Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 47 of 47

Thread: True or False?

  1. #31
    marco
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Maybe in a 100 yrs but how are you going to live between now and then.
    you got those high mag soils sorted yet?

    how much longer in years do you recon you will have to spread gypsum to get your soils in such a condition as you would be happy to dd?

  2. #32
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    I think you need to see a Psychiatrist, and possibly get a crane to move that massive chip off your shoulder as well.

    But tell me what you can grow before you tell me what you can't grow. The question I asked didn't have an answer saying that direct drilling is the only way it was asking about to what degree a healthy soil helps make everything else slot into place easier or not.
    Yer right. I owe you and the board an apology.

    I apologize to Mr. Scale and rest of the forum. I'll shut up now and back away as quietly as I can.

  3. #33
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
    Yer right. I owe you and the board an apology.

    I apologize to Mr. Scale and rest of the forum. I'll shut up now and back away as quietly as I can.
    What are you apologising for?

    You can say whatever the hell you want - as do I. It doesn't bother me. I was wanting to know what people thought of the original statement and how relevant is was. You've got as much right to say what you want as anyone - but you can't blame me for asking why you think what you think.

  4. #34
    Gothmog
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    I have heard this now for quite a while , and to be honest I don't believe it .

    "Show me the money,"

    will someone who low disturbance drills , actually say that after so many years they use less variable cost and have higher yields

    And prove it ,
    Well I think I use less P and K - I genuinely think biological activity helps P availibilty that I can't get in tillage. I think my ph is tends to become slower in getting back to a more acidic state than it used to be - one field seven years no till ph 6.4 and not limed for 7 years.

    There was some money from farming connect in Wales this year to soil test the whole farm - I tested a load of permanent pasture and some woodland as well - it was bringing back ph's of 6.3's and P and K's of 3's. So something is going on here that may be greater than the sum of its parts I think.

    No wheats that have been direct drilled had autumn herbicide and there are hardly any weeds now - I think by year 3 of low disturbance you can start to get the benefits of less weeds of cultivation. But not before and you have to get strict about it.

    Not saved on N yet, drill costs not much to run per acre and naturally fuel use is lower.

    I've a fair way to go but I think I can get down to one (cheap) herbicide per crop pretty quickly and some roundup. Not willing to cut on fungicides yet or N but will start experimenting soon.

    Yields are generally the same. When its good its way better and when its not good it can be rubbish too.

    I can see more potential but I'm also in the lucky position of having visited a few people around UK and the world doing this and so I'm maybe more excited by the potential than others [/QUOTE]

    When I was organic I was told that Organic did not need as much P+K as the soil bactria and organisms when they broke down straw and other organic matter basicly released 'waste' or you could say 'pee', that reacted with the soil and broke it down further and helped release P+K
    that would not have been available to the plant.

    So as to my mind, DD is a sort of organic approach as in wanting to build up the soil life then I could see that less p+k is needed.

    I going down to Claydons farm soon to havea look at their set up and discuss if there is any organic tips that could carry over to conventional when you DD.

  5. #35
    Normandyfarmer
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by fred View Post
    @ Fred and others : a healthy soil able to reduce chemical and fertiliser usage and that is seen among no-till pioneers. It reduce your cost of production, so your start making money before the others.
    Healthy soil = healthy crop = good bottom line.

    When taking care of the soil is costing money ?

    I have heard this now for quite a while , and to be honest I don't believe it .

    "Show me the money,"

    will someone who low disturbance drills , actually say that after so many years they use less variable cost and have higher yields

    And prove it ,[/QUOTE]

    I've seen it in different location. Of course it's more difficult when you grow 10T wheat and 5T rape, but as Will said, it can help you reduce weed problems (that are not saved with tillage) or fertility problem as well.

    For example In the US some people are raising 10T corn without fertiliser, thanks to a healthy soil (long term no-till and cover-cropping). These farmers have the lowest cost of production in their area and some out yield their neighbors
    "think outside of the box" not only in a term of wheat/OSR

    In France we are experimenting for the 5th year the seeding of OSR and companion crop with great results : improved root system, better weed control, better fertility return, less insect pressure. Only with some seeds. So yes, you can reduce your cost, and still produce a lot, and push the yield if you are in difficult conditions.

    @ Doorknob : You have the greatest specialist of no-till in your country, you just need to take time to visit them. I was speaking at the winter conference of no-till on the plains in Salina, KS last January. I met Gabe Brown, from North Dakota, Dwayne Beck, from South Dakota, David Brant from Ohio...all these farmers are welcoming farmers on field days on their farm.

  6. #36
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Well personally I don't see them as organic tips I just see them as farm husbandry tips. To me organic farming is a pile of rules - I don't agree with cod-philosphical stuff that is said about it sometimes. So I'd prefer to view it as fertility building for its own sake than bringing the Organic word into it as I think its a distraction (for me - I recognise happily for some it is the main attraction of organic)

    There is no doubt the less you remove, the more you put back or the more effectively you cycle your nutrients then the less likelihood of those nutrients heading elsewhere. So organics = less yield, more cycling = less p and k.

    Also it is pretty well proven that mychorrizal threads in the soil facilitate better flow of nutrients to the plant. But we're not taught much of this in college or the FW so its up to us to find out - and also biology is very difficult to prove and measure because it fluxes so much.

    Tillage chops mychorrizae up and fungicides can kill them - which is better? I don't know, but I know I still want to farm without chickweed, tillage, maintenance subsidies and organic inspections so personally I choose No Till, other people may prefer organic. Its horses for courses and farming is all the better for it.

    I'm a much bigger fan of ultra low disturbance no till than I am of high disturbance direct drilling - not denying there are times when a Claydon/ Mzuri may have made a better job of certain crops of mine (particularly when phasing into direct drilling) but medium term that's where I think the most advantages are to be had. If I can see where i've been with the drill I'll get upset.

  7. #37
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    What are you apologising for?
    For going off topic. I used to feel that any one that reads and takes from a message board, should register and try to participate in hopes of returning some in exchange for the info taken. I have since found that I need to avoid topics of opinion and stick to topics that I can offer factual info in return. I was doing pretty good at this for some time. It is tax day here, and I made a mistake and entered an opinion topic. For that I apologize and will try harder to not make the mistake again. Thanks.

  8. #38
    essexpete
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by pig fighter View Post
    Maybe a "healthy" soil is one that, like a super fit adventure athlete, it can stand the racket of everything being thrown at it. So a healthy soil will grow big crops without worrying wether you are damaging it through cultivation, it will take on the chin any rotation of crops and will act as a "bank account" that you can deposit high levels of soluble inputs into and gain a return on your investment.
    Healthy isn't necessarily just having your five a day and doing a 1 mile walk.
    The analogy breaks down when the super fit athlete has been pushed to a degree that causes a rapid end to career or ill heath in later life.

    I am a miserable git.

  9. #39
    peterraugland
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    "If we focus on the health of the soil resource long term it will return more to our bottom line than anything else."

    False!

    In essence maybe True. But in reality False: Returning to a bottom line requires a bottom line in the first place, going bust while sowing covercrops and focusing on soil health wont leave you with much of a bottom line at all. So, pointing at a single maxime that could be universal for every farmer to do; which will return more to the farmers bl is impossible.

    The focus should surly be to accept the holism of the farm the farmer is farming. Whats the inns and outs of the farm and its economy? And what can be done, HERE, by the farmer, NOW, to; 1. Give as much return today, and 2. reduce input/establish costs tomorrow..? (its today we make money, tomorrow we farm for free.) And here I think Doorknob is nailing the nail (this must be an english idiom surely?:lolk; if he imported some greenwaste/manure/compost for horrid prices, "focus on soil health" would sure make him go bust, short term and long term.

  10. #40
    strip-till-phil
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by peasantman View Post

    The less we do to our soil the better it is.
    We are seeing this as well, not ploughed anything since 2005, Claydoned just about everything since 2009

    We are getting 'more for less' (a lot less)

  11. #41
    kennyo
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    How do you DD boys define/ analyse your soils health?

    Our soils are a mixed bag but mostly loamy but the topsoil is only the depth of the plough! Bit of dung put on, bit of grass in rotation, all straw baled.

    I take samples for PK, pH and sometimes broad spectrum. But would like advice on how to look for a 'Healthy' soil.

  12. #42
    marco
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterraugland View Post
    "If we focus on the health of the soil resource long term it will return more to our bottom line than anything else."

    False!

    In essence maybe True. But in reality False: Returning to a bottom line requires a bottom line in the first place, going bust while sowing covercrops and focusing on soil health wont leave you with much of a bottom line at all. So, pointing at a single maxime that could be universal for every farmer to do; which will return more to the farmers bl is impossible.

    The focus should surly be to accept the holism of the farm the farmer is farming. Whats the inns and outs of the farm and its economy? And what can be done, HERE, by the farmer, NOW, to; 1. Give as much return today, and 2. reduce input/establish costs tomorrow..? (its today we make money, tomorrow we farm for free.) And here I think Doorknob is nailing the nail (this must be an english idiom surely?:lolk; if he imported some greenwaste/manure/compost for horrid prices, "focus on soil health" would sure make him go bust, short term and long term.
    Ok, if a farmer is going to go bust sowing a cover crop, that farmer was going to go bust anyway. If 20 of seed pushes him over the edge there was no saving him anyway.

    getting as much return today? A tonne of 18/6/12 will cost around 500 but people are prepared to sell bales for 7(after paying for baling) Or 71.5round bales. I know whitch i would prefer on my field.

  13. #43
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo View Post
    How do you DD boys define/ analyse your soils health?

    Our soils are a mixed bag but mostly loamy but the topsoil is only the depth of the plough! Bit of dung put on, bit of grass in rotation, all straw baled.

    I take samples for PK, pH and sometimes broad spectrum. But would like advice on how to look for a 'Healthy' soil.
    Our situation is very much like yours. All ploughed and baled at the moment, but having seen the possible cost reductions from DD and then read many many articles, books etc on the improvements that can be made to soil by not ploughing and in particular moving the soil as little as possible, and then going to see this happening for real, I'm going to have a go at no till. It might go tits up. I'm ready for that possibility...

    What I'm looking for from my soil in terms of improvements are...

    -Better water absorption and retention to mitigate future droughts
    -Better nutrient cycling by having a more biologically active soil
    -Better tilth... i.e. no need to hammer seed beds into shape
    -No plough pan and so better plant rooting

    That's for starters. Fingers crossed, eh?

    Think of it this way if you were offered two fields to rent, one an old ley that had been arable for a few years with lovely black earth, and one that had the life sucked out of it by continuous wheat and tillage for the last thirty years, which would you choose.

  14. #44
    Monkthefarmer
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Our situation is very much like yours. All ploughed and baled at the moment, but having seen the possible cost reductions from DD and then read many many articles, books etc on the improvements that can be made to soil by not ploughing and in particular moving the soil as little as possible, and then going to see this happening for real, I'm going to have a go at no till. It might go tits up. I'm ready for that possibility...

    What I'm looking for from my soil in terms of improvements are...

    -Better water absorption and retention to mitigate future droughts
    -Better nutrient cycling by having a more biologically active soil
    -Better tilth... i.e. no need to hammer seed beds into shape
    -No plough pan and so better plant rooting

    That's for starters. Fingers crossed, eh?

    Think of it this way if you were offered two fields to rent, one an old ley that had been arable for a few years with lovely black earth, and one that had the life sucked out of it by continuous wheat and tillage for the last thirty years, which would you choose.
    Good for you Farmer Dan,

    We went for it last autumn, from a full plough based system, initially to reduce costs and conserve moisture, plus of course the other benefits you have stated. Don't think we'd be far away from you, if you'd like to see some claydon drilled crops on our farm feel free to PM me.

    Paul.

  15. #45
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Our situation is very much like yours. All ploughed and baled at the moment, but having seen the possible cost reductions from DD and then read many many articles, books etc on the improvements that can be made to soil by not ploughing and in particular moving the soil as little as possible, and then going to see this happening for real, I'm going to have a go at no till. It might go tits up. I'm ready for that possibility...

    What I'm looking for from my soil in terms of improvements are...

    -Better water absorption and retention to mitigate future droughts
    -Better nutrient cycling by having a more biologically active soil
    -Better tilth... i.e. no need to hammer seed beds into shape
    -No plough pan and so better plant rooting

    That's for starters. Fingers crossed, eh?

    Think of it this way if you were offered two fields to rent, one an old ley that had been arable for a few years with lovely black earth, and one that had the life sucked out of it by continuous wheat and tillage for the last thirty years, which would you choose.
    It won't go tits up Dan but you will have a reasonably steep learning curve. If you remain focused on the end goal and make sure when something hasn't performed as well as you hoped you find out what the reason was and don't repeat it. It will always be fixable and as you're learning you may wish to still till the odd field.

    My only wonder with you is in what condition that SH drill you bought is in. Are all the discs not overworn and that they all line up perfectly?

  16. #46
    The ruminant
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Think of it this way if you were offered two fields to rent, one an old ley that had been arable for a few years with lovely black earth, and one that had the life sucked out of it by continuous wheat and tillage for the last thirty years, which would you choose.
    Exactly!

  17. #47
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: True or False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    It won't go tits up Dan but you will have a reasonably steep learning curve. If you remain focused on the end goal and make sure when something hasn't performed as well as you hoped you find out what the reason was and don't repeat it. It will always be fixable and as you're learning you may wish to still till the odd field.

    My only wonder with you is in what condition that SH drill you bought is in. Are all the discs not overworn and that they all line up perfectly?
    Front wavy discs are new. Rear double disks are worn down from original 400mm to 380mm and are still touching and have from inspection a set of shims to allow them to be tightened up if necessary. Bearings seem ok apart from one which may need replacing. As for whether they line up perfectly, I need to have a go. we're going to have a play in the next week or so on a stubble before we plough () for beet and we'll see then. Otherwise the drill looks pretty straight.

    I think maybe the Kuhn SD isn't the simplest drill in the world and has a lot of adjustable elements. Almost wish I'd gone for a SimTech drill but wasn't convinced it would follow contours etc and our stones would be lifting it out of the ground all the while. Happier with the individual coulter set up on the Kuhn. Seems to work pretty well for Ben Williams?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •