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Thread: any ideas

  1. #1
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    any ideas

    At the moment we can't find anything obviously wrong with soil test has anyone had a crop fail like it and if so what caused it.

  2. #2
    farmersteve
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Have had patches appear similar to that, but nothing on that scale. It was Mangenese deficency, we didn't get the mangenese spray put on in autumn and it got left till the spring.. by then patches had appeared that look just like yours,

  3. #3
    Spud
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Has it been sown with spring seed (as opposed to winter) and seen a frost? Was the seedbed fluffy? mn def certainly a possibility.

  4. #4
    slejpner
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    about to suggest manganese.

    Had an acre lost like this, about this time of year, in the corner of a sandy loam field lacking in OM and structure generally.
    Albrecht soil test showed 0.1ppm (ie about zero) COPPER.
    Where 5ppm is ideal, and below 2ppm dangerous for wheat...for this soil test lab.

    Tissue test plants adjacent to dead ones?
    Spray Mn/Cu anyway?

  5. #5
    recycled
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    seen it round here , usually caused by being under water for a few weeks

  6. #6
    CORK
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Skimmer,

    Can you tell us a bit about the crop in question pls? is it wheat?

    What was the last crop, how was it established etc?

    From the first pic, there seems to be a bit of a pattern running with the rows - one or two green strips in the distance and a wide green strip off to the right.

    Stripes like this lead me to wonder is it chemical - something in the tank that shouldnt be there or something to do with lack of consolidation where no wheelings exist?

    Dont think the UK has had cold enough weather to cause any frost damage this year.

    Is there a history of any deficiencies in this soil? is the pH ok? Ive never seen Manganese deficiency cause this level of damage to be honest.

    C

  7. #7
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by slejpner View Post
    about to suggest manganese.

    Had an acre lost like this, about this time of year, in the corner of a sandy loam field lacking in OM and structure generally.
    Albrecht soil test showed 0.1ppm (ie about zero) COPPER.
    Where 5ppm is ideal, and below 2ppm dangerous for wheat...for this soil test lab.

    Tissue test plants adjacent to dead ones?
    Spray Mn/Cu anyway?
    Its had plenty of Mn as we always suffer will look at the copper and yes I think you are right about testing the better plants.
    It has being sprayed with Atlantis in november, could that damage any plant under stress.

  8. #8
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CORK View Post
    Skimmer,

    Can you tell us a bit about the crop in question pls? is it wheat?

    What was the last crop, how was it established etc?

    From the first pic, there seems to be a bit of a pattern running with the rows - one or two green strips in the distance and a wide green strip off to the right.

    Stripes like this lead me to wonder is it chemical - something in the tank that shouldnt be there or something to do with lack of consolidation where no wheelings exist?

    Dont think the UK has had cold enough weather to cause any frost damage this year.

    Is there a history of any deficiencies in this soil? is the pH ok? Ive never seen Manganese deficiency cause this level of damage to be honest.

    C
    Cordial wheat , different fields,One ploughed power harrowed drilled rolled,one
    subsoiled drilled and the other done with a tri till, ph ok always spray well for
    mn PK ok wondering if atlantis has anything to do with it. Looks like to cut losses and redrill with spring wheat but I don't want to through good money after bad.
    Mark

  9. #9
    Against_the_grain
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Residual chem left over from previous year and badly/unevenly cultivated ploughed?

  10. #10
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    If you find the answer we would be very interested to know.

    We have had it like your photos on underconsolidated ploughed light dry sand after either long grass ley or arable, despite a couple of autumn applications of manganese and manganese dressed seed. (Underconsolidated because too dry and loose to consolidate it even when rolled).

    We have seen this kind of thing without any application of autumn herbicide so we ruled that out.

    High pH seems to make it worse - locking up what little manganese might be available?

    Direct drilling into unloosened soil seems to have helped but there is still time for ours to yellow off.

    Sometimes think that loosened sand, and a bit of leaching just leaves insufficient Mn and N in the soil to sustain the plant. A small dose of autumn N and S (perhaps down the drill tube) would perhaps help (both for delivery of N and S and for root zone acidification to free up managanese) but we can't do that in England.

    Another theory - loosening of the soil introduces a lot of oxygen, speeds up the rate of soil bacteria (particularly where high OM) which competes with the plants for the managanese.

    Strangely have also seen same symptoms in the crop just after emergence round the site of a heap of horse manure??

    Never really got conclusively to the bottom of it but think avoidance of loosening, and application of autumn N and S could be key.

  11. #11
    The Shootist
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Had a field sprayed with Hatra and Pico Pro and the crop was hammered almost to destruction where overlap occured. The variety is Warrior following peas and it is now recovering but it looked touch and go for odd places for a few weeks. I believe Atlantis/ Hatra is a very severe chemical and I sometimes wonder if it does more harm than a small or moderate infestation of blackgrass.

  12. #12
    farmerphilly
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Chlortoluron??

  13. #13
    gone up the hill
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Cordial wheat , different fields,One ploughed power harrowed drilled rolled,one
    subsoiled drilled and the other done with a tri till, ph ok always spray well for
    mn PK ok wondering if atlantis has anything to do with it. Looks like to cut losses and redrill with spring wheat but I don't want to through good money after bad.
    Mark
    Is it all home or bought in seed???

  14. #14
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by gone up the hill View Post
    Is it all home or bought in seed???
    Bought in

  15. #15
    woodywellingtons
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Dosn't look like 2 of your pictures have been sprayed with Atlantis-there is vol osr still alive?
    Have you just rolled picture one?
    Did it have an autumn insecticide?
    I've seen a small early drilled field of cordialle lost through very serious mildew infection.

  16. #16
    yellow belly
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    if all the boundarys of damaged/undamaged parts are in line with tramlines with non crossing at an angle then it is most likely spray damage

    i have had spring antlantis do somthing similar when done during frosty weather

    most likely a combination of antlantis ,big temp variation ,fast growing crop and other unidentifiable factors

    the wheat can get a higher dose of spray if it is upright and the drift hits it from the side (spraying when it is nearly too windy , turbulance from the wind direction /sprayer speed /direction of travel )

  17. #17
    mbsrhol
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Looks like Mn, soft black sand field near me suddenly went limp and pale, got sprayed and improved, now 2 weeks later it is nearly as bad again

  18. #18
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by woodywellingtons View Post
    Dosn't look like 2 of your pictures have been sprayed with Atlantis-there is vol osr still alive?
    Have you just rolled picture one?
    Did it have an autumn insecticide?
    I've seen a small early drilled field of cordialle lost through very serious mildew infection.
    Nettles
    yes
    permisect
    No mildew

  19. #19
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow belly View Post
    if all the boundarys of damaged/undamaged parts are in line with tramlines with non crossing at an angle then it is most likely spray damage

    i have had spring antlantis do somthing similar when done during frosty weather

    most likely a combination of antlantis ,big temp variation ,fast growing crop and other unidentifiable factors

    the wheat can get a higher dose of spray if it is upright and the drift hits it from the side (spraying when it is nearly too windy , turbulance from the wind direction /sprayer speed /direction of travel )
    You are proberly right its the unidentifiable factors we are struggling with
    its in 4 different fields worked in different ways 2 second wheats one after grass and one after carrots,the later wheats on other fields look ok and have not being sprayed with atlantis.

  20. #20
    JCA
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Could it be nematodes feeding on the roots? With the drier milder winter they could still be active but plant roots not regenerating quick enough to feed the crop.

  21. #21
    drifter
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Once had a field of Soisson like that, late drilled after spuds then sprayed 7lts/ha chlorotoluron total wipeout!

  22. #22
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by JCA View Post
    Could it be nematodes feeding on the roots? With the drier milder winter they could still be active but plant roots not regenerating quick enough to feed the crop.
    don't think so but we are looking at all the options and any idea's and advice is more than welcome.
    All our fields are tested every year and no argonomist's seem to have the answer.

  23. #23
    moldengineer
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Had similar last year and put it down to either wheat bulb fly. Was on very light land drilled relatively late with a Vaderstad and not rolled. Only seemed to affect the light area of the field, the heavier land looked fine. All late drilled seed now has appropriate seed treatment as we always did several years ago.

  24. #24
    SKIMMER
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Its looking like sulphur deficiency.

  25. #25
    TAG Direct
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.

  26. #26
    andy26
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    +1

  27. #27
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIMMER View Post
    Its looking like sulphur deficiency.
    Jogged my memory. A couple of years ago we soil-sampled affected and non affected areas and found only common factor on affected areas was very low sulphur levels - tended to be light soils. The next autumn we put some sulphate on the light land and had healthy plants right through but issue was clouded by switch to DD and very hard winter so it was not a proper trial as such.

    I'd say you are onto it. I think the sulphur problem has crept up on the experts and they are not really aware of how serious it has become, as power stations have cleaned up their emissions.

  28. #28
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TAG Direct View Post
    No way, not in isolation. Possibly several factors (herbicide damage, sulphur deficiency and Mn deficiency) all exacerbating each other.
    We have had the same type and scale of damage without any autumn herbicide.

    We have found manganese alone to be futile, both as seed treatment and foliar application.

  29. #29
    andy26
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    Sulphur deficiency in Wheat usually first shows up as paling of the leaves a bit like the crop is lacking N (assuming it isn't).

    I have no doubt that a soil tests may of shown insufficient levels of S, but with other variables e.g. herbicides and no control plot to measure against...

    But being on Sandy soils, Sulphur deficiency is more likely than any other soil type.

  30. #30
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: any ideas

    I think both N and S defficiency in the autumn on sands for winter cereals in England are a bigger problem than people realise.

    A proper trial is needed with control plot etc. Not as easy as it sounds for us with so many variables, patchy soil types, rotations, cultivations etc.

    I'll leave it at that as that is all I know.

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