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Thread: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

  1. #1
    marco
    Guest

    sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    I was wondering would it be possible to have a sticky of peoples rotations and what they have tried re cropping? what challenges they have met and how they got around or avoided any problems they have encountered.

    I.E earlier sowing in autumn and later in spring.

    have you done field scale trials? what were the results good and bad.

    have you tried unconventional rotations like peas wheat beans wheat to cut your farm nitrogen use in half?

  2. #2
    martian
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Well I don't know Marco, I thought this was a good idea...It's a crucial part of what makes dd work and it'd be very interesting to hear what works for different people.

  3. #3
    slejpner
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Cropping as much as possible....
    If you can manage the weeds, and your land suits it, nothing wrong with OSR/WW/WW.
    Will be top for revenue short/medium term. Maybe long-term also
    Will accumulate soil OM as fast as most other options.

    If spring cropping, you got to run good autumn cover crop.
    I understand that now.

    ELS overwintered stubble is an affront to common-sense, and a disaster for soil biology.
    I have no idea how it got in the book, but i blame the RSPB.
    As for me signing up for 10ha of it, no one to blame but myself.
    That nonsense has now stopped.

  4. #4
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by slejpner View Post
    ELS overwintered stubble is an affront to common-sense, and a disaster for soil biology.
    I have no idea how it got in the book, but i blame the RSPB.
    As for me signing up for 10ha of it, no one to blame but myself.
    That nonsense has now stopped.
    +1 Won't be doing them when I renew either... Never see many birds on them as stubbles are too clean. Winter cover crops option surely better except you're not allowed them on all soil types...

  5. #5
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by slejpner View Post
    Cropping as much as possible....
    If you can manage the weeds, and your land suits it, nothing wrong with OSR/WW/WW.
    Will be top for revenue short/medium term. Maybe long-term also
    Will accumulate soil OM as fast as most other options.

    big "if" tho (suits your land) with constant slugs of nitrogen each spring and osr in autumn?
    one reason, amongst others, that legumes leave such mellow seedbeds for cereal entry is the lack of n used?

    WB>OSR>WW>COVERCROP>SPRING BEANS>WW? I wonder how many times that will change in 5 years!

  6. #6
    martian
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    big "if" tho (suits your land) with constant slugs of nitrogen each spring and osr in autumn?
    one reason, amongst others, that legumes leave such mellow seedbeds for cereal entry is the lack of n used?

    WB>OSR>WW>COVERCROP>SPRING BEANS>WW? I wonder how many times that will change in 5 years!
    I was thinking along similar lines, except with SB rather than WB and an extra cover crop in between. I'd be nervous of those wheat volunteers in the WB. I am hoping that, as Dwayne Beck avers, that the global Gross Margin would be similar to WW/WW/OSR, as we'll slash our variable costs. Any thoughts?

  7. #7
    marco
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    All i know is wb must be sown early to mid sept in ireland. I got a reasonable strike and emergence on the land that was baled and cleared, but it's a disaster on the ground with chopped straw.


    1 slot not closed properly closed by john deere closing wheel, I've just got a set of guttlers so i hope this cures the problem.

    2also seeding dept, what dept do most here sow cereals in winter?

    looking back i might have sown a little too deep.

    3end of sept sowing.

    4It turned wet straight after sowing also, so these 4 problems counted against the crop.
    I'm unsure but might spray it off and sow peas or maybe beans as the roatation so far in this field was sw ww wosr ww and now wb. so might be no harm going with a legume.

    thoughts please.

  8. #8
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by marco View Post
    All i know is wb must be sown early to mid sept in ireland. I got a reasonable strike and emergence on the land that was baled and cleared, but it's a disaster on the ground with chopped straw.


    1 slot not closed properly closed by john deere closing wheel, I've just got a set of guttlers so i hope this cures the problem.

    2also seeding dept, what dept do most here sow cereals in winter?

    looking back i might have sown a little too deep.

    3end of sept sowing.

    4It turned wet straight after sowing also, so these 4 problems counted against the crop.
    I'm unsure but might spray it off and sow peas or maybe beans as the roatation so far in this field was sw ww wosr ww and now wb. so might be no harm going with a legume.

    thoughts please.
    1. closing wheel is vital -absolutely vital. Its a waste of money on seed if nothing else and thats not cheap nowadays.

    2. where the moisture is really.

    3. nothing wrong with end sept sowing but remember this is your first year. Lots of experimenting to do before you get good at it.

    WB can do well in DD because I've done it. 3.5t acre second cereal from a late sept sowing on a soil which was 5 years no till. I have some WB fields this year which are looking a lot poorer and a bit sad but equally its only second year no till (after spuds) which is the most challenging.

    Anything is possible in this game of biological chess Marco!

  9. #9
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by marco View Post
    All i know is wb must be sown early to mid sept in ireland. I got a reasonable strike and emergence on the land that was baled and cleared, but it's a disaster on the ground with chopped straw.


    1 slot not closed properly closed by john deere closing wheel, I've just got a set of guttlers so i hope this cures the problem.

    2also seeding dept, what dept do most here sow cereals in winter?

    looking back i might have sown a little too deep.

    3end of sept sowing.

    4It turned wet straight after sowing also, so these 4 problems counted against the crop.
    I'm unsure but might spray it off and sow peas or maybe beans as the roatation so far in this field was sw ww wosr ww and now wb. so might be no harm going with a legume.

    thoughts please.
    Look at the reason why It is difficult to close the slot with a Jd750, it is because the depth wheel compacts the soil beside the disc which then makes it more difficult to close the slot. The best and cheapest cure for this is to fit wheel made by MARTIN in the USA . We have fitted then and get a much better germination as the soil around the is not compacted at all.

    If you need more info please call me.

    James

  10. #10
    marco
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by james lloyd View Post
    Look at the reason why It is difficult to close the slot with a Jd750, it is because the depth wheel compacts the soil beside the disc which then makes it more difficult to close the slot. The best and cheapest cure for this is to fit wheel made by MARTIN in the USA . We have fitted then and get a much better germination as the soil around the is not compacted at all.

    If you need more info please call me.

    James
    Thanks james, i have just got a set of guttler closing wheels from Geoffrey Wox a few weeks ago so this should sort out some if not all of my problems.

    http://guttlerrollers.co.uk/guttler-...sing-ring.aspx

    thanks again.

  11. #11
    martian
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by james lloyd View Post
    Look at the reason why It is difficult to close the slot with a Jd750, it is because the depth wheel compacts the soil beside the disc which then makes it more difficult to close the slot. The best and cheapest cure for this is to fit wheel made by MARTIN in the USA . We have fitted then and get a much better germination as the soil around the is not compacted at all.

    If you need more info please call me.

    James
    James
    are you talking about the spading star-shaped slot closing wheel that fingers the soil round the seed or the reduced width depth wheel, which looks like it would compact the soil even more (though Martins maintain that it does the opposite)?

    There seem to be any number of different star closing wheels on the market including hard non-stick plastic ones, what made you choose Martins?
    Martian (no relation)

  12. #12
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    new policy here to get away from OSR/WW at last !

    OSR/WW/(covercrop)WOATS or SPeas/WW - on light sandy land

    OSR/WW/Potatoes/WW/OSR/WW/(cover crop)SPeas/WW/OSR/Potatoes/WW - irrigated spud land

    OSR/WW/(cover crop)SBeans/WW -on medium loams and heavier ground

    any spring crop and winter oats have a cover crop of mustard before them to increase OM

  13. #13
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by martian View Post
    James
    are you talking about the spading star-shaped slot closing wheel that fingers the soil round the seed or the reduced width depth wheel, which looks like it would compact the soil even more (though Martins maintain that it does the opposite)?

    There seem to be any number of different star closing wheels on the market including hard non-stick plastic ones, what made you choose Martins?
    Martian (no relation)
    Sorry for not being more specific, I am talking about the depth wheels that have all of the pressure on the outside edge of the wheel thus causing no compaction 2cm from the slot thus the soil beside the slot closes much easier. I use it on the 750 in the autum and then I mount them onto a maize seeder in the spring.we get a much better emergence ESP in maize as there is zero compaction around seed and when working on slopes the seed is covered much better as the closing wheels are much more efficient. An example of how much less the soil is compacted is that we have make the shoe (on the maize drill as will culivate this ground) on the drill 5cm longer to allow time for the grain to drop otherwise the soil around the slot will fall in and we will get an un even seed depth.

  14. #14
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    new policy here to get away from OSR/WW at last !

    OSR/WW/(covercrop)WOATS or SPeas/WW - on light sandy land

    OSR/WW/Potatoes/WW/OSR/WW/(cover crop)SPeas/WW/OSR/Potatoes/WW - irrigated spud land

    OSR/WW/(cover crop)SBeans/WW -on medium loams and heavier ground

    any spring crop and winter oats have a cover crop of mustard before them to increase OM
    On the spud ground I don't know if I'd bother cover cropping so much. Spuds pretty much buggers everything up anyway.

    Also would go for a pedders mix rather than straight mustard - will bring more to the party.

  15. #15
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Will any idea of cost..Mustard v Pedders mix..?

  16. #16
    REW
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    new policy here to get away from OSR/WW at last !

    OSR/WW/(covercrop)WOATS or SPeas/WW - on light sandy land

    OSR/WW/Potatoes/WW/OSR/WW/(cover crop)SPeas/WW/OSR/Potatoes/WW - irrigated spud land

    OSR/WW/(cover crop)SBeans/WW -on medium loams and heavier ground

    any spring crop and winter oats have a cover crop of mustard before them to increase OM
    That was my thinking on our heavier ground tried S Beans 2 years ago a job to make them pay anything like WW and OSR. I am going to give it another go to benefit the whole rotation.

  17. #17
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    I have some numbers for mustard in the office I will look out tomorrow - is v cheap and gets a lot of OM very fast

    Frost kills it instantly though so best in a nice warm autumn

  18. #18
    Andrew Kerr
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    How are you establishing the mustard Clive?

  19. #19
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    7kg / Ha of mustard costs cost 2/kg

    we just Terracast it of the back of discs and then roll

    drill will work direct into that usually

  20. #20
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    On the spud ground I don't know if I'd bother cover cropping so much. Spuds pretty much buggers everything up anyway.

    Also would go for a pedders mix rather than straight mustard - will bring more to the party.
    lot of research suggesting white mustard helps reduce nematode populations so maybe a different reason for doing it on spud ground ??

  21. #21
    Mayo
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Clive, you are going away from WW/WOSR because of the SFP compliance issue? I thought this was the most profitable rotation for you, or is it the increased area and you need a spread of crops etc?

  22. #22
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    lot of research suggesting white mustard helps reduce nematode populations so maybe a different reason for doing it on spud ground ??
    Yes don't disagree with that.

  23. #23
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayo View Post
    Clive, you are going away from WW/WOSR because of the SFP compliance issue? I thought this was the most profitable rotation for you, or is it the increased area and you need a spread of crops etc?
    no, going away from it purely because I'm watching OSR yields decline every year the last 5 years here while at the same time weeds seem to get harder and harder to control (we have gone from being able to not spray herbicides at all 15years ago to needing the kitchen sink throwing at it an still getting messy crops today)

    I have had a big rethink on the way we farm the over the last 6months and have decided I want to farm in a more sustainable way, improve my soils and reduce our dependence upon bought in soluble fert, a "proper" rotation rather than one based around crop gross margins is the first step and probably most important step towards that

    Don't get me wrong, we have been farming very well and quite successfully and appropriately for the crop prices / land rents etc we are subject to but I think to be as successful over the next couple of decades will require a different approach to the one we have used for the last 20years

    A more varied rotation will also allow us to get better use out of existing machinery by spreading workloads (and therefore risk) more effectively, that will help towards the loss of outright gross margin I guess

  24. #24
    Gothmog
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Just got Claydon 2012 dvd and they talk of WW WW OSR rotation.

    That was what I was maybe going to look at. As when droppign out of organic, figures were best profit from this. But now seen here people saying beans or even barley in rotation.

    Is this because of the soil or think improves the soil biology?

  25. #25
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Just got Claydon 2012 dvd and they talk of WW WW OSR rotation.

    That was what I was maybe going to look at. As when droppign out of organic, figures were best profit from this. But now seen here people saying beans or even barley in rotation.

    Is this because of the soil or think improves the soil biology?
    If you think you can do it then do it. But you may get trouble with Brome and other grassweeds. That said you may get three rotations out of it so see how it goes. You are not using the key tool of chemistry rotation that well though it would be better if you could stick one more crop in after the rape before going back to wheat. Two wheats in a row isn't necessarily a bad thing to do provided you can deal with other weeds elsewhere.

  26. #26
    fullback155
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    I use WW OSR WW Linseed on my heavy land. The linseed will be spring if there is a black grass issue and winter if not.

    On my lighter land I use WW (cover crop) SB OSR WW (cover crop) SB W Linseed.

    This is all direct drilled with a Dale Eco drill.

  27. #27
    Fran Loake
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    I'm struggling to work out a rotation that will suit me at the moment. We are converting from a WW WW OSR rotation with plough/combi drill or autocast cultivation regime, to hopefully a CTF/Direct drill life.
    I was thinking of a OSR WW (cover crop) S peas or Beans WW WW rotation but the more I think about it, the more I am tempted by 2 spring breaks (maybe oats as a second break) following each other and no 2nd wheats.
    Benefits would be fantastic for controlling blackgrass alone but, like many, I have a rent to pay and need the gross margins to cover it.
    Is anyone following a similar rotation? And if so how has it affected overall profitability.
    Oh how I long for a break crop that would mirror OSR...
    Fran

  28. #28
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran Loake View Post
    I'm struggling to work out a rotation that will suit me at the moment. We are converting from a WW WW OSR rotation with plough/combi drill or autocast cultivation regime, to hopefully a CTF/Direct drill life.
    I was thinking of a OSR WW (cover crop) S peas or Beans WW WW rotation but the more I think about it, the more I am tempted by 2 spring breaks (maybe oats as a second break) following each other and no 2nd wheats.
    Benefits would be fantastic for controlling blackgrass alone but, like many, I have a rent to pay and need the gross margins to cover it.
    Is anyone following a similar rotation? And if so how has it affected overall profitability.
    Oh how I long for a break crop that would mirror OSR...
    Fran
    Spoke to a bloke yesterday whose DD spring beans did 2.5t/acre. it ain't a bad option surely?

    How about bringing in a spring wheat in or a late drilled ie Nov WW?

    WW/SW/SB/WOSR (bit late maybe/maybe not + herb residue)
    WW/WW/WOSR/cover/SB

    S Barley may not be the daftest thing in the world either

  29. #29
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Spoke to a bloke yesterday whose DD spring beans did 2.5t/acre. it ain't a bad option surely?

    How about bringing in a spring wheat in or a late drilled ie Nov WW?

    WW/SW/SB/WOSR (bit late maybe/maybe not + herb residue)
    WW/WW/WOSR/cover/SB

    S Barley may not be the daftest thing in the world either
    Quiet Will! Keep letting everyone believe that Osr is the only decent break crop as it means they do not come in and flood other markets!

  30. #30
    Fran Loake
    Guest

    Re: sticky, rotation and rotation trials?

    Ha yes, 2.5T of beans sound passable doesn't it... I wonder what the wheat crop after oats then beans would be like? I would like to think it would be a bit special and very clean but am I fooling myself? Would the whole 5 year rotation turn into an equivalent paying rotation as 2 wheats and a rape? I'd like to think so but would be cacking it while finding out.

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