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Thread: Worming lambs

  1. #61
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilO View Post
    Welcome back Creedmoor1, glad to see you've found us again.
    Thank you Neil, makes me feel like one of the family. Tried to PM but didn't seem to work (or maybe you got it half a dozen times, ooops!)

    Given the number of things to select for, we haven't attempted anything formal with low FEC or proven resilience. We do cull "shit factories" (not necessarily worm related). Biggest aids to us are long acting capsules in most ewes pre-lamb and fast finishing so lambs don't multiply up parasites. Graze relatively high in sward to reduce larval intake. About 75% of 2012 born lambs have gone now, just given the remainder their third drench.

  2. #62
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Creedmoor1 View Post
    Thank you Neil, makes me feel like one of the family. Tried to PM but didn't seem to work (or maybe you got it half a dozen times, ooops!)

    Given the number of things to select for, we haven't attempted anything formal with low FEC or proven resilience. We do cull "shit factories" (not necessarily worm related). Biggest aids to us are long acting capsules in most ewes pre-lamb and fast finishing so lambs don't multiply up parasites. Graze relatively high in sward to reduce larval intake. About 75% of 2012 born lambs have gone now, just given the remainder their third drench.
    What weights are you sending them at Creedmoor? Thats pretty impressive for the number of multiples you get.
    Also interested that you're grazing higher swards and still getting good growth rates.
    And yes, good to hear from you again

  3. #63
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    Re: Worming lambs

    use my FECPAK a fair bit but admittedly not has much as I should. all the same been at it for 7yrs and you can build up a good picture on your farm. but one warning it's not so effective early in the season for nemo. because a big hatch and the nemo doing damage before shedding eggs will quickly lead to dead lambs. if the FEC gives a low count but your gut feeling is there's been a big hatch, don't waste time just get on and drench.
    also many people say they have resistance to white drench but this is probably just for your average gut worm and the white is still very effective on nemo. I understand white drench is the best for nemo and is certainly still a very important part of my arsenal as it kills more stages of the nemo than the other drenches.

  4. #64
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by poorbuthappy View Post
    What weights are you sending them at Creedmoor? Thats pretty impressive for the number of multiples you get.
    Also interested that you're grazing higher swards and still getting good growth rates.
    And yes, good to hear from you again
    Hi PBH, good to be back. Killing at minimum 41 kg liveweight (so not huge), drafted about every 4 weeks or so. Average carcase 18.49 kg so far. We tailed 610 from 299 females mated (96 of them hoggets ); I have 81 ewe lambs and 15 ram lambs on my keeper list, swapped 10 for calves as baby lambs and expect to keep about 4 killers (arthritis, etc.). That accounts for 110, leaving exactly 500 to kill. Have killed 377 so far, so that's 75.4% of expected slaughter lambs. Not as heavy as a lot of you guys go but it suits our system. Has gone dry now so good to have most of them away, can concentrate on ewe condition and getting hoggets ready for their first mating.

    Regarding higher swards, we think leader:follower system is critical post-weaning. Lambs graze first, pick clover, herbs (chicory, plantain) and good grass leaf. They're followed by ewes and/or breeding cows (sometimes young cattle in first) to eat the bulk remaining and we'll use the tractor if we have to. Some lambs rotate on lucerne. Feed quality is vital for fast growth but low parasite burden, suitable vaccinations and appropriate minerals are all important to us, too. Having lambs weaned heavy is step one, though - 22% of slaughter lambs were killed before weaning; remaining lambs from the ewes averaged 35 kg (at about 105 days) and the hoggets' lambs averaged 33 (at about 90 days). Would be on a hiding to nothing if you have bulk multiples but don't have the milk output to match!

    Had meant to do a big summary of what happened because I know there are some interested out there but OH suffered a hideous hand injury 5 and a half weeks ago... doing my work and his has kept me off the forum a bit!

  5. #65
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Thanks for the update Creedmoor. Sorry to hear about the OH. Hope recovery goes well.

  6. #66

    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Creedmoor1 View Post
    Probably not all that surprising, JD. Suppressing worms requires immune response and you can't do it for "free". There's an energy cost which is every bit likely to eat into weight gain. The fast gaining lambs with higher egg output didn't have such an immune cost but were effectively adding to the burden for next time around. Helps show why minimising larval intake has more production payoff than selecting for low FEC.


    Minimising larval intake has a better payoff than breeding for lower FEC for only the time that it takes to reduce the average of the adult FEC to almost half and lamb FEC to reduce by 15%. (I'm involved with modelling this response based on real data supplied from my former Romney flock where Adult FEC decreased by 66% and Early Lamb FEC by 24% over 15 years despite all production traits advancing at levels in the top 5% of flocks in SIL).
    It is a nonsense to assume that one has to breed host resistance to lofty heights. This is because pasture contamination is largely initiated by ewes and the autumn spike in L3 numbers is the results of lamb derived contamination post 10 weeks of age.
    The classic research work was done in Australia by Amy Bell for her PHD. Resistant lines significantly out performed the susceptibles when mobs were run apart, but when mixed, the resistant animals performed at slightly lower levels as the resistant animals spent energy cleaning up the other's mess. This also showed that once a flock has an inherent level of resistance to worms the payback is significant and it costs nothing more. The cost is the years taken in developing a flock which has elevated resistance, ie. has a mixture of both susceptible and resistant sheep.
    Minimising larval intake is the goal and it can be done by both management as you guys are doing, or by sourcing the appropriate genetics, or both. While sheep keep shitting on tomorrows lunch, we will always have to devise options of reducing L3 intake. I personally look upon reducing parasitism as I see easy birthing etc. ....it is all part of low cost sheep farming where genetics offer the longterm solution.

  7. #67
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    Re: Worming lambs

    whats Jp done to his hand thats a real bummer .. nice write up in the NZ farmer weekly by the way always read when you have a posting in there

    not a bad weight to be killing at tho

    the weight around weaning for so many not to be sneesed at ours over the whole lot at weaning maybe 29 Kg ( 27.5 Kg with ewe lambs already taken out )

  8. #68
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Thanks for the excellent summary GO. There are so many choices about where to put breeding emphasis and how much we cangain genetically or from management. I'm sure relatively early lamb kill is gold for us... Goodbye to all those little parasite multipliers. Capsules in ewes are double-edged sword but pay big dividends at our fecundity level. We are managing refugia with singles and fat twins but only time will tell how long we get out of this strategy.JD, I'll PM you a pic of the damage. Not pretty but coming along. 5.5 weeks down now but looks like at least another 4 before he's very functional. Got my lovely old Sunbeam Slimline back in action!

  9. #69

    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Creedmoor1 View Post
    Thanks for the excellent summary GO. There are so many choices about where to put breeding emphasis and how much we cangain genetically or from management. I'm sure relatively early lamb kill is gold for us... Goodbye to all those little parasite multipliers. Capsules in ewes are double-edged sword but pay big dividends at our fecundity level. We are managing refugia with singles and fat twins but only time will tell how long we get out of this strategy.JD, I'll PM you a pic of the damage. Not pretty but coming along. 5.5 weeks down now but looks like at least another 4 before he's very functional. Got my lovely old Sunbeam Slimline back in action!
    Every lamb producing system in every part of the world would have to claim lamb growth as "the holy grail" for profitability of the enterprise as all those things, like less parasites, contribute/accumulate to the success of the enterprise. Median days to slaughter is a Key Production Indicator (KPI) that farmers should become familiar with and regionally benchmark against as it offers pointers to failings on individual farms, like feed quality and parasite challenge.
    Over the last 3 years we have had whole mobs of lambs growing 456gms/day from birth (allocated 4.5kgs mean birth weight) to weaning at 102 days. This mean't that all lambs were killable including every triplet reared lamb. All this on hill country at 1000 ft above sea level in South Otago. The only cost they incurred was a drench at 10 weeks to prevent growth slow down due to Nematodirus (property has a history of nem.)

  10. #70
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Ok, interesting stuff. Couple of thoughts.

    1. GO would it pay to keep breeds separate when in the process of switching to a more resistant flock?
    Ie, presume ( for manage purposes) that all lambs by a high fec index sire are more resistant and so run them in different groups to lambs by existing terminal sires. Or is it too simplistic an approach?

    2. Talking to a farmer the other day who creep feeds all his March / April born lambs to get them away asap. He believes he gets his money back in being able to look after his ewes better through autumn winter.
    This year we can see he was quids in, but he always does it. Its a tempting idea. You kiwi guys would struggle with the concept of feeding so much concentrate I guess, but JD, what sort of lift in average lamb sale price would you see if you fed say 5 of cake / head? If majority of your lambs went fat instead of many going store, as I appreciate you have to clear them out, would that cover the extra feed costs?

  11. #71
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    Every lamb producing system in every part of the world would have to claim lamb growth as "the holy grail" for profitability of the enterprise as all those things, like less parasites, contribute/accumulate to the success of the enterprise. Median days to slaughter is a Key Production Indicator (KPI) that farmers should become familiar with and regionally benchmark against as it offers pointers to failings on individual farms, like feed quality and parasite challenge.
    Over the last 3 years we have had whole mobs of lambs growing 456gms/day from birth (allocated 4.5kgs mean birth weight) to weaning at 102 days. This mean't that all lambs were killable including every triplet reared lamb. All this on hill country at 1000 ft above sea level in South Otago. The only cost they incurred was a drench at 10 weeks to prevent growth slow down due to Nematodirus (property has a history of nem.)
    So that makes them an average of 51 kg. You might have to forgive me for finding that a little hard to believe. At what lambing percentage? What insane weight were the big singles that offset the "not killable" triplets, given such a mob average?

  12. #72
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    Re: Worming lambs

    51 Kg and a high yeild they would lose money as going over weight

    our tops PBH at weaning drafted off at 34.5 Kg avg Lw 38 Kg dead weight 16.96 Kg about 85 dollars

    a 34 Kg store 76.50 on farm ... killed maybe 68-70 dollars

    also comes down to what the store guys will buy got to be a wee bit carefull not to get too big or price is too high for them , so would mean wean earlyer

    cake /grain/etc etc targeted at the top stores ummm depends on which way you look at it
    1 feed ewes better higher milking better early grass higher weaning weights ewes in better order for summer
    2 wean lambs and run as a finshing unit

    1 is going to give us a better all round return lower animal health ,higher lambing % higher lamb selling weights , to do that i'm better to spend money on geans fuel and seed

    it's that hard one realy last year the maths would have stacked up to grain finsh lambs this year i don't think so
    also once you look at scale 5 pound a head let's say 10 dollars a head kiwi money for us thats 40 000 dollars
    10 new rams at 1000 bucks each , 20 ton of urea 3 K of fuel and 7 grand of seeds thats about 40 000 long term i think a better investment than short term weight
    i work on snowball's get the systems rolling and it will incress

  13. #73

    Re: Worming lambs

    [QUOTE=poorbuthappy;6525]Ok, interesting stuff. Couple of thoughts.

    1. GO would it pay to keep breeds separate when in the process of switching to a more resistant flock?
    Ie, presume ( for manage purposes) that all lambs by a high fec index sire are more resistant and so run them in different groups to lambs by existing terminal sires. Or is it too simplistic an approach?
    My thoughts;
    1.The affect on performance between the resistant and susceptible lambs is so small that you would need to measure using trial protocol.
    2. All lambs are born naive to parasite challenge irrespective of their parents genotype for host resistance. Those bred from high Resistance Index sires will develop their "anti worm" mechanisms earlier and stronger than those lambs by sires where such breeding goals are absent. Therefore if the mob is all destined for slaughter and being killed before 5 months of age (about the mean age of seeing large differences appearing in faecal egg output between individuals) no difference in performance will occur.
    3. The greatest affect will be seen in ewes during their production phase (late pregnancy to weaning) if running with undrenched susceptible ewes causing a challenge. However those susceptibles will also be affected. Suggest you drench ewes in the first couple of generations of introducing resistant genetics and cease ewe drenching once monitoring indicates that the worm burdon no longer warrants treatment.
    4. Sequential sampling in resistant flocks often shows FEC rising at certain times of the year, reflecting pasture contamination levels and/or reproduction stress periods, then the sheep's own defence mechanisms kick into gear and the FEC levels collapse to near zero. A flock with this pattern does not need treatment. My old Romney flock were like this when I had reduced FEC genetically by about 40%. After this level the adult ewes become net cleaners of pasture rather than pollutors.
    5. As sheep are selected for more productivity, especially the traits, Lambing %, Growth rate and Fleece weight, the susceptibilty increases. This is well documented with a small negative correllation of between productivity and FEC. However this accumulates making highly selected flocks for performance more in need of protection by anthelmintic treatments or by improvements in Host Resistance and/or Resilience. It is of much interest to me that semen from some industry leading rams from the early 1980s was used in the B+LNZ Central Progeny Test to validate how far breeders have got with their breeding programmes using SIL technology. Although the progeny were hugely superceded by modern rams for all performance traits, they were among the better for Resistance, showing how far towards susceptibility those breeders are going by ignoring this trait which moves in the opposite direction with every gain made in the other traits.

  14. #74

    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by Creedmoor1 View Post
    So that makes them an average of 51 kg. You might have to forgive me for finding that a little hard to believe. At what lambing percentage? What insane weight were the big singles that offset the "not killable" triplets, given such a mob average?
    Three years of results, mob size averaged from 411 to 465 ewes rearing at 164% (range 158-171% mainly artificially inseminated hence lower %). Results independantly assessed (only preweaning growth given here) weaned at 102 days (2010 the year of the severe snow storm in the deep south)
    Singles: 2010 born 510 g/d, 2011 605, 2012 580.
    Twins: 2010 420, 2011 460, 2012 445.

    We took a bunch of lambs to the Lawrence Farmarama, the heaviest single at weaning was 65.5 kgs, all others over 60. The lightest twin we took was 44kgs at weaning but extreme muscling.
    Needless to say these are not destined for slaughter (unless faulty) and the result of a 3 way cross. Dam Poll Dorset x Texel, Sire Charollais.
    The lambs by Ile de France out of Poll Dorset grow at a similar rate (the heaviest lambs of all crosses were IdF x singles, but because most were by natural mating the % of multiples was higher).
    A month after weaning they were scanned for Eye Muscle area, half of the mob (both sexes) had EMA over 20 cm2. Heaviest single at scanning now 78kgs.

    After the first year I wondered if the result could be repeated. Now with 3 years data reflecting the pasture growth of each season I am convinced.

  15. #75
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    Re: Worming lambs

    I'm hopeing to see the same kinda things here maybe not on the same scale but a bit better gains over what we have and our mangerment .. don't think we will see the high gains a day our place a bit behind that farm as far as devloment goes

    our old place in north otago (creedmoor's been there ) would do better than here just better sheep country
    PBH some of my moneys gone in to those kinda ram's in fact those rams ;-)
    and to get closer to those gains i brought a sprayer and another direct drill (should have splashed out on a rain maker too HAHAHA)

  16. #76
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    Re: Worming lambs

    had the mcmaster slides this morning , presumably the sample goes in the chamber between the top and bottom slide with a pipette , is it dished ? it looks flat from the side ,

  17. #77
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Yes fill it with a pipette. Keep stirring the solution as you fill the pipette, breath into the slide to moisten it - it will fill more evenly. Hold the slide at an angle and gently fill, trying to avoid bubbles.
    Its not dished, surface tension will keep it in there. But I presume you've had some direction on how to prepare the solution?

  18. #78
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    Re: Worming lambs

    Quote Originally Posted by poorbuthappy View Post
    Yes fill it with a pipette. Keep stirring the solution as you fill the pipette, breath into the slide to moisten it - it will fill more evenly. Hold the slide at an angle and gently fill, trying to avoid bubbles.
    Its not dished, surface tension will keep it in there. But I presume you've had some direction on how to prepare the solution?
    yes have a kit , and good electric powerful microscope from a car boot (10) and had a go before , but didn't have the mc slide , was difficult counting numbers with ordinary slides , as my previous posts its just recognising the various eggs and osists , there is a print out in the kit but can be a bit confusing .

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