Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 70

Thread: No till: preparing for a wet year

  1. #1
    shakerator
    Guest

    No till: preparing for a wet year

    I thought it would be interesting to understand what ideas/plans, if any, committed no tillers would put in place for a wet year, e.g. 100mm rain august, 100mm September. Would you resort to broadcasting cover crops in standing cereals to wick out moisture? Would you consider broadcasting for crop establishment? Drilling shallower without a pre em and minimise smearing? How do you think lodged crops would affect the following no till establishment?

    Or would the tillage tackle make a return?

    I know this scenario seems a long way away given hosepipe bans etc but its something im nervous of and can change quickly. If it were to stay wet as long as its been dry, i feel much of the current no till momentum could be lost.....does it have to be??

  2. #2
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Every year is a wet year here!

    If you can get your OM to increase then it should hold a lot more water. Otherwise I really think it helps to have seed placement, depth control, firming and slot closing as separate operations so you can twiddle with them accordingly.

    http://www.dakotalakes.com/Publications/mud.pdf

  3. #3
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    The Claydon SR with tyres removed is probably the best wet weather drill I have ever come across and we kept it the last 2 years as an insurance policy to work when it was too wet for the rapid

    It would go in conditions that you really shouldn't be drilling it

    now we no longer have it it's bound to be a wash out this year !!

  4. #4
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Every year is a wet year here!

    If you can get your OM to increase then it should hold a lot more water. Otherwise I really think it helps to have seed placement, depth control, firming and slot closing as separate operations so you can twiddle with them accordingly.

    http://www.dakotalakes.com/Publications/mud.pdf


    do you believe you'd be as far down the no till route if on heavier soil will?

  5. #5
    Dockers
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    We had 174mm in August and 134mm in September last year ! 2011 .Hampshire was very wet. Still dd'd all wheat ,started 24th Sept, finnished 14 Oct ( 1st wheat after stripped Linseed ) All looks fantastic.

    Hope it does not get wetter than that.

  6. #6
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    do you believe you'd be as far down the no till route if on heavier soil will?
    Yeah I think so. I think longer term the benefits on heavy land are even greater to be honest.

    But I do think the right gear is important.

  7. #7
    Hartwig
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    shakerator,
    many thoughts are already said here: http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=56017

    I had in july 156 mm, august 225, september 140 and then I got wheat drilled from 28th september to 4th october under reasonable conditions, but when wheat was 3 to 8 days in the ground, heavy rains flooded again, so germinating seedlings were sitting in flooded slots, which was really bad !!
    Then in october 68 mm, november 12 mm, december 121 mm and january this year 105 mm, so highest saturation in the soil continuously, low oxygen, etc.
    Wheat is struggling up to now, all ploughed fields look far better, those drilled in mid-november look similar to mine drilled last days in september. Will made an important point of having depth control, seed placing and firming as single operations - under these terrible conditions !! If it had stayed dry after seeding, everything would have been fine here, Im sure. Soil is very forgiving after a few years if it is a bit sticky at drilling - as long as it stays dry or moist after drilling, but not turns into wet. Then the use of a simple drill like the Moore is very limited and questionable.

  8. #8
    foxcover
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Spend a bit of time on your drainage

    Jet drains, clear dykes, mole plough, new drains etc etc

  9. #9
    agricontract
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    The Claydon SR with tyres removed is probably the best wet weather drill I have ever come across and we kept it the last 2 years as an insurance policy to work when it was too wet for the rapid

    It would go in conditions that you really shouldn't be drilling it

    now we no longer have it it's bound to be a wash out this year !!
    Did you use ski boards ?

  10. #10
    Tomsewell
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Worms wouldn't believe how important they were until we dug a soil pit for Robert Plumbs visit last week. Our topsoil is 12" deep but the worms were down a good 4 ft deep. the amount they aerate the soil and help with structure is amazing. ALso amazed me how deep the roots were going down. We dug a 6 ft deep hole and the linseed roots were down to the bottom of the hole!
    No till should take a lot of rain better than a potential pudding created by a disc and tine tillage train.

  11. #11
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartwig View Post
    shakerator,
    many thoughts are already said here: http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=56017

    I had in july 156 mm, august 225, september 140 and then I got wheat drilled from 28th september to 4th october under reasonable conditions, but when wheat was 3 to 8 days in the ground, heavy rains flooded again, so germinating seedlings were sitting in flooded slots, which was really bad !!
    Then in october 68 mm, november 12 mm, december 121 mm and january this year 105 mm, so highest saturation in the soil continuously, low oxygen, etc.
    Wheat is struggling up to now, all ploughed fields look far better, those drilled in mid-november look similar to mine drilled last days in september. Will made an important point of having depth control, seed placing and firming as single operations - under these terrible conditions !! If it had stayed dry after seeding, everything would have been fine here, Im sure. Soil is very forgiving after a few years if it is a bit sticky at drilling - as long as it stays dry or moist after drilling, but not turns into wet. Then the use of a simple drill like the Moore is very limited and questionable.
    Hartwig
    We were faced with very similar problems in 2007/08 and I have to say we still have not got our rotation back in order..farming is a very long-term business....
    My solution for a wet season will be to invest in a Simtech-T-Sem which I can use to plant spring beans and OSR (and w.wheat in a wet year). I will also be looking to invest in a 100hp+ tractor with possibly turf tyres which will enable us to travel when soil conditions less than ideal..

  12. #12
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by agricontract View Post
    Did you use ski boards ?
    no - if it's really wet it's best used with no ski boards, wheels or following harrow at all

  13. #13
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartwig View Post
    Will made an important point of having depth control, seed placing and firming as single operations - under these terrible conditions !! If it had stayed dry after seeding, everything would have been fine here, Im sure. Soil is very forgiving after a few years if it is a bit sticky at drilling - as long as it stays dry or moist after drilling, but not turns into wet. Then the use of a simple drill like the Moore is very limited and questionable.
    I wonder if Sumo could give the moore a bit a redesign to accomodate the separate things - I'm pretty sure its not a john deere patent nowadays? It would make it a much better drill then in my view. It is a really important feature to have.

    Also been told to just seed where the moisture is so if its wet just seed shallower if you can - but getting some cover over seed still.

  14. #14
    SimonC
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    Hartwig
    We were faced with very similar problems in 2007/08 and I have to say we still have not got our rotation back in order..farming is a very long-term business....
    My solution for a wet season will be to invest in a Simtech-T-Sem which I can use to plant spring beans and OSR (and w.wheat in a wet year). I will also be looking to invest in a 100hp+ tractor with possibly turf tyres which will enable us to travel when soil conditions less than ideal..
    So Jim, where did you get that idea from


  15. #15
    fred
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Do they work in the damp.

    Will that Dwayne Beck link was highly interesting

  16. #16
    mbsrhol
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Also been told to just seed where the moisture is so if its wet just seed shallower if you can - but getting some cover over seed still.
    I know it will get shot down in flames but I think getting the seed into a good clean slot is more important than soil coverage. I find there is plenty of moisture for germination available from the local humidity of the drilling slot. In those circumstances though slug monitoring is critical.

  17. #17
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by mbsrhol View Post
    I know it will get shot down in flames but I think getting the seed into a good clean slot is more important than soil coverage. I find there is plenty of moisture for germination available from the local humidity of the drilling slot. In those circumstances though slug monitoring is critical.
    Don't neccessarily disagree with that. Ideally you want to do both I guess.

    Fred - Dwayne sent me a couple of other presentations the other day - I'll stick them on the sticky thing above. I reckon he wouldn't be averse to coming over and speaking (in France and Germany as well) if I knew we'd get enough interest and some financial help.

  18. #18
    kpa
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsewell View Post
    Worms wouldn't believe how important they were until we dug a soil pit for Robert Plumbs visit last week. Our topsoil is 12" deep but the worms were down a good 4 ft deep. the amount they aerate the soil and help with structure is amazing. ALso amazed me how deep the roots were going down. We dug a 6 ft deep hole and the linseed roots were down to the bottom of the hole!
    No till should take a lot of rain better than a potential pudding created by a disc and tine tillage train.
    Tom
    Not sure they were the linseed roots, thought they were more like roots from the last crop Maybe the worms were following them down

  19. #19
    Tomsewell
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Thanks kpa I think your probably right, still amazed a crop can get its roots that far down. Would love to come over and visit in the next month or two?

  20. #20
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonC View Post
    So Jim, where did you get that idea from

    ...err well perhaps....do we bring up the Bertini drill at this point or leave that for another day......

  21. #21
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    FWIW, with the amounts of rain you suggest, we found ploughing or mintill was not all it is cracked up to be either. If we did not get ploughed up early and dry, then we had big problems with wet putty, smearing of furrow bottom and what amounted in effect to a concrete block factory.

    Never been let down by the Moore yet, even into some fairly cheesey clay, though as you say, you need to be very careful with depth control.

    Not sure any drill/tractor tyre would cope if it is really wet and slug pressure would become too high for us. Better not to drill at all or at least be patient.

  22. #22
    SimonC
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    ...err well perhaps....do we bring up the Bertini drill at this point or leave that for another day......
    Yes Jim, the Bertini is a dry weather drill, but if I can have three drills on my smallholding, why all this talk about looking for the perfect no-till machine. I would have thought that all these guys with their six figure SFPs could easily justify a little green drill in the back of the shed as a bit of wet weather insurance.

  23. #23
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonC View Post
    Yes Jim, the Bertini is a dry weather drill, but if I can have three drills on my smallholding, why all this talk about looking for the perfect no-till machine. I would have thought that all these guys with their six figure SFPs could easily justify a little green drill in the back of the shed as a bit of wet weather insurance.
    Simon
    I totally agree with your comments and in an ideal world I would have a disc drill (probably a JD 750) and tined machine such as the Simtech-T-Sem (or perhaps a Claydon) which should cover us for most cropping and soil conditions...as you say there is not a perfect no-till drill...

  24. #24
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    For us, anything with close spaced tines on it struggles with trash in dry conditions, never mind in the wet.

    Anybody know how the Simtech T sem copes with trash? Do those front discs really cut a path for the boots through wet straw?

    The Moore may not be perfect, but it will at least run over a heap.

    I like the T sem concept generally though.

    Don't some people recommend a pair of discs cutting a trench like miniature Opel wheels for wet conditions? Great Plains maybe?

  25. #25
    TC
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Don't some people recommend a pair of discs cutting a trench like miniature Opel wheels for wet conditions? Great Plains maybe?[/QUOTE]

    Been there with GP and had very little success in wet. The claydon is much more reliable.
    In our climate we are much more likely to be wet in the autumn than dry.
    Slugs seem to be the biggest problem if the summer is wet and the most reliable solution is cultivation in my experience.

  26. #26
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Discs in the wet have never been very successful for us...you need weight to get them to penetrate...and then you get smeared compacted slits...if it stays wet they fill with water and the seed rots and if it dries out the slot opens and the seed to soil contact is lost...
    IMO a tined drill will always be the best option in a wet season..

  27. #27
    benferg
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    If it get's really wet here you need a rice planter.

    Normally we have isues with penitration when it's bone dry, so even if it's a bit on the wet side you can have problems getting the drill in the ground?

  28. #28
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Been out drilling spring barley directly into stubble turnip aftermath with the Unidrill.

    Yes, even here in dry east midlands it was still perhaps a bit sticky in places in that top layer where the sheep had poached it slightly. And the rollers did tighten that damp soil down quite hard. Hope it comes through . Last year we ploughed and lost the moisture and had very patchy emergence - all at different stages.

    The only things that deters me from a tine drill (apart from the expense) is the horsepower requirement and the possibility of trash getting raked up. My straw chopper is rubbish but I am stuck with it.

    A wet year could be a slug nightmare, but we have lost big patches to slugs with the plough/power harrow system as well.

    Basically nothing works that well in the wet. Father always opted for plough and cultivate and drill close behind without rollers. That's why the MF30 and its following harrows are still with us.

    At the end of the day, pragmatism overcomes idealism.

  29. #29
    charlie brown
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    The little Sim Tech is a pretty good drill for us even when wet (although it hasnt been a really wet season yet)- but we have had problems with the rear roller on our chalky boulder clay bunging up, and its a big job to clear! the pressure washer being the best solution taking at least an hour to clear!

    We have tried a spiral roller with cleaning stars but that is not the ideal solution because it will lift the whole drill out of work as it rides over lumps.

    We are seriously looking at two tyres at each end of a bar to replace the rear roller for extreme conditions, that should give us a pretty weatherproof system, coupled to a light well shod tractor.

    I have often thought a little Mooroka tracked machine would be an even better option, they make a very small machine with rubber tracks, but whether it would lift or pull the Sim tech I know not!

    cb

  30. #30
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: No till: preparing for a wet year

    Quote Originally Posted by peasantman View Post
    Been out drilling spring barley directly into stubble turnip aftermath with the Unidrill.

    Yes, even here in dry east midlands it was still perhaps a bit sticky in places in that top layer where the sheep had poached it slightly. And the rollers did tighten that damp soil down quite hard. Hope it comes through . Last year we ploughed and lost the moisture and had very patchy emergence - all at different stages.

    The only things that deters me from a tine drill (apart from the expense) is the horsepower requirement and the possibility of trash getting raked up. My straw chopper is rubbish but I am stuck with it.

    A wet year could be a slug nightmare, but we have lost big patches to slugs with the plough/power harrow system as well.

    Basically nothing works that well in the wet. Father always opted for plough and cultivate and drill close behind without rollers. That's why the MF30 and its following harrows are still with us.

    At the end of the day, pragmatism overcomes idealism.
    Seedhawk doesn't take much hp.

    Why are you stuck with your chopper? - I think that is very important to get right. Can this help? (apart from the cost does this concept appeal?)
    http://www.needhamag.com/innovative_..._solutions.php

    I think for slugs being able to firm the seed in on top (not the soil but the seed itself) is a big help and again to be able to keep depth, placement, seed covering and down pressure separate helps a lot in the wet - but if its too wet its too wet but the seed won't care so we are back to getting the best out of our technology again!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •