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Thread: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

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    Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    On Today Programme the true situation is beginning to appear in the post Brexit debate!
    An Oxford economist who it would seem is advising Michael Gove in the post Brexit system of farm support said farmers were addicted to subsidies. He also said the 3 billion that farmers get is only the tip of the iceberg. He said farmers paid less tax on diesel for their farm vehicles, did not pay business rate tax(agreed), got better capital tax relief(disputed, what about entrepreneurs tax relief?)
    It is a sad fact that when the subsidy system changed from production related , it left the industry open to huge criticism, , a lot of it justified, especially in the case of huge landowners money for merely owning land. I was always against the present system of payment, and I have been proved right big time.Farmers are now amongst the most despised of citizens, largely due to the lack of understanding of the overall picture.UK farmers are going to find themselves in competition with farmers in europe and the rest of the world. This was pointed out very ably by Guy Smith, who in my opinion is a star, and a true asset to the farming industry. Even he, though, was not able to point out all the inaccuracies put out by Peter Helm the economist.
    Guy Smith has one helluva job in putting a balanced, responsible view to the public, we should support him somehow.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Yep....nothing like a well fed, fat bellied economist!

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Sorry but I just don't understand all this "subsidy to farmers" nonsense. It is not a subsidy to farmers. It is a food subsidy, not a farming subsidy. It has been there, in various guises, since WW2 when the country wasn't producing enough food for it's inhabitants and we had to rely on other countries to help us out. Without these "subsidies" U.K. farmers would not be able to produce food at the price that Joe Public would pay and, in a lot of cases, could not afford.

    Starve a nation of bare necessities for long enough and civil rest will ensue. So every government has to make sure that there is enough food in the shops. The tragedy today is that a, a lot of people really are not concerned about what they eat and how it's produced, and b, there is a multitude of countries that can produce food, and get it over here, for a lot less money than we can produce it ourselves. Productions standards are, in a lot of cases, inferior to ours but I would speculate that somewhere between 60% and 80% are not bothered by this.

    And for the last few years this "subsidy" has been cleverly sold, not only as "environmentally friendly" to the man on the Clapham omnibus but also as a bribe to those who farm the land and produce the food. "Don't do anything to interfere with the newts, and the bats. Don't cut the hedges until we say you can. You must grow at least 3 different crops in certain circumstances. And if you kill any raptors, badgers, or indeed anything that we decide to place on the protected species list you will go straight to jail. You will not pass Go. You will not collect 200" The latter with apologies to the game of Monopoly. If you abide by all the rules then we will give you some money but woe betide you if you even put so much as a foot wrong.

    When I was a young boy I knew hunger. Not just because tea was late one night, I have known what it's like to go without food for a day or two. I tell those who will listen to me that I have been with food and I have also been without. With is better - trust me.
    Last edited by zaza; 30-07-17 at 01:54 PM.

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    Senior Member LALANS's Avatar
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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    I think there is an African sayings which goes something like this,
    'a man with full stomach has many problems but a man with an empty stomach has only one'

    The problem with the current system i.e. the CAP is that it is neither common, nor is it agricultural, nor is it a policy.
    To me area payments simply serve to enrich already very wealthy landowners to the detriment of the rural economy and good standing of the vast majority of hardworking bona fide farmers.

    The best thing to do is keep the markets under supplied at all times.

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    Senior Member b slicker's Avatar
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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    The majority of those who discredit agricultural subsidies are paid by the state and are thus 100% subsidised.

    It's also a fact that the private sector pays the wages, taxes and pensions of the public sector, but all political decisions are made by the public sector.

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Jack how will U.K. Farmers compete with the subsidised European farmers? I would have thought it would be impossible in that a lot of EU farmers produce a commodity and are price takers at whatever price because they have to produce something to get the brown envelope. It's almost like producing something is a necessary evil to get the envelope! How can U.K. Farmers compete against that? Or have I got the whole thing wrong? Thanks.

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Quote Originally Posted by GALCAM View Post
    Jack how will U.K. Farmers compete with the subsidised European farmers? I would have thought it would be impossible in that a lot of EU farmers produce a commodity and are price takers at whatever price because they have to produce something to get the brown envelope. It's almost like producing something is a necessary evil to get the envelope! How can U.K. Farmers compete against that? Or have I got the whole thing wrong? Thanks.
    I may be wrong, but at the start of present system of single farm payment, you did not even have to produce to get the payment.
    Ever since the referendum it has been a factor that when our government get rid of single farm payments, we will be competing with European farmers who will still be subsidised.
    It is interesting to speculate what will be the outcome of that. One will be obvious, the decline of British agriculture, or at least a progression in to more and more bigger industrialised units, with less attention to environmental issues.
    I do fear for the future of British Agriculture, especially with people like Gove in charge.
    Just like the Brexit negotiations, we have politicians negotiating whose only real understanding of the issues is derived from attention seeking media headlines, with no real understanding of a complex industry.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    . . . ., we will be competing with European farmers who will still be subsidised.
    . . . .
    Unless, of course, the Gov puts an import duty on imports of the commodities that the EU is still subsidizing in an attempt to "level the playing field".

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Duties could be imposed but how will they impact the price British consumers have to pay? That and the euro heading for parity with Stg will make a lot of imported goods very expensive. I wonder how this will all play out.

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Quote Originally Posted by GALCAM View Post
    Duties could be imposed but how will they impact the price British consumers have to pay? That and the euro heading for parity with Stg will make a lot of imported goods very expensive. I wonder how this will all play out.
    On "this side of the pond" we face that situation every day - when the Canadian dollar is low (compared to the US) items we manufacture / grow / etc. are very competitive on foreign markets - when the Canadian dollar is at (or near) par with the US, our exports are not as competitive but imported items are very favorable.

    In the last 3 years, our dollar has gone from near-par with the US dollar to about 70% of the US dollar ($1 US ~= $0.70 Canadian).

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    On "this side of the pond" we face that situation every day - when the Canadian dollar is low (compared to the US) items we manufacture / grow / etc. are very competitive on foreign markets - when the Canadian dollar is at (or near) par with the US, our exports are not as competitive but imported items are very favorable.

    In the last 3 years, our dollar has gone from near-par with the US dollar to about 70% of the US dollar ($1 US ~= $0.70 Canadian).
    It is somewhat surprising that the Canadian dollar can get so weak.
    Like Australia, Canada is relatively strong in natural resources, surely. You have only to see the trainloads stuff going across the rockies to see the export potential.
    The UK has nothing like that to offer, it is becoming an overpopulated country with very little to offer. Even its past industrial strength has been sold abroad, we do not have a British car industry left, we have to import coal and oil, so how do we support even more population?
    Jack Caley
    PS I cannot see our government putting on tariffs to increase the price of food.

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    Re: Farmers Subsidy Junkees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    . . .
    Like Australia, Canada is relatively strong in natural resources, surely. You have only to see the trainloads stuff going across the rockies to see the export potential.
    . . . .
    Our biggest customer for our natural recourses and farm products is the US - if they weren't "right next door" we would be a "third world nation" like most other "resource rich countries". you have to remember, there are about 10 times as many people in the US than there are in Canada - a very strong economic driver.

    As you have probably noted in the news, our NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) is just starting to be re-negotiated - it will be interesting to see the result as when it went into place most "duties" were removed (except the protectionist ones that pop up now and then).

    One of my biggest concerns is the flow of private information - Trump wants all provisions for Canadian governments keeping private information in Canada removed but Trump removed the Canadian exemption from the NSA's ability to access any NON-American information stored or processed in the US.

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