
    gone up the hill
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Cordial wheat , different fields,One ploughed power harrowed drilled rolled,one
    subsoiled drilled and the other done with a tri till, ph ok always spray well for
    mn PK ok wondering if atlantis has anything to do with it. Looks like to cut losses and redrill with spring wheat but I don't want to through good money after bad.
    Mark
    Is it all home or bought in seed???

  14. #14
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by gone up the hill View Post
    Is it all home or bought in seed???
    Bought in

  15. #15
    woodywellingtons
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Dosn't look like 2 of your pictures have been sprayed with Atlantis-there is vol osr still alive?
    Have you just rolled picture one?
    Did it have an autumn insecticide?
    I've seen a small early drilled field of cordialle lost through very serious mildew infection.

  16. #16
    Yorkie3
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Cordial wheat , different fields,One ploughed power harrowed drilled rolled,one
    subsoiled drilled and the other done with a tri till, ph ok always spray well for
    mn PK ok wondering if atlantis has anything to do with it. Looks like to cut losses and redrill with spring wheat but I don't want to through good money after bad.
    Mark
    hi skimmer hate changing thread subject , but is it a philip watkins tri till and if so how do you rate it ?
    Thanks y3

  17. #17
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie3 View Post
    hi skimmer hate changing thread subject , but is it a philip watkins tri till and if so how do you rate it ?
    Thanks y3
    I only had it for a couple of days on demo but it seemed to do a good job. 2.4 metre behind a NH 6050, took it ok with legs down to 16" but would certainly want a bigger tractor if I was buying one.
    I opted for a new plough in the end.

  18. #18
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Its looking like sulphur deficiency.

  19. #19
    TAG Direct
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.

  20. #20
    andy26
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    +1

  21. #21
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    We have had the same type and scale of damage without any autumn herbicide.

    We have found manganese alone to be futile, both as seed treatment and foliar application.

  22. #22
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    As already said the problem is in fields sprayed with Atlantis,Mn is a big problem on this land and is applied as part of our spray routine.
    Sulphur is the only common factor on soil and tissue samples off any poor area's although P is short on one and K & B on another. Any help or idea's will be apprecciated as we really do need to find the problem.

    Mark

  23. #23
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    Latest more in depth soil tests have come back showing a Cation exchange capacity of 4.9,and a high magnesium level possibly locking up the potash causing the plants to take in salt.

  24. #24
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Finally found the problem, Root knot nematode.How deal with it is now the problem.

  25. #25
    Col
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Finally found the problem, Root knot nematode.How deal with it is now the problem.
    No way of dealing with it I'm afraid, get it quite a lot on light areas, only thing to do is get roots growing well in the autumn, make sure nutrition is spot on, maybe try spring crops, the other suggestion was long term grass

  26. #26
    kpa
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Finally found the problem, Root knot nematode.How deal with it is now the problem.
    Have you have a tissue test? Don Huber in Mineral Nutrition & Plant Disease mentions low Silicon and low K as predisposing factors for the disease in rice or its roots with high Si had increased resistance it. Can't say we've knowingly had it
    Potassium silicate comes to mind, probably expensive.

  27. #27
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Its looking like sulphur deficiency.
    Jogged my memory. A couple of years ago we soil-sampled affected and non affected areas and found only common factor on affected areas was very low sulphur levels - tended to be light soils. The next autumn we put some sulphate on the light land and had healthy plants right through but issue was clouded by switch to DD and very hard winter so it was not a proper trial as such.

    I'd say you are onto it. I think the sulphur problem has crept up on the experts and they are not really aware of how serious it has become, as power stations have cleaned up their emissions.

  28. #28
    andy26
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Sulphur deficiency in Wheat usually first shows up as paling of the leaves a bit like the crop is lacking N (assuming it isn't).

    I have no doubt that a soil tests may of shown insufficient levels of S, but with other variables e.g. herbicides and no control plot to measure against...

    But being on Sandy soils, Sulphur deficiency is more likely than any other soil type.

  29. #29
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    I think both N and S defficiency in the autumn on sands for winter cereals in England are a bigger problem than people realise.

    A proper trial is needed with control plot etc. Not as easy as it sounds for us with so many variables, patchy soil types, rotations, cultivations etc.

    I'll leave it at that as that is all I know.

  30. #30
    Mr Bean
    Guest

    Re: any ideas



    This picture was taken last February. A leaf tissue test was sent off and then the area immediately sprayed with manganese. The spray made no difference and the leaf tissue test came back low in manganese and magnesium. After advice from Plumbo, I gave it a dose of phosphite, manganese & magnesium. There was an almost immediate response, but a second dose was needed later on. What ever the problem, I think a bit of phosphite in the mix can give the plant a useful kick.

    The field was wheat, direct drilled into OSR stubble, on light land. If you look carefully, the drill tractor wheelings can be seen, and also the combine wheelings running at a diagonal to the drilling. The black lump in the picture is top dressed compost!

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