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Thread: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

  1. #1
    MJB
    Guest

    Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Has anyone other than Yara done research into the actual financial benefits of liquid fertiliser over solid? I have had loads of stuff from Yara in conjunction with others but nothing truly independent.

    Links or details would be gratefully received.

    Matt

  2. #2
    einstein
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    wheres tag direct whenyou need hin???
    What worries me is it seems liquid is being marketed as a premium product price wise now and its price has become disconnected from urea and attached to ammonium nitrate.

  3. #3
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by einstein View Post
    wheres tag direct whenyou need hin???
    What worries me is it seems liquid is being marketed as a premium product price wise now and its price has become disconnected from urea and attached to ammonium nitrate.
    Confirmed to me by Omex who were candid enough to advise that liquid price follows UK AN.

  4. #4
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    it's an absolute no brainier if you ask me

    I mean "throwing" tiny bits of solid fert 24m or beyond - even the best machinery in the world with the best operator on in perfect weather conditions is not going to be very accurate is he ?? ok maybe not so bad with sp5 extran etc but cheap Urea or so3 products etc ??? no thanks !

    compared to droping the stuff from a boom exactly in the right place

    Double overlap spreaders make a joke of tech like N sensor !!

    liquid wins here every time

    then headlands - can only ever be a compromise with solids, either fert your hedges or suffer yield loss

    not even started on logistics and fixed costs ! - better utilization of your sprayer and no need to even own a spreader, faster filling without the aid of a loader and no waste disposal cost of empty bags, ability to have tanks on outlying blocks of land making fert a one man, one machine operation and reducing travel time running back to yard to fill or paying an extra man and machine to chase with solid fert and loader / chaser bin

    Cheap or free storage for liquid - going liquid has gained me an extra 1000T of grain storage space - that's worth 10k pa alone

    You need to look further than Omex and Yara and be a bit smarter / willing to help yourself if you want it to be cheaper than solid - I bet my liquid this year cost a LOT less than 99% have paid for solid

  5. #5
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Confirmed to me by Omex who were candid enough to advise that liquid price follows UK AN.
    well don't buy from them then !

    any fool can make their own, it's hardly degree level chemistry

  6. #6
    Colhonk
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    I know nothing of liquid fert, but do you not have to buy solids to be able to make your own liquid fert?

  7. #7
    REW
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    it's an absolute no brainier if you ask me

    I mean "throwing" tiny bits of solid fert 24m or beyond - even the best machinery in the world with the best operator on in perfect weather conditions is not going to be very accurate is he ?? ok maybe not so bad with sp5 extran etc but cheap Urea or so3 products etc ??? no thanks !

    compared to droping the stuff from a boom exactly in the right place

    Double overlap spreaders make a joke of tech like N sensor !!

    liquid wins here every time

    then headlands - can only ever be a compromise with solids, either fert your

    hedges or suffer yield loss

    not even started on logistics and fixed costs ! - better utilization of your sprayer and no need to even own a spreader, faster filling without the aid of a loader and no waste disposal cost of empty bags, ability to have tanks on outlying blocks of land making fert a one man, one machine operation and reducing travel time running back to yard to fill or paying an extra man and machine to chase with solid fert and loader / chaser bin

    Cheap or free storage for liquid - going liquid has gained me an extra 1000T of grain storage space - that's worth 10k pa alone

    You need to look further than Omex and Yara and be a bit smarter / willing to help yourself if you want it to be cheaper than solid - I bet my liquid this year cost a LOT less than 99% have paid for solid
    +1 - one machine, one man, no storage tied up, headlands, v acurate and even, can change formulation when ever I want, dont even own a solid spreader

  8. #8
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    well don't buy from them then !

    any fool can make their own, it's hardly degree level chemistry
    True

    Just taking another look at liquid (as it seems are many)

    Done the mix your own N20 in the past which is probably cheapest option but logistically not great carting weak fert about. Obviously can make stronger mixes but then you're buying more expensive solid fert to mix in so does it work out cheaper than buying in? Currently use a mixture of gran urea, imported N26S37 and Lithan which works well for us at 24m and yields aren't too shabby. If I'd bought liquid at the same time as solid it would have cost me 15,000 extra. So would I get the necessary extra yield off 250ha OSR and 320ha wheat to pay for fert?

    On the N sensor I don't get the idea that liquid is better. Does the crop vary according to tramlines or does it gradually taper off between good spots and bad spots? And technically much easier to vra on a spreader without the expense of nozzle switching etc or a drop in output.

    I am open minded and can very much see the benefits of liquid fert, but independent evidence (other than anecdotal) of the benefits do seem to be scarce. I suspect a mix and match system would achieve the economic and agronomic optimum.

    Clive - didn't it take you 10 years to make the switch back to liquid? A long time if it is such a no brainer!

  9. #9
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    True



    Clive - didn't it take you 10 years to make the switch back to liquid? A long time if it is such a no brainer!
    Yes - there is a good reason though !

    I personally seem to have an allergy to liquid fert ! if I get anywhere near the stuff I go red as a beetroot ! don't even have to get it on my skin, just being near the sprayer when filling is enough

    So while I had anything to do with application it was not an option - as I no longer drive a sprayer or get anywhere near the stuff we were able to go back to it

    could have done it a year or so earlier I guess and wish I had now really, I guess 10 years had let me forget how much better it was !

  10. #10
    yellow belly
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    it's an absolute no brainier if you ask me

    I mean "throwing" tiny bits of solid fert 24m or beyond - even the best machinery in the world with the best operator on in perfect weather conditions is not going to be very accurate is he ?? ok maybe not so bad with sp5 extran etc but cheap Urea or so3 products etc ??? no thanks !

    compared to droping the stuff from a boom exactly in the right place

    Double overlap spreaders make a joke of tech like N sensor !!

    liquid wins here every time

    then headlands - can only ever be a compromise with solids, either fert your hedges or suffer yield loss

    not even started on logistics and fixed costs ! - better utilization of your sprayer and no need to even own a spreader, faster filling without the aid of a loader and no waste disposal cost of empty bags, ability to have tanks on outlying blocks of land making fert a one man, one machine operation and reducing travel time running back to yard to fill or paying an extra man and machine to chase with solid fert and loader / chaser bin

    Cheap or free storage for liquid - going liquid has gained me an extra 1000T of grain storage space - that's worth 10k pa alone

    You need to look further than Omex and Yara and be a bit smarter / willing to help yourself if you want it to be cheaper than solid - I bet my liquid this year cost a LOT less than 99% have paid for solid
    +1*10
    the evenness is worth the higher price alone with out the more efficient and quicker uptake even on heavy land which had some spring rain the liguid was in the crop within hours where as solid stayed around for weeks

    with solid the headland overlaps cost more in lost yeald(no combine cannot cope with partially laid crop if you slow down the threshing losses rise if you keep the forward speed up the header losses rise) than the misses

    i you field are all large (50 acres ) cheaper fert may give a comparable margin

  11. #11
    Hillfarmer
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Where is the best place to BUY grp fertiliser storage tanks?

  12. #12
    MJB
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Personally I believe that liquid fert is a better product for all of the reasons listed above BUT the only research seems to have been don by YARA which isn't great when you are trying to wean landowners off urea.

    I'm interested to know the secret of your super cheap fertiliser Clive but then I guess so is everyone. I have been involved in the home mixing job and really can't get excited about carting around a lot of water for little reward. If you are mixing you're own you also take the double whammy of cost in that you store the solid fertiliser , then pay the cost of water and mixing it. unless you can buy very cheap distressed fertiliser does it really make sense when you can buy 37% stuff delivered as and when you want it and into free tanks? There are more suppliers out there now and maybe competition will improve prices haha.

    Back to the point of the thread, are there any cold hard facts as to the financial benefit of liquid over solid. Not just liquid over solid urea but over AN too?

    Matt

  13. #13
    stroller
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    How do they get it to 37%? If I mix it my self is the max I can get 20%? Would the N rate at 100l/ha then be 20kg?

  14. #14
    banana bar
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    We have experienced both systems over the last 20 years. We were on a liquid 24m system for several years before switching to a 32m system based on solid. The first year of solid we paid around 17k for a singing dancing spreader (Bogballe M3W) on the back of a Bateman using 100%urea and had a fantastic year with good quality urea and saved 15k. Year 2 we had two lots of urea one was good and one bad. After huge frustration we managed to send the rubbish stuff back and have it replaced with a quality product foc although we did have to even up the misses with a small dose of liquid N. The inaccuracies in the spreading were noticible at harvest. Year 3 I decided that the risk of Urea was too great as our total N source so consequently bought half the N as Extran therefore the saving over liquid was much less. This year apart from 200t of Urea bought at a very good rate we are using approx 60% liquid N and the remainder as Extran. Next year we have decided to say b******s to any solid N and do the whole lot with liquid. We will be buying around 1000m3 of N and I am really looking forward to having much reduced storage issues, no bags to dispose of and most importantly 100% accuracy.
    I have never been tempted down the route of home mixing. I do think if you are lucky enough to have a ring fenced farm, home mixing may work, but once you have to start hauling the stuff I would question whether the saving is that great.

    BB

  15. #15
    czechmate
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by stroller View Post
    How do they get it to 37%? If I mix it my self is the max I can get 20%? Would the N rate at 100l/ha then be 20kg?
    That is saturation point with Urea. You then add AN. (As I understand it)

  16. #16
    MJB
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Banana Bar farms very close to Yara's mixing plant in Suffolk, just in time delivery will not be an issue for him I'm sure!

    Matt

  17. #17
    henery
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Did the majority with liquid last year, after much deliberation. Buying an old Bateman RB 16 with twin lines made it a real option. Our average field is 11 acs, with some very bizarre headlands. After last years experience I am sold, liquid is so much more accurate and efficient, absolute no brainer here, even on a limited acreage.
    Getting the full rate on the outside 6+ metres for me is a huge step forward, and I'm only using 160 kg per ha max.

  18. #18
    TAG Direct
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Can't comment on the logistics, but technically there's no difference in the two as N sources, other than the urea content of UAN needs to be noted, i.e. it's not as good as AN at making grain protein. With solid urea, all you need to do is switch some or all of the final dose on a milling wheat to AN. With liquid you may be forced into a urea ear spray or a late solid AN application.

  19. #19
    Alistair_Nelson
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    If you are to go down the liquid route for N what are people doing about P and K is it available in liquid form? Obviously it is available as suspension but if you are to sell the spinner and put the money into the sprayer is a liquid solution available preferably as a straight P or K?

    Thanks

    Alistair

  20. #20
    MJB
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair_Nelson View Post
    If you are to go down the liquid route for N what are people doing about P and K is it available in liquid form? Obviously it is available as suspension but if you are to sell the spinner and put the money into the sprayer is a liquid solution available preferably as a straight P or K?

    Thanks

    Alistair
    From our point of view we would keep our spreader (Kuhn Axis) as it is able to do P and K variably. But I would not be happy trying to spread N with it to 30m + and to buy a new spreader to do variable rate, auto shut off and capable of getting fert to over 30m is going to be the thick end of 20K - our spreader is only worth 4k (maybe a bit more???) so I would have potentially an extra 16k to add to my sprayer budget in the next year or so and my old Axis should do last another 7 or 8 years.

    Matt

  21. #21
    Alistair_Nelson
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    So Basically P and K isn't possible in liquid form, so you either need to keep a spinner for it or use a contractor. so when we are at 24m the benefits aren't as great as for people looking wider with the N. Was starting to think I was missing the point.

    Thanks

    Alistair

  22. #22
    Against_the_grain
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    I cant understand why boomed spreaders aren't more popular. They give you accurate full width spreading (including headlands), in any conditions. You can put lower grade material through them as spread pattern isn't as important, and they still allow you to use cheaper solids as opposed to more expensive liquids. And they are ideal for variable rate spreading as you are using a boom not throwing the stuff around.

  23. #23
    banana bar
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Against_the_grain View Post
    I cant understand why boomed spreaders aren't more popular. They give you accurate full width spreading (including headlands), in any conditions. You can put lower grade material through them as spread pattern isn't as important, and they still allow you to use cheaper solids as opposed to more expensive liquids. And they are ideal for variable rate spreading as you are using a boom not throwing the stuff around.

    Unless you buy the massive spreaders from Kuhn(?) at huge money they are stupidly slow because of the small hopper size.

    BB

  24. #24
    Tomsewell
    Guest

    Smile Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by banana bar View Post
    We have experienced both systems over the last 20 years. We were on a liquid 24m system for several years before switching to a 32m system based on solid. The first year of solid we paid around 17k for a singing dancing spreader (Bogballe M3W) on the back of a Bateman using 100%urea and had a fantastic year with good quality urea and saved 15k. Year 2 we had two lots of urea one was good and one bad. After huge frustration we managed to send the rubbish stuff back and have it replaced with a quality product foc although we did have to even up the misses with a small dose of liquid N. The inaccuracies in the spreading were noticible at harvest. Year 3 I decided that the risk of Urea was too great as our total N source so consequently bought half the N as Extran therefore the saving over liquid was much less. This year apart from 200t of Urea bought at a very good rate we are using approx 60% liquid N and the remainder as Extran. Next year we have decided to say b******s to any solid N and do the whole lot with liquid. We will be buying around 1000m3 of N and I am really looking forward to having much reduced storage issues, no bags to dispose of and most importantly 100% accuracy.
    I have never been tempted down the route of home mixing. I do think if you are lucky enough to have a ring fenced farm, home mixing may work, but once you have to start hauling the stuff I would question whether the saving is that great.

    BB
    Good move BB hope it wasn't all based on my small scale ideals. How many bags won't you have to dispose of next year? How many lorries won't you have to wait for and unload and how much product will you throw in the road/ditch/hedge? Regards Tom

  25. #25
    gunslinger
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair_Nelson View Post
    So Basically P and K isn't possible in liquid form, so you either need to keep a spinner for it or use a contractor. so when we are at 24m the benefits aren't as great as for people looking wider with the N. Was starting to think I was missing the point.

    Thanks

    Alistair
    P & K is possible in liquid form, sprayed 000,s of acres for a firm that manufactures locally, he adds p & k to customers requirements but it does dilute the N so a greater volume is then involved.

  26. #26
    JB
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Been told that you can't apply liquid N to a frosty crop is this true?if so it means more wheelings compared to using solid fert,as we can travel with out leaving a mark on sticky heavy land,when its frosty early spring.

  27. #27
    einstein
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    why would that be??
    i supose if its very rhymey it might spread on the crop rather than bounce or run onto the soil.its not gonna freeze isit!!i guess scorch might be themain worry but would that be a problem on small rape??

  28. #28
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair_Nelson View Post
    So Basically P and K isn't possible in liquid form, so you either need to keep a spinner for it or use a contractor. so when we are at 24m the benefits aren't as great as for people looking wider with the N. Was starting to think I was missing the point.

    Thanks

    Alistair
    You can get clears with P and K but they alway have some N in the mix as well due to formulation

    It's not a cheap way to buy P or K though so I guess most farms retain a spinning disc machine or use a suspension fert contractor

    We still ave a k45 Bateman demount for this and it should last many years to come not spreading N

  29. #29
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Been told that you can't apply liquid N to a frosty crop is this true?if so it means more wheelings compared to using solid fert,as we can travel with out leaving a mark on sticky heavy land,when its frosty early spring.
    Not problem in frost, see people spread it in snow!!!!!

  30. #30
    Bumble Bee
    Guest

    Re: Liquid v solid fert (again) sorry

    You don't want to put liquid ammonium sulphate on to frost I would not think that other liquid nitrogen products are any different. You will get scorch.

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