Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 126

Thread: Brexit, yes or no?

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NB Canada
    Posts
    491

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    To be fair, that's because it is a bad idea.

    It creates uncertainty and disruption and it's a wholly unnecessary risk that could have been avoided and th best case scenario at the end of it is not some magical land of economic milk and honey but a chance that we manage to remain something like as prosperous as we are now, and the prize for wading through all this shit is some ideological notion of sovereignty which will ultimately mean nothing to the average voter's day to day life.

    even if you think this intangible future pay off is worth all the uncertainty in the meantime, just pause for a second and take a look at the incompetents and idiots who we have to steer us through this mess, and then tell me you're confident it will all be sorted to our advantage.
    . . .
    Who are the winners and the losers?

    The new Aristocracy (the global corporations) is certainly a loser - they lose the ability to wean their way into one market then dominate any local competition. This is often followed by siphoning all profits offshore to a tax-free haven.

  2. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,116

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    Who are the winners and the losers?

    The new Aristocracy (the global corporations) is certainly a loser - they lose the ability to wean their way into one market then dominate any local competition. This is often followed by siphoning all profits offshore to a tax-free haven.
    How will Brexit affect offshore tax havens?

  3. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by essexpete View Post
    How will Brexit affect offshore tax havens?
    Do you not think that tax havens will carry as before?
    The whole hoohah generated by the remainders of disaster around the corner to my mind is just ridiculous. Trade will sort itself out, that is what business does. The devaluation of the pound created by those stupid EU negotiators already will take care of any WTO tarrifs which apparently average around 2.5%!!
    I really do wish Teresa would just pull out no deal!!
    Jack Caley

  4. #64
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ruthin ,Denbighshire,N Wales
    Posts
    1,063

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Do you not think that tax havens will carry as before?
    The whole hoohah generated by the remainders of disaster around the corner to my mind is just ridiculous. Trade will sort itself out, that is what business does. The devaluation of the pound created by those stupid EU negotiators already will take care of any WTO tarrifs which apparently average around 2.5%!!
    I really do wish Teresa would just pull out no deal!!
    Jack Caley

    https://ahdb.org.uk/brexit/documents...b_bitesize.pdf

    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Thank you for that, I have tried to do a little research of my own on WTO tariffs, very difficult.
    However, am I correct in assuming that the table you show is Most Favoured Nation Tariffs, a different thing I assume.
    I saw one WTOtable which assumed an 8% average , a totally different thing.
    The table you have shown does confirm the view of the leave brigade, in that food prices would go down in this country, away from the huge protectionist policies of the EU. Not good for British farming I admit.
    Do you really believe that the EU would impose those tariffs on us, in face of possibly the same tariffs on a much bigger export to us.
    I admit that the British government is unlikely to impose such huge tariffs, with its huge effect on cost of food in this country , but the net tariff income to the country would be huge!! Not much help to the consumer I agrees .
    Your table does illustrate though what a monster we have in the EU. Vastly beaurocratic, very protection and a monster.
    Can you just imagine Cranswick Foods just upthe road from here having a 40% tariff on 42% of their raw material for Sainsbury's sausages?
    What about whatever tariffs might be imposed on French cheese, wine, Mercedes cars etc?
    Trump might be an idiot, but he does know about false news, and grandstanding.
    All this hoohah is about the EU keeping its 12 billion a year contribution!
    Jack Caley

  6. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NB Canada
    Posts
    491

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Thank you for that, I have tried to do a little research of my own on WTO tariffs, very difficult.
    However, am I correct in assuming that the table you show is Most Favoured Nation Tariffs, a different thing I assume.
    I saw one WTOtable which assumed an 8% average , a totally different thing.
    The table you have shown does confirm the view of the leave brigade, in that food prices would go down in this country, away from the huge protectionist policies of the EU. Not good for British farming I admit.
    Do you really believe that the EU would impose those tariffs on us, in face of possibly the same tariffs on a much bigger export to us.
    I admit that the British government is unlikely to impose such huge tariffs, with its huge effect on cost of food in this country , but the net tariff income to the country would be huge!! Not much help to the consumer I agrees .
    Your table does illustrate though what a monster we have in the EU. Vastly beaurocratic, very protection and a monster.
    Can you just imagine Cranswick Foods just upthe road from here having a 40% tariff on 42% of their raw material for Sainsbury's sausages?
    What about whatever tariffs might be imposed on French cheese, wine, Mercedes cars etc?
    Trump might be an idiot, but he does know about false news, and grandstanding.
    All this hoohah is about the EU keeping its 12 billion a year contribution!
    Jack Caley
    Jack - I think the problem you are having on finding WTO tariffs is I don't believe they put tariffs on anyone's exports or imports - their primary role (as I have seen) is to act as an arbitrator / judge when there is a trade dispute between two countries - like the current softwood dispute between Canada and the US.

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    This morning on BBC Radio 4 there was a profile programme on a man called Stollmeyer, a chief of staff of the EU president. Nicknamed the monster, he is 47 years old, German, non elected of course!Apparently at the age of fifteen his father took him to the World War 1 battlefields and he has been a believer in European peace ever since.I agree with that motive, but I think that the present trading relationships cancel that out. In fact suppression of the various nations like Hungary and Catalonia is. Just the reverse.
    Apparently Stollmeyer was at the dinner in Downing Street and it was him who leaked reports of the dinner to the press in order to weaken Teresa May.
    These. Are the sort of people democracy is up against, totally opposed to a democratic vote, that the beaurocrats and the politicians know best.
    The programme was on Radio 4 about 7 o,clock this morning.Mark Coles.
    Jack Caley

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,322

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Thinking out loud ( but with a tin hat on ! ) : Are these "Eurocrats" actually shoting themselves in the foot ? i.e. Juncker says we've got to do this, Garnier says we've got to do that, collectively they say that 20 Billion is a joke so go away and think again, "bang bang you're dead or we're not playing".

    The British media are reporting all that and while my initial reason for being a Brexiteer was that I wanted the U.K. to be in control of itself again, I'm wondering if Joe Public is beginning to feel as I do insofar as I just want to say sod them all and just walk away ? Or is it time for another referendum for a stronger mandate or would that be too risky ? Discuss.

  9. #69
    Senior Member LALANS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Scotland, land of the free home of the brave
    Posts
    391

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Too risky Zaza, the Great British public is too fickle and too thick to understand and evaluate any argument whether pro or con.
    Anyone who has ever tried to buy stock from an Irishman will understand the nature of the negotiations. A deal will be made but there will be alot of feet stamping, throwing the arms up in disgust and general bullshitting around. But if you study EU agreements this has forever been the case, then suddenly at one minute to midnight, surprise, surprise a deal is struck and we're all pals again.

  10. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,456

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by LALANS View Post
    Too risky Zaza, the Great British public is too fickle and too thick to understand and evaluate any argument whether pro or con.
    If this is the case, how come we let them decide on this important issue in the first place? surely best just to ignore the referendum result, if the public's judgement is as poor as you say.

  11. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,456

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    ppression of the various nations like Hungary and Catalonia is. Just the reverse.
    Apparently Stollmeyer was at the dinner in Downing Street and it was him who leaked reports of the dinner to the press in order to weaken Teresa May.
    These. Are the sort of people democracy is up against, totally opposed to a democratic vote, that the beaurocrats and the politicians know best.
    That's how politics work Jack, like it or not, spin and leaks are all part of the game, it works for both sides and both sides did it, if anything the leave campaign was significantly more dishonest, 350 million a week for the NHS anyone?

  12. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,456

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by essexpete View Post
    How will Brexit affect offshore tax havens?
    Well if we go for jack's 'just leave' option, the UK will end up as one big onshore tax haven, so we won't need the offshore ones anymore.

  13. #73
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NB Canada
    Posts
    491

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Well if we go for jack's 'just leave' option, the UK will end up as one big onshore tax haven, so we won't need the offshore ones anymore.
    Well, that would create employment for big income tax lawyers and for big income investment bankers - spinoff would mean jobs for low-income waiters and cooks and . . .

  14. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    838

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    I wouldn't worry too much about tax. If we leave without a deal, I don't anticipate paying any for a long, long time.

    And I doubt I'll be alone, not by a long shot.

    Bang! There goes another chunk of our 'Brexit windfall'

  15. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,322

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Interesting graph here - blue is what we pay, pink is what we get back out of it, black line is our net contribution. source as per the bottom of the graph. Says it all really. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Common Market was a damn good idea. But when we joined we had no idea about the blood sucking monolith that would evolve. We stood on our own two feet for 2 centuries and we can do it again.

    EU.JPG

  16. #76
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,456

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Interesting graph here - blue is what we pay, pink is what we get back out of it, black line is our net contribution. source as per the bottom of the graph. Says it all really. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Common Market was a damn good idea. But when we joined we had no idea about the blood sucking monolith that would evolve. We stood on our own two feet for 2 centuries and we can do it again.

    EU.JPG
    But it doesn't say it all, because our contributions to the EU are not a zero sum game, there are other indirect economic benefits to membership that aren't quantified in a simple what we pay versus what we draw back comparison.

  17. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,322

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    there are other indirect economic benefits to membership that aren't quantified in a simple what we pay versus what we draw back comparison.
    And are those "other indirect economic benefits" worth nearly 236million/day ?

  18. #78
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northumbrialand
    Posts
    1,250

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    But it doesn't say it all, because our contributions to the EU are not a zero sum game, there are other indirect economic benefits to membership that aren't quantified in a simple what we pay versus what we draw back comparison.
    Nor does it allow for inflation.
    As I understand it our contribution is a percentage of the VAT take, stand to be corrected there. Since our Vat rate has doubled over time, this has resulted in an increased payment to Europe.
    Interesting comment I heard.....Farm Assurance inspector doing a visit....Farmer commented that they were getting just a little too intrusive, his reply was that he expected if Brexit came about FA would become a legal requirement not a voluntary action.
    Difficult to justify if our shores are opened up to any country in the world that our globe trotting trade minister can find to do a deal with.
    Thinking it over....It may well become a legal requirement, the part he failed to realise was that it will not be a legal requirement to continue farming!

    Old news I know but.....
    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...n-7697854.html

  19. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    838

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    We stood on our own two feet for 2 centuries and we can do it again.


    We lived off the backs of other countries, and called it an empire

  20. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    The big problem ith all this debate is that from the start we allowed the EU to make all the running.
    Had we gone in hard from the start I think the picture would be different.
    All along, even when Cameron went EU made the running. All they had to do was grant Cameron some ground on immigration control and benefits. No, they brought all this on themselves. In fact if they had offered some payments to us, so we could house those 3 million immigrants, pay them benefits and give themNHS treatment, I think they would never have had a referendum.
    As it is, they have demonstrated it is just about money, not European peace or anything like that.
    We should have gone in hard and let. Them beg for our market.
    Jack Caley

  21. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NB Canada
    Posts
    491

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    If this is the case, how come we let them decide on this important issue in the first place? surely best just to ignore the referendum result, if the public's judgement is as poor as you say.
    I just re-read this comment and I wonder - if "the public's" judgement is so bad, why are there elections at all? Just let the politicians choose who will be the overlords for the serfs.

  22. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,322

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post


    We lived off the backs of other countries, and called it an empire
    What ? for two centuries ? Have you forgotten all of our history ? Our inventions, our innovations, our tenacity in times of adversity ? Or do you just choose to pick out something that is, in parts, questionable just because it suits your agenda ?

  23. #83
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    There was a mention this morning(or last night), surprise, surprise, on BBC about the Stollmeyer git, not spelt correctly, but better spelt as the monster!! Apparently it was him again who said that Teresa was forlorn and dejected. His boss denied it.
    It just goes to show though what lengths those EU leeches will go to to keep all that loot.

    Jack Caley

  24. #84
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    South east Ireland
    Posts
    92

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    The Tories in a "cold" (for the moment) civil war, Nationalism and sectarianism on the rise in NI and Scotland and the next government looking like 60's Marxist throwback. Will a Corbyn led UK with NI in turmoil, Scottish independence back in vogue, Tories split and the City a faction of the size it is, be a good outcome?

  25. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by gone View Post
    The Tories in a "cold" (for the moment) civil war, Nationalism and sectarianism on the rise in NI and Scotland and the next government looking like 60's Marxist throwback. Will a Corbyn led UK with NI in turmoil, Scottish independence back in vogue, Tories split and the City a faction of the size it is, be a good outcome?
    Actually I think it is a good thing that the Torres are n a Cold War.
    It means that the views of the leavers must be being heard.
    Jack Caley

  26. #86
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,322

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Actually I think it is a good thing that the Torres are n a Cold War.
    It means that the views of the leavers must be being heard.
    Jack Caley
    Crikey Jack, that's optimism if ever I heard it. I hope you're right but it just seems an almighty mess to me.

  27. #87
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    South east Ireland
    Posts
    92

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Actually I think it is a good thing that the Torres are n a Cold War.
    It means that the views of the leavers must be being heard.
    Jack Caley

    From the outside, I can't see how a divided Tory party with a minority in parliament can get this trough, or win the next election.
    The UK being run by a 1960's style Marxist Labour party seems to be getting closer and closer.
    He seems to be gaining more and more support while the Tories are totally focused on who will replace Mrs May.
    I can't remember the last proper attack, by a Tory, on Corbyn, but the "coldwar" in the Tories rages on.
    This has to be a fear for the rural and farming communities

  28. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Holderness
    Posts
    645

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    The result of the Catalonian vote is interesting to me.
    There was a referendum by Catalonian voters, maybe only a percentage, but nevertheless a majority vote for out.
    The reaction of other countries, the EU and most importantly our government is to oppose the result and support the Spanish government. Our parliament has a very substantial quantity of MP,s who feel that the referendum result is wrong and that a democratic vote should be ignored, Parliament knows best!!!
    It really does illustrate the problem of power. Do politicians have the mentality of power, or are they there to serve the people, their voters?
    I suppose in Spain it may yet again come down to money, apparently Catalonia is 30% of Spains GDP. Possibly like EU therein lies the answer.
    Jack Caley

  29. #89
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ruthin ,Denbighshire,N Wales
    Posts
    1,063

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The result of the Catalonian vote is interesting to me.
    There was a referendum by Catalonian voters, maybe only a percentage, but nevertheless a majority vote for out.
    The reaction of other countries, the EU and most importantly our government is to oppose the result and support the Spanish government. Our parliament has a very substantial quantity of MP,s who feel that the referendum result is wrong and that a democratic vote should be ignored, Parliament knows best!!!
    It really does illustrate the problem of power. Do politicians have the mentality of power, or are they there to serve the people, their voters?
    I suppose in Spain it may yet again come down to money, apparently Catalonia is 30% of Spains GDP. Possibly like EU therein lies the answer.
    Jack Caley

    As the Lady says flag waving and entering into something without any plan by a bunch of Nationalist Ideologues hoping for the best is not very pragmatic.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

  30. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    838

    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    What ? for two centuries ? Have you forgotten all of our history ? Our inventions, our innovations, our tenacity in times of adversity ? Or do you just choose to pick out something that is, in parts, questionable just because it suits your agenda ?
    And what 'agenda' would that be? Accusations of having an 'agenda' is the go-to response of someone who can't handle having their views challenged.
    You were talking about money and the economy and citing past economic success, going back 200 years, as evidence of future economic success. I was pointing out that your point was pointless. That was a different time and vastly different circumstances. Circumstances that will never be repeated and can have no bearing on our fortunes going forward. A bumper harvest from 10 years ago won't feed today's cattle.
    Whether you like it or not, our biggest trading partner is the EU and the economy is geared towards that. Other trade deals will come in time, I'm not disputing that, but that's about as much use in the here and now as being promised a load of hay next week when your cows are looking at empty feeders this morning.

    And, since you mention invention and innovation, do you have any evidence this has been stifled by being in the EU?

    Incidentally, I see celebrated inventor, innovator and ardent Brexiteer James Dyson is planning to build his new electric cars in China. Hardly a vote of confidence.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •