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Thread: WOSR in rows

  1. #1
    CORK
    Guest

    WOSR in rows

    This has been testing my mind with sometime.

    Has anyone seen independant trials that demonstrate the effect of planting WOSR in rows on yield? positive or otherwise.

    The subsoiler system has quickly gained popularity and I am just trying to decide if it itself has an intrinsic yield benefit or is any potential yield benefit down to timlier sowing or moisture retention where this is an issue.

    I am comparing to a traditional plough-cultivator drill-roll system.

    If one has sufficient area to justify buying the equipement, Im sure there will be time & fuel savings.

    I am also conscious that the machinery manufacturers are pushing the system.

    I noticed much much higher slug pressure where WOSR was established without ploughing over here this year.

    Im interested to hear what others think....

  2. #2
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Personally I think people say it does better in rows because that's the only way the equipment they are selling can do it.

    The best crop of rape we ever had was broadcast with an Alvan Blanche brush box.

  3. #3
    NB
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    I think if you look at trials a plough based system is the best yielding, and row spacing does not matter.
    On Eastern (England) heavy soils and climate however the subsoil based system works better than any other. If I tried to establish OSR with a plough we would fail more often than not, whereas we have not had a crop failure with a subsoiler.

  4. #4
    CORK
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Thanks guys,

    Your 3 replies have more or less confirmed what I had thought myself.

    Reading the farming press, one would get the impression that everyone in the UK was using a subsoiler for planting their WOSR and that only a lunatic (me) would use a plough.

    I do appreciate the difficulty that ploughs can create in terms of heavy soils, moisture loss and cost.

    A number of subsoilers have been bought over here for WOSR, however the guys who do this on contract are charging 45/ac to do it.
    Most Irish arable farmers will already have their own plough which can economically & reliably do the job on our modest acres.
    I also think our wet climate definitely increases slug pressure.

    C

  5. #5
    knockie
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Its just my view, but i'm sure the the cases where it works well is more down to lack of compaction behind the sub-soiler legs giving free rooting rather than the row width, also a wee squirt of N might have something to do with it too.
    Ideal would be full width lack of compaction and broadcast.
    I'd like to see some trial results showing why the sub-soiler method is giving good results not the usual (branching out) thing.
    Anyway just my thoughts.
    Ta.
    SD.

  6. #6
    Against_the_grain
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Moisture Moisture Moisture. If you can get it established your 1/2 the way there. This is the reason subsoiling is so popular i believe. If you plough and then break the seedbed down you have no moisture. Obviously depends on the season but the last few have been fairly dry arounf mid august (here anyway!!)

    BTW we tried subsoiling in two consecutive years and both failed. We now min till and drill with a horsch and get decent yields

  7. #7
    T_M
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    There is a lot of data and independent trials evidence that shows higher yields from moving to wider rows.

    From the results I have seen the Optimum is about 50 cm.

    Lee is unique, he can plough and drill his soil in one day in august, he also has no compaction and his rape can send its lazy tap root anywhere it likes with no restrictions. I can't so subsoiling works for me. Its the difference between a crop and not.

    The wider rows allow the plants to expand and give room to grow.

  8. #8
    veg-boy
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    if you look along the rows of a subsolier the rows will be 50cm odd apart. If you turn 180 degrees and look across the rows the plants will be really close together. If you are saying 50 wide rows are the best yielding i guess the seeds also need to be 50cm apart to let them branch out.
    Our best yields are just using 12.5 cm row widths and 2kg/ha. For us that gives us a nice spacing between plants.

    The main thing is to try it on your own farm and see what works not follow what other people say. At the end of the day i dont really care what works on other farms, i only care how we yield and how much / ha we can make.

  9. #9
    MrNoo
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    It suits me, as being a one man band I pull the subdisc through then roll and job done, some of it didn`t even get a rolling last year. I cannot afford to loose any moisture so it works for me, moisture is king (as has been mentioned before!!)
    I dare say if I had another tractor/man, he could plough and i could get the old Combi out the shed and drill up tight behind the plough but I know from how we used to do this, seedbeds just simply were not good enough (not on out heavier soil anyway)
    I think eventually we will be doing strip till, putting P & K down the spout along with some N and a few slug pellets on the surface, hell we could with RTK and a modified spray boom use glypho between the rows and am sure that micro nutrients etc would then all come into play, then where would it end? There is already talk of gel coated seed (giving it all it needs in the early stages of life) I think it`s all very exciting and am convinced it`s just round the corner.

  10. #10
    RBM
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by T_M View Post
    There is a lot of data and independent trials evidence that shows higher yields from moving to wider rows.

    From the results I have seen the Optimum is about 50 cm.

    Lee is unique, he can plough and drill his soil in one day in august, he also has no compaction and his rape can send its lazy tap root anywhere it likes with no restrictions. I can't so subsoiling works for me. Its the difference between a crop and not.

    The wider rows allow the plants to expand and give room to grow.

  11. #11
    Seat Right Back
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by veg-boy View Post
    if you look along the rows of a subsolier the rows will be 50cm odd apart. If you turn 180 degrees and look across the rows the plants will be really close together. If you are saying 50 wide rows are the best yielding i guess the seeds also need to be 50cm apart to let them branch out.
    Our best yields are just using 12.5 cm row widths and 2kg/ha. For us that gives us a nice spacing between plants.

    The main thing is to try it on your own farm and see what works not follow what other people say. At the end of the day i dont really care what works on other farms, i only care how we yield and how much / ha we can make.
    Im afraid I dont hold with your theory there mr veg man , the most important thing with wide rows is not to over populate them , last couple of years we have worked on about 50 seeds / sq m , so 25 seeds per running M and inplaces I would say that it is plenty ,

  12. #12
    veg-boy
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Seat Right Back View Post
    Im afraid I dont hold with your theory there mr veg man , the most important thing with wide rows is not to over populate them , last couple of years we have worked on about 50 seeds / sq m , so 25 seeds per running M and inplaces I would say that it is plenty ,
    Like i say what ever suits your farm is how you should do it. I still think personally the most important thing is soil to seed contact to get the crop germinated.

  13. #13
    Renaultman
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by knockie View Post
    Its just my view, but i'm sure the the cases where it works well is more down to lack of compaction behind the sub-soiler legs giving free rooting rather than the row width, also a wee squirt of N might have something to do with it too.
    Ideal would be full width lack of compaction and broadcast.
    I'd like to see some trial results showing why the sub-soiler method is giving good results not the usual (branching out) thing.
    Anyway just my thoughts.
    Ta.
    SD.

    That's my thoughts too, it's not so much the rows as the deep aeration you get, allowing better root establishment. I think even spacing after 1 pass deep cultivation and early N is the optimum. I'm no agronomist though, it just seems to work for us.

  14. #14
    Seat Right Back
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    This is fundamentally incorrect because in a row the plant cannot grow out in all directions because of the plant next to it .

    The only way you stand a chance of doing that is with a precision drill or the next best thing broadcast which is what we do.

    What ever the fundamentals are though Lee the fact is that most of the rape that was grown in this area last year in wide rows yielded around the 2 ton mark , and at this moment in time all the rape in the area that was drilled in wide rows looks well and although a long way to go looks promising , the same can not be said for the rape which has been drilled in our area , it generaly looks very average to very poor . So at the moment I am quite happy to have my 20 odd plants in a wide row

    ps if needed can get photos if any doubters

  15. #15
    Seat Right Back
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by veg-boy View Post
    Like i say what ever suits your farm is how you should do it. I still think personally the most important thing is soil to seed contact to get the crop germinated.
    with that I quite agree , but then may I suggest is that the next most important thing is a seedbed that allows for a deep tap root , and that I would suggest is far more important than an even plant spacing , but I would conceed that a lot comes down to soil type and if youve got a nice bit of dirt then perhaps you can get a good root system what ever .

  16. #16
    Seat Right Back
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I am not saying 'drilling' has yielded the best but planting in wide rows, whilst yielding well, is not as good as optimum spacing if all the stuff under the soil is correct.

    'Optimum spacing' is broadcasting.
    but :lolk: , I like this roundabout , the first 3 years we planted of the back of the trio [broadcasted] we had some very dry spells , the seed that fell where a leg had been chitted and grew away , this is through moisture coming up where the leg had been , so planting our 50 seeds / M we ended up with 20 odd seeds / m in a 5 inch band where the leg had been and next to bugger all in between , so therefore we had to spend a lot of time making sure the pigeons didnt come along and wipe of the plants we had remaining , I prefer to have nearer my target population and then that gives me a slight safety net when the pigeons attack , now in a damp year or with rain at the right moment I would conceed that the germination factor goes out the window , but in a dry one it most certainly does not

  17. #17
    FarmerStan
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Yep couple 'optimum spacing' by broadcasting with deep loosening across the whole working width is what's got me over 2t/ac for the last 4 seasons.

    Just wish we could find a way of consistently growing 4t of wheat!
    Maybe broadcasting your wheat would do that!

    I agree with you about OSR growing in all directions - therefore needing 360 degrees in which to grow.
    I think this applies to all crops though - not above ground - but below.
    So if wheat was broadcast then the roots would spread more evenly.

    Now i'll sit back and wait for all the comments about seed depth etc etc.

  18. #18
    NB
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    I tend to broadcast on the trailed press behind the subsoiler. The crop comes up in wide rows where the subsoiler leg has been, and not too thick. There is the odd plant between the wider rows.

    What a waste of seed I hear you all shout. Yes, but I cannot guarantee that the press is always dead in line with the subsoiler, and occasionally it will grow between between the subsoiled strips. I need to tow the press and use its rigid tines just to level out the ground behind the subsoiler.

    As others have pointed out - it works for me.

  19. #19
    veg-boy
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    i would love to see rape drilled in a trial with sugar beet drill units. Wide rows and good spacing in the row. If you could stick that on the back of a solo or sumo you would end up with a bloody good crop i reckon. It would take some balls but if you could get a good tilth you would end up with a seriously low seed rate. I guess thats the bit that would worry the trials people or the people who sell the seed.

  20. #20
    Seat Right Back
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    I suppose the one question has to be , what is the top yield possible on your land with your amount of inputs , if your not achieving near those levels then maybe your system needs refining [ as long as you have had good growing conditions ] , if you are achieving levels at what you are happy with is there any point spending loads of money on something that may put a fly in the ointment

  21. #21
    Ognob
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    there's a big farmer near me who always has 40-50 acres of osr trials on his farm. The results are probably only provided for other farmers in their agronomy group, but they certainly have trialled precision drilling, and some of the row widths look at least 60cm, same as a subsoiler leg. i would like to know how low a rate you could get a 2 tonne/acre crop from. probably .5kg/ha if you had everything on your side, including 90% germination and slug survival.
    best looking crops in this area (North Suffolk, heavy boulder clay) have gone in behind some sort of deep cultivation - mostly subsoilers with additional legs/discs and heavy presses. Almost no OSR is drilled conventionally anymore. A few brave souls are still dropping seed in off the combine header, but thats a bit hit and miss. Year in year out, wet, dry, bad slugs / no lsuygs, crops get away well where you have a deep subsoiler leg bring up fresh soil, into which the seed can germinate. Does it max the yiled? Probably not, but most farmers would rather a fully established crop year in year out, than a perfect crop one year, and crop failure the next.

    I should have thought that some of the best crops in 2012 will come from Direct drilled crops, but the data from different establishment techniques is hard to come by....unless you have a good agronomy group

  22. #22
    Renaultman
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Seat Right Back View Post
    I suppose the one question has to be , what is the top yield possible on your land with your amount of inputs , if your not achieving near those levels then maybe your system needs refining [ as long as you have had good growing conditions ] , if you are achieving levels at what you are happy with is there any point spending loads of money on something that may put a fly in the ointment
    I'm sure I've read somewhere that Wheat type yields are achievable for OSR. I would be happy if I could regularly get 5t/ha

  23. #23
    Heugh
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by veg-boy View Post
    i would love to see rape drilled in a trial with sugar beet drill units. Wide rows and good spacing in the row. If you could stick that on the back of a solo or sumo you would end up with a bloody good crop i reckon. It would take some balls but if you could get a good tilth you would end up with a seriously low seed rate. I guess thats the bit that would worry the trials people or the people who sell the seed.
    Has been tried and trialled about 5-6 years ago with soft clay coated seeds if memory serves me correctly.I think the cost of producing the seed coating was prohibative on a commercial basis.As for worrying the people who run trials and sell seed is it not because of their work that the current WOSR seed rates are currently so low or are you still happy sowing WOSR at 120+ seeds per m2?If so I bet your merchant loves you when taking the WOSR seed order.

  24. #24
    Exfarmer
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by Ognob View Post
    there's a big farmer near me who always has 40-50 acres of osr trials on his farm. The results are probably only provided for other farmers in their agronomy group, but they certainly have trialled precision drilling, and some of the row widths look at least 60cm, same as a subsoiler leg. i would like to know how low a rate you could get a 2 tonne/acre crop from. probably .5kg/ha if you had everything on your side, including 90% germination and slug survival.
    best looking crops in this area (North Suffolk, heavy boulder clay) have gone in behind some sort of deep cultivation - mostly subsoilers with additional legs/discs and heavy presses. Almost no OSR is drilled conventionally anymore. A few brave souls are still dropping seed in off the combine header, but thats a bit hit and miss. Year in year out, wet, dry, bad slugs / no lsuygs, crops get away well where you have a deep subsoiler leg bring up fresh soil, into which the seed can germinate. Does it max the yiled? Probably not, but most farmers would rather a fully established crop year in year out, than a perfect crop one year, and crop failure the next.

    I should have thought that some of the best crops in 2012 will come from Direct drilled crops, but the data from different establishment techniques is hard to come by....unless you have a good agronomy group
    I can show you some local crops on very heavy land established by plough this year which probably look the best I have seen anywhere
    but I would argue that they were damn lucky
    I think that the subsoiler is the best every year way of doing things on most heavy land

  25. #25
    tchris
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Went to a meeting yesterday about rape establishment presented by Agrovista and detailing results from 4 years of trials at there northallerton site.
    They reckon 40 -50 cm apart but also no more than 15 plants per linear meter.
    I agree with them that the best way to determine the quality of the plant is to dig one up and look at how the root looks.
    Learnt myself last year that if you plant to many to close you get poorer roots and poorer canopy resulting in loss of yield.
    I personally do not use a subsoiler to sow rape.
    We make do with what we have got.
    There data showed that there was very little yield difference between all establishment types, provided moisture was not lost

  26. #26
    willb
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Having tried putting OSR in rows on a shakerator and a Trio we have settled on broadcasting behind the trio.

    The biggest impact we have found is rolling twice. Rolling is a job my father likes as he doesn't have to think for a brief period and so doing it twice means twice as much not thinking so it suits everyone!

  27. #27
    NB
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Like tchris I was at Agrovista/Sentry meeting yesterday.

    Optimum 50cm rows, thinner crops better than thicker.

    Avoid autumn N as it promotes top growth at the expense of root growth. It is the size of the roots in March that determines yield.

    Wide rows can unfortunately promote weed growth, but if Kerb is banned we may be forced into wide rows and band spraying inbetween. Band spraying works well with diquat as if you touch any crop leaves you only loose that leaf not the whole plant.

    The yield differences between wide and narrow rows were marginal as was plant population (within reason). At the end of the day we all know what is ideal, but we have many other pest and weather problems that can cause problems and a slightly thicker crop has much more tolerance to those.

  28. #28
    Mayo
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Moisture would be the thing I concerned myself with, not slugs or spacing.

    Surely if people are saying broadcasting is giving you the best results, what is wrong with a trio/subsoiler/etc with a seedbox on the back dribbling the seed out on the surface and a tickling/cover harrow or even straw rake after that? Roll and done?

    I can see why broadcasting would give good results- OSR seed being so tiny the traditional approach is probably putting the seed too deep if anything, if going by Elmsteds seed size=depth equation?

  29. #29
    Renaultman
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Quote Originally Posted by tchris View Post
    Went to a meeting yesterday about rape establishment presented by Agrovista and detailing results from 4 years of trials at there northallerton site.
    They reckon 40 -50 cm apart but also no more than 15 plants per linear meter.
    I agree with them that the best way to determine the quality of the plant is to dig one up and look at how the root looks.
    Learnt myself last year that if you plant to many to close you get poorer roots and poorer canopy resulting in loss of yield.
    I personally do not use a subsoiler to sow rape.
    We make do with what we have got.
    There data showed that there was very little yield difference between all establishment types, provided moisture was not lost
    Chris
    We get a contractor in with a topdown to drill ours. It seems a bit daft to watch a man working while all our gear is stood in the yard but I know I can't do as good a job as he does.
    The contractor now drills a lot of the OSR locally, and it's one of them situations when it's best not looked at till about now. If you ever fancy a look, just drop me a PM and call in, and I'll give you all the details.

  30. #30
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: WOSR in rows

    Taxonomically speaking it is not a bush.

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