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Thread: Worming lambs

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    Worming lambs

    My December born lambs have been out on pasture since 1st January they are now 10 weeks old! Pasture was rested for at least 6 weeks before they went out! They have had heptovac and vercoxan! But when would I need to worm them first?

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Could you take faeces from the lambs only,and get your vets to do an egg count , would be cheaper than just random dosing.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    What sort of day time temps are required for eggs to start hatching do many eggs hatching when there are still frosty mornings?

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    Re: Worming lambs

    After a bit of reading I'm going to answer my own question. This is from the nadis February parasite forecast.

    "COCCIDIOSIS

    This is caused by microscopic parasites called coccidia, and is associated with high stocking rates. This year, factors such as shortage of bedding and potential nutritional problems could lead to an increased risk of coccidiosis. Other factors are poor levels of hygiene and other disease or nutritional problems.


    The common signs of coccidiosis are rapid weight loss and diarrhoea containing mucus and flecks of blood causing staining of the perineum and tail.
    Disease may appear in February, in intensively reared January-born lambs, particularly in heavily stocked sheds. Lambs show scour, dullness and abdominal pain, while some may die. Chronic disease may cause simply wasting and poor appetite. Gut damage can lead to continued poor growth, even after treatment.
    The early-born lambs tend to pick up infection passed by the ewes and increase the environmental contamination, often without becoming ill. Disease is then more common when later-born lambs are exposed to this increased level of infection.
    Diagnosis and treatment are not always straightforward, so veterinary advice should be sought. An important part of treatment will be moving the lambs from the highly contaminated environment if possible.
    Preventative measures should address the stocking and hygiene points mentioned above and may include a prophylactic treatment of all lambs around four or five weeks of age, or medicated creep feed.

    SHEEP NEMATODES

    Parasitic Gastroenteritis (PGE)

    Although PGE disease may occur in any month of the year, the risk is relatively low when temperatures are below 5 C as worm larvae are largely inactive. Current risk may be further reduced by the presence of snow. These inactive larvae can actually survive the winter well, and they may contribute heavily to the infective pasture larval population in the spring.
    Milder spells may lead to a continuing risk of PGE in store lambs and hoggs through the winter, particularly on paddocks heavily contaminated earlier in the season; for example, by an outbreak of clinical PGE. This can continue into February given suitable conditions. The need to dose outwintered store or replacement lambs during the winter can be assessed using faecal egg counts. Adult sheep may also develop PGE during the winter, often concurrently with diseases such as fascioliasis or Johne's disease, nutritional stress and/or late pregnancy.


    Milder spells may lead to a continuing risk of PGE in outwintered stock
    Contaminated pastures can only be considered "safe" after the majority of larvae have died. Rising spring temperatures cause the larvae to become more active and, if they are not ingested by a potential host, they use up their energy reserves and die. This often begins to occur around April, with pastures classed as low-risk from late June if no sheep have grazed them in the spring, or medium risk if grazed in the spring by adult non-lactating sheep.
    A veterinary parasite control plan for the forthcoming grazing season should be formulated on an individual farm basis including identifying any safe grazing available at turnout in spring (e.g. last year's cattle pastures) or in midsummer (e.g. aftermath for weaned lambs). Following the guidelines in the Sustainable Control of Parasites in Sheep (SCOPS) manual should reduce selection for anthelmintic resistance."

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    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
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    Re: Worming lambs

    It can depend on type of farm,stocking rates and what usually grazes the particular land .
    Mostly Cattle.
    50/50
    Mostly sheep
    All sheep.

    Its very unlikly to be warm enough for Nem and it would take up to 3 weeks for strongyle eggs to appear in the fecess from when they first appear.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    This year i have seen higher levels of Nem eggs than usual right the way through the winter (my lambs get FEC every 2 weeks throughout the year)---putting it down to the wet weather

    Before worming lambs do a FEC every time---foolish not to, its cheap and can save you lots iof time/money/effort

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    This year i have seen higher levels of Nem eggs than usual right the way through the winter (my lambs get FEC every 2 weeks throughout the year)---putting it down to the wet weather

    Before worming lambs do a FEC every time---foolish not to, its cheap and can save you lots iof time/money/effort
    Egg count ought to pick up cocci too, shouldn't it?

    Thats worth knowing with the price of Vecoxan...

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Cocci is harder to count (i find it hard anyway but a vet service should do better)
    Then you have to figure if the cocci is pathonogenic or not---

    I like to have an idea of where my FEC levels are headed, i have a graph going back quite a few years now that plots FEC against time/age of lambs , i also know stocking rates etc which all helps paint an infomative picture

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    Re: Worming lambs

    My lambs were born in January and are now eating creep fairly well. Thought I would drench mine with allverm next week. Normally have to do them every year and should help stop any trouble for a while.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    I would strongly advise all sheep farmers to test for worm drench resistance, easy enough to do and absolutely priceless. Surely we are all watching costs, without exception, so why treat lambs with something that may not work?

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    Re: Worming lambs

    For very young lambs I would first make absolutely sure they need worming and, as someone else has said do it on an individual basis rather than as a flock, then I use only panacur.
    Other wormers are 'harder' on the intestines of young lambs and are best used from 3 months plus.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Trouble is many farmers still haven't got the message about resistance or even using FEC as a tool----point in case, late last year i had just collected a FEC sample from some lambs and stopped to see a local farmer in the field who was bemoaning the fact that his lambs weren't doing well---he blamed worms and said he was going to drench them the next day with 'the cheapest MVF has'
    I asking him why he didn't take a FEC sample but was told it was all too much hassle and he 'knew' his lambs needed worming (despite being drenched 4 weeks earlier)
    Well we took a FEC sample from his lambs as they were right there and i said i would give him the result the next day----the results were low (240 EPG) with no Nem present so it wasn't really a problem as the lambs were on good grass

    I called him and left a message to this effect the next morning

    When i next saw him i asked how the lambs were and he said he had got my message but had drenched them anyway just to be safe, but the lambs still weren't looking good!
    After alot of testing and a couple of PMs it turns out that they were suffering from fluke damage (store lambs bought in from a wet/affected area)

    So he spent lots of time/effort/money treating sheep for a problem they didn't have

    Sad thing is i bet he would do the same all over again

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    Senior Member ladycrofter's Avatar
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by dexta39 View Post
    For very young lambs I would first make absolutely sure they need worming and, as someone else has said do it on an individual basis rather than as a flock, then I use only panacur.
    Other wormers are 'harder' on the intestines of young lambs and are best used from 3 months plus.
    +1 Your pasture sounds fairly clean and it is still cold. Definitely FEC test first. Is this your first time doing winter lambs? If so you will find your pattern over a few years. For instance now here I know that I have to worm for tapeworm in July or they will get it. But wormier resisitance is no joke now. My gut reaction is test if you're worried, but otherwise I would look at it in April.

    Plus we have the whole fluke issue - would they have picked anything up this early? Unlikely, but another thing to work into your program. I just wormed my ewe lambs with Allbex - worm and adult fluke - so hoepfully get anything left over that I didn't kill in late autumn. But these are hoggs, coming up to a year old in Spring.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    I agree Tim W, I think sheep farmers are still at risk of using any product that comes to hand - to make themselves feel better having treated their lambs! Like your neighbour. Job done, but a waste of time and money.
    Don't know how to change the mindset of so many.
    Would love to poll sheep producers and see how many have tested for resistance.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    It makes sense to know whats working IMO. I FEC before and after to check the effectiveness of whatever wormer I'm using. I then know what I have in my 'arsenal' that is effective. For example; I know Ivermectin and Levamisole both work and white wormers aren't worth bothering with.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    We are resistant to the white drenches and the levamisole, but the ivermectins are still effective. It has changed what we do and when. This year will be the true test, with the FEC pack and knowing the drenches are the right group - will take on what Tim W does and test fortnightly, as well as testing after treatment.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Socksitis View Post
    I agree Tim W, I think sheep farmers are still at risk of using any product that comes to hand - to make themselves feel better having treated their lambs! Like your neighbour. Job done, but a waste of time and money.
    Don't know how to change the mindset of so many.
    Would love to poll sheep producers and see how many have tested for resistance.
    I think the problem is the simple cost some vets charge for fec samples , coupled with lack of tuition to do your own across the country , its far easier and cheaper to just go in with the drench when you think they may need doing , wrong approach I know , you also have to factor in time to collect and take your sample , then wait for results,

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Well i'm not sure about that---lets look at the sums?

    Catch and dose 200 lambs --3 hrs? =45 labour = 200 doses wormer @ 10p=20
    A total of 65

    Take sample and deliver to vet ---2 hrs max? =30
    Vet charges ? 15/sample?
    Total 45
    Wait for results maybe 2 days (i think MVF vets will do it in store?)
    Vet calls with result
    You then make a decision to treat or not---could save you money/time and less chance of decreasing your tool kit in the fight against worms via drug resistance

    Of course if you have a larger mob of 500 lambs to treat then the savings are greater

    Tuition is available via Innovis (there used to be funding for it) or via some local vets---or from other farmers who already have the know how
    Maybe its something i should offer----simple FEC course , all you need is a cheap microscope from ebay (80) and a macmaster slide (12)
    Any takers locally?
    Did think about having a stand at market offering on the spot FEC service?

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    Senior Member andybk's Avatar
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    Re: Worming lambs

    yes I may be a taker, was going to have a go last year but time constraints got in the way , have the microscope and had a go with a kit, but really just need someone you can ask if what your looking at is the right thing and to interpret the results would be a simple course for someone

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Tim W, I think those of us with a FEC pack should be offering the service, even if it is just to the local neighbours, I know I would and I have spoken to them about it. I consider the greatest benefit to be live lambs not dead lambs because of ineffective worming.
    With SWHLI (South West Healthy Livestock Initiative) one would think the message is out there and the availability for the worm resistance testing at a reduced rate? Why are such schemes not offered across the country?

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    Well i'm not sure about that---lets look at the sums?

    Catch and dose 200 lambs --3 hrs? =45 labour = 200 doses wormer @ 10p=20
    A total of 65

    Take sample and deliver to vet ---2 hrs max? =30
    Vet charges ? 15/sample?
    Total 45
    Wait for results maybe 2 days (i think MVF vets will do it in store?)
    Vet calls with result
    You then make a decision to treat or not---could save you money/time and less chance of decreasing your tool kit in the fight against worms via drug resistance

    Of course if you have a larger mob of 500 lambs to treat then the savings are greater
    But:

    If the lambs need treating, you have wasted 2 or 3 days and the lambs will have got worse.

    And in what proportion of cases will the sample say that the lambs need dosing, so you still have 65 to pay.

    And what happens if the lambs are suffering from immature worm larvae which aren't laying eggs. I suppose when one or two die.........

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Of course thats a whole load more unknowns/maybe's in the pot but if you are on the ball 2 or 3 days shouldn't be catastrophic
    And to know what your FEc is and which way it id heading is worth a bit ?

    Either way i think it pays to test before you treat----and maybe there is a need for a better more accessable FEC service

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    Re: Worming lambs

    the drench ready to treat the lambs, had the opportunity to have the resistance test done, part funded, which I pushed for. Glad we did, meant we could take take the drench we had ready - a white drench to which they were resistant, back to MVF and get it changed. So how much did we save or how many did we save?

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Christ - if you get a fecal sample to my vet before 11am, you will have the results by 5pm.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by andybk View Post
    yes I may be a taker, was going to have a go last year but time constraints got in the way , have the microscope and had a go with a kit, but really just need someone you can ask if what your looking at is the right thing and to interpret the results would be a simple course for someone
    50 I think is cost of INOVIS tutorial FEC day, and I have to it was 50 well spent and a very interesting day out .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Last edited by b slicker; 22-02-13 at 06:31 PM.

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    Re: Worming lambs

    http://www.ceresfarm.co.nz/internalp...m#Introduction

    http://www.wormboss.com.au/

    we do FEC here get sheep in and do the test while haveing a brew not 100% tho depending on timeing of worm cycle they may not be sheding any eggs so test maybe low realy have to take other factors in to account weather rain fall grazeing etc etc i would not be baseing a drench program just on FEC a weekly test may show a trend and time to take action

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by JD-Kid View Post

    we do FEC here get sheep in and do the test while haveing a brew not 100% tho depending on timeing of worm cycle they may not be sheding any eggs so test maybe low realy have to take other factors in to account weather rain fall grazeing etc etc i would not be baseing a drench program just on FEC a weekly test may show a trend and time to take action
    This is how i do mine---test out in the field and make an instant decision based on all factors---- a graph built up over a season lets you know if the lambs are winning or losing the battle
    Those that don't test and just drench 'by eye' i regards as fools that are helping to increase drench resistance---these are the guys that the proposed re-classification of anthelmintics is aimed at , just a pity we may all get caught up in it

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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Socksitis View Post
    the drench ready to treat the lambs, had the opportunity to have the resistance test done, part funded, which I pushed for. Glad we did, meant we could take take the drench we had ready - a white drench to which they were resistant, back to MVF and get it changed. So how much did we save or how many did we save?
    JD's links are very interesting , but how can they tell resistance from visual examination of the eggs ? other than extra tests after drenching

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    Re: Worming lambs

    graph is a good idea and eazy to do a test in field just hold in one area with dogs get samples and test once home .. if in yards a test just backs up "by eye" some times just feed leading to probs

    we worked out restance to white by gut feeling they drench was not working followed up by a test showing a % of eggs still being shed after drenching should do a test useing all familys to see how they are working

    people out there don't even test there drench guns for the right dose or gun's working or even know the highest weight in the mob so can be under drenching in more ways than one ..

    intresting fed farmers here talking about vet scrip for drench they need a forken slapping for even thinking about it , don't think it will make any diffrence to be fair if on farm some simple things are not being done makeing sure the gun is giveing the right dose ,dose set right not just guessed and even put thumb over nozzle and try the gun to make sure seals/valves are not bypassing last but not least make sure drench family is working

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