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Thread: Brexit, yes or no?

  1. #91
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The result of the Catalonian vote is interesting to me.
    There was a referendum by Catalonian voters, maybe only a percentage, but nevertheless a majority vote for out.
    The reaction of other countries, the EU and most importantly our government is to oppose the result and support the Spanish government. Our parliament has a very substantial quantity of MP,s who feel that the referendum result is wrong and that a democratic vote should be ignored, Parliament knows best!!!
    It really does illustrate the problem of power. Do politicians have the mentality of power, or are they there to serve the people, their voters?
    I suppose in Spain it may yet again come down to money, apparently Catalonia is 30% of Spains GDP. Possibly like EU therein lies the answer.
    Jack Caley
    I assume your trying to draw some sort of parallel with the brexit vote
    The Catalan referendum was ruled illegal and in breach of the Spanish constitution by the Spanish courts (before it was held). The turnout was only 43% because the vast majority of those who opposed independence refused to take part in an illegal vote.
    International observers invited by the Catalans themselves have stated that the referendum results could not be considered valid as the process failed to meet the minimum international standards for elections.
    Any attempt by our Government to recognise the result could be regarded as supporting an act of sedition in a country regarded as a close ally.
    I don't know enough about Spanish politics to know how strong the Catalan case for independence is but I know one of the foundations of democracy is the rule of law. If they can't go about it lawfully then it could end in chaos and even bloodshed.

  2. #92
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    And what 'agenda' would that be? Accusations of having an 'agenda' is the go-to response of someone who can't handle having their views challenged. No problem whatsoever with having my views "challenged" it's called discussion and debate.
    You were talking about money and the economy and citing past economic success, going back 200 years, as evidence of future economic success. I was pointing out that your point was pointless. That was a different time and vastly different circumstances. Circumstances that will never be repeated and can have no bearing on our fortunes going forward. A bumper harvest from 10 years ago won't feed today's cattle. No, much importantl than that, we can learn learn from success and disaster. Embrace the former, resist the latter.
    Whether you like it or not, our biggest trading partner is the EU and the economy is geared towards that. Other trade deals will come in time, I'm not disputing that, but that's about as much use in the here and now as being promised a load of hay next week when your cows are looking at empty feeders this morning. You think that the present U.K. economy is akin to "looking at empty feeders this morning" ?

    And, since you mention invention and innovation, do you have any evidence this has been stifled by being in the EU?

    Incidentally, I see celebrated inventor, innovator and ardent Brexiteer James Dyson is planning to build his new electric cars in China. Hardly a vote of confidence.
    ..
    Last edited by zaza; 29-10-17 at 10:01 AM.

  3. #93
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    You think that the present U.K. economy is akin to "looking at empty feeders this morning" ?
    No.

    I think if we come out without a deal, it will be.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    No.

    I think if we come out without a deal, it will be.
    I'm not sure about that. With the "Dunkirk" spirit of yore I am convinced it wouldn't be a problem but I have grave doubts about the stamina and fortitude of the general populace nowadays.

    I'd like to cite an example : Only 35 years ago Argentina invaded a relatively small group of islands in the South Atlantic which, for historical reasons, are part of/under the protection of, the U.K. I won't go into why that is so or even the legitimacy of it. But the then Prime Minister immediately sought, and gained, Government permission to send an attacking force to gain control of the islands.

    It could have been construed as a crazy idea. There were less than 2,000 people living on the main island, the U.K. had to send a task force 8,000 miles to achieve it's goal of re-taking the islands. Almost certainly people, on both sides, would die. But we had a Prime Minister who knew that what the Argentines had done was wrong and she wanted to rectify the situation. But, most importantly, the U.K. supported her and her Government. Sure, there were some lily-livered Liberals, pacifists, and "conchies" as there always are but the task force went anyway. And the rest is history and we need that spirit to re-surface but I am very worried that, for a myriad reasons, it won't.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    I'm not sure about that. With the "Dunkirk" spirit of yore I am convinced it wouldn't be a problem but I have grave doubts about the stamina and fortitude of the general populace nowadays.

    I'd like to cite an example : Only 35 years ago Argentina invaded a relatively small group of islands in the South Atlantic which, for historical reasons, are part of/under the protection of, the U.K. I won't go into why that is so or even the legitimacy of it. But the then Prime Minister immediately sought, and gained, Government permission to send an attacking force to gain control of the islands.

    It could have been construed as a crazy idea. There were less than 2,000 people living on the main island, the U.K. had to send a task force 8,000 miles to achieve it's goal of re-taking the islands. Almost certainly people, on both sides, would die. But we had a Prime Minister who knew that what the Argentines had done was wrong and she wanted to rectify the situation. But, most importantly, the U.K. supported her and her Government. Sure, there were some lily-livered Liberals, pacifists, and "conchies" as there always are but the task force went anyway. And the rest is history and we need that spirit to re-surface but I am very worried that, for a myriad reasons, it won't.
    Oh for goodness sake, where do you even start with this.
    First of all The Falklands War was nothing to do with the economy of the country, it was about sovereignty (and just for the record, it was the right thing to do).
    Secondly, if you want to invoke the memory of past military battles don't forget The Charge of the Light Brigade...

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    Oh for goodness sake, where do you even start with this.
    First of all The Falklands War was nothing to do with the economy of the country, it was about sovereignty (and just for the record, it was the right thing to do).
    Secondly, if you want to invoke the memory of past military battles don't forget The Charge of the Light Brigade...
    Yes but the Charge of the Light Brigade was more to do with somewhat errr how should I put it??? Gentlemen of an aristocratic background with the best of intentions, does that sum it up? Not actual government.

    Own personal thinking, at the very least the current governing party should be lined up and individually asked “ are you interested in furtherering the needs of the nation or your own career?”
    Far too much of this entire debacle is down to selfish single minded failures trying to create their personal reason d ’etre, Whilst these lumbering egos battle it out the Nation and indeed the continent can go fiddle.
    Was it Nero who fiddled as Rome burnt??? Seems very reminiscent!
    In reality the door is open for strong European leadership, displace the Euro dictatorship and form a true trading alliance between like minded states, I suppose going back to the Treaty of Rome initial aspirations.
    Spain, Italy, Austria...Hungary the Uk all have deep misgivings about Euro domination, The EU need not be the only ball an the Park!

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    I started this thread!!
    Actually a whole lot of all this discussion need never have happened.
    It is all about power!!!!
    If the EU does not agree with a democratic vote , we have another vote until the EU gets its way, as per Ireland.
    The Spanish law is a result of extreme actions after Franco.

    Why Issy we are all arguing about nothing, is because of the intransigent attitude in the first place of EU not trying to help Cameron when he had a problem, (all about money of course), further confirmed now with the ultimatum, no money no negotiate!!!

    M130 you do not do British business much credit. Even the CBI has no faith in itself. Britains history as an innovator and trader is still there, there still some great people around, especially in the industrial north. All they is help and support, the same sort of support my Italian friends got before they joined the euro.

    The whole concept of this Brexit affair is misplaced.
    We should just not bother to try and negotiate a trade deal, just pull out and let them come begging to us.

    Lord Sugar, who I do not have all that respect for tried to say on the Brexit Bashing Corporation the other day that we should not have politicians negotiating. The Today programme soon shut him off!
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    Oh for goodness sake, where do you even start with this.
    First of all The Falklands War was nothing to do with the economy of the country, it was about sovereignty (and just for the record, it was the right thing to do).
    Secondly, if you want to invoke the memory of past military battles don't forget The Charge of the Light Brigade...
    Ah, you missed the point - quite severely. I was showing an example of the "can do" attitude that this once proud nation possessed. Despite any adversity we didn't used to just lie down and give in without a fight, we fought for what we (the majority - remember ? ) believed in. I'm glad that you think that the Falklands war was the right thing to do. Can you not just understand that the majority in this country think that divorcing ourselves from the inept gravy train (for some) that the Common Market has morphed into is also the right thing to do ?
    Last edited by zaza; 29-10-17 at 06:26 PM.

  9. #99
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    If the EU does not agree with a democratic vote , we have another vote until the EU gets its way, as per Ireland.
    After the first vote, there were changes offered which required a second vote, essentially on something somewhat different. Anyone wanting to vote no were free to do so.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Can you not just understand that the majority in this country think that divorcing ourselves from the inept gravy train (for some) that the Common Market has morphed into is also the right thing to do ?
    I'm missing the point? You're still arguing that we should leave the EU when that has already been decided. We are leaving.

    The debate has moved on to how we leave. Perhaps you should do the same.

    However, at least with all this 'stiff upper lip, fight the good fight' rhetoric it's clear you recogise there is adversity to come. Let's both hope the damage isn't lasting.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    I'm missing the point? You're still arguing that we should leave the EU when that has already been decided. We are leaving.

    The debate has moved on to how we leave. Perhaps you should do the same.

    However, at least with all this 'stiff upper lip, fight the good fight' rhetoric it's clear you recogise there is adversity to come. Let's both hope the damage isn't lasting.
    It now seems that you are accepting that we are going to leave whereas I had gained the impression that you thought that we shouldn't be and that you were arguing against it. I thought that you were one of the legion of remain supporters suffering from sour grapes and who would move Heaven and Earth to circumvent that decision.

    The issue of "how we leave" is extremely complex. It's certainly not helped by warring factions even amongst those in the U.K. camp who are connected with the negotiations. It's certainly not helped by those within the EU who think we should stay and honour whatever commitments they can conjure up. And incidentally I do think we have commitments of one sort or another, probably financial. The U.K. is a net contributor in a marriage that relies on that fact and to which we are signed up to.

    With regard to the "adversity" then I am very concerned about the level that will ensue, particularly for agriculture. I think it will be very difficult for some, especially the family farm and those who farm in marginal areas.
    Last edited by 4wd; 30-10-17 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Fix quote tags

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    [QUOTE=zaza;285713]
    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    I'm missing the point? You're still arguing that we should leave the EU when that has already been decided. We are leaving.

    The debate has moved on to how we leave. Perhaps you should do the same.

    However, at least with all this 'stiff upper lip, fight the good fight' rhetoric it's clear you recogise there is adversity to come. Let's both hope the damage isn't lasting.[/QUOTEIt now seems that you are accepting that we are going to leave whereas I had gained the impression that you thought that we shouldn't be and that you were arguing against it. I thought that you were one of the legion of remain supporters suffering from sour grapes and who would move Heaven and Earth to circumvent that decision.

    The issue of "how we leave" is extremely complex. It's certainly not helped by warring factions even amongst those in the U.K. camp who are connected with the negotiations. It's certainly not helped by those within the EU who think we should stay and honour whatever commitments they can conjure up. And incidentally I do think we have commitments of one sort or another, probably financial. The U.K. is a net contributor in a marriage that relies on that fact and to which we are signed up to.

    With regard to the "adversity" then I am very concerned about the level that will ensue, particularly for agriculture. I think it will be very difficult for some, especially the family farm and those who farm in marginalstry areas.
    Exactly, HOW WE LEAVE!!
    The trouble is that there are people, Clegg for his pension, Heseltine for his mistaken ideals, whose aim is to reverse the decision even if in spirit rather than reality.
    In all their antics they are playing right in to the hands of the the hardball EU negotiators, whose only aim is money, and has been ever since we went in the common market.
    They took away half our pig industry. They took away our fishing, a dutch boat REGISTERED IN HULL, regularly lands all its catch, caught in our waters, in Holland!
    What would you think if a lorry came and loaded your lambs up and sold them in France!!
    Or a combine came, cleared your wheat crop and sold it in Holland?
    Have you seen what will be the net contribution this year to the European funds?
    That net contribution is purely to maintain the European monstrosity.
    at least the money for the European bank was for investment in a better Europe. But, apparently we wont get that money back for 35 years.
    The country will better off out by a big margin and may be able to finance a better NHS for all those who have come crowding in for the last 20 years.
    Farming is obviously going to be worse off, especially with Gove in charge, but that I think we all knew!
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    The new Minister of Defence is a man born in Scarborough! Great he is a Yorkshireman, BUT, he voted REMAIN.
    Does make you wonder a bit about Teresa Mays dedication to Brexit.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The new Minister of Defence is a man born in Scarborough! Great he is a Yorkshireman, BUT, he voted REMAIN.
    Does make you wonder a bit about Teresa Mays dedication to Brexit.

    you think she should have appointed a less qualified leave voter then?

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    you think she should have appointed a less qualified leave voter then?
    The only qualification he had was that he is a Yorkshireman!!!
    Teresa May voted Remain. To be fair to her she did say brexit means brexit, but one does wonder at her total dedication when she appoints another remainer.
    The whole situation gets worse and worse, with all these gropers about!
    Maybe ought to appoint a female groper to negotiate!!
    Jack Caley
    Last edited by Jack_Caley; 04-11-17 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Correction

  16. #106
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Lateral Thinking....
    Introducing our new Brexit Negotiater!

    https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...act=mrc&uact=8

    That should do the job!

  17. #107
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Certainly will get the attention of Juncker and Barnier......probably any wives and girlfriends as well......or am I perhaps on the wrong track??

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The only qualification he had was that he is a Yorkshireman!!!
    Teresa May voted Remain. To be fair to her she did say brexit means brexit, but one does wonder at her total dedication when she appoints another remainer.
    The whole situation gets worse and worse, with all these gropers about!
    Maybe ought to appoint a female groper to negotiate!!
    Jack Caley
    Why should the way an MP voted in a free public vote over a year ago have any bearing whatsoever in whether they are appointed to the cabinet? what a bizarre suggestion. surely ability should be the main selection criteria?

    Although at the moment "not likely to be outed as a sex pest" is probably the most important criteria, good luck with that one given the pool of candidates, is all i can say.

  19. #109
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Why should the way an MP voted in a free public vote over a year ago have any bearing whatsoever in whether they are appointed to the cabinet? what a bizarre suggestion. surely ability should be the main selection criteria?

    Although at the moment "not likely to be outed as a sex pest" is probably the most important criteria, good luck with that one given the pool of candidates, is all i can say.
    Supposedly, one of the main problems in the cabinet is the war between the leavers and the remainders. If Teresa. May really is erring on the side of a non-brexit, she needs to make sure she has more like minded votes in the cabinet.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Supposedly, one of the main problems in the cabinet is the war between the leavers and the remainders. If Teresa. May really is erring on the side of a non-brexit, she needs to make sure she has more like minded votes in the cabinet.
    Jack Caley
    Parliament, not the cabinet, get to vote on the eventual brexit deal, or no deal, as the case may be.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    It now seems that you are accepting that we are going to leave whereas I had gained the impression that you thought that we shouldn't be and that you were arguing against it. I thought that you were one of the legion of remain supporters suffering from sour grapes and who would move Heaven and Earth to circumvent that decision.

    The issue of "how we leave" is extremely complex. It's certainly not helped by warring factions even amongst those in the U.K. camp who are connected with the negotiations. It's certainly not helped by those within the EU who think we should stay and honour whatever commitments they can conjure up. And incidentally I do think we have commitments of one sort or another, probably financial. The U.K. is a net contributor in a marriage that relies on that fact and to which we are signed up to.

    With regard to the "adversity" then I am very concerned about the level that will ensue, particularly for agriculture. I think it will be very difficult for some, especially the family farm and those who farm in marginal areas.
    Oh I still think it's a big mistake. However, the decision's been made so we have to move on.

    The biggest obstacle we have to a good outcome is the arrogant stupidity of the hard Brexiteers (someone keep an eye on Jack, he's going to need a paper bag to breath into) and the half-truths they're peddling to back up their nonsense.
    First of all they should never have started the willy-waving contest about who needs who the most. It only draws attention to the fact that we are in the weaker position. Yes, we have a huge trading deficit with the EU but that's only half the story. To put it in proper context you have to factor in the size of the two economies. UK exports to the EU represent 13% of our economy while EU exports to the UK represent under 4% of their economy. You also have to realise the UK is now a service based economy and we actually have a trading surplus with the EU, in services, of close to £100billion. Much of which could be lost permanently if there's no deal because services can be relocated to the EU much easier than any manufacturing business. In many cases, such as banks, it's just a case of moving jobs to an office within the EU.
    There are also thousands of small and medium size businesses that rely on the single market. These are today's entrepreneurs and innovators, the very people you are hoping will get us through this, and they will get the rug pulled from under them. Most of these businesses rely on cash flow and don't have the resilience that a huge asset base brings, such as in farming. Even a small hiccup in trading could cause lasting damage.
    Not to worry, though. The rest of the world is apparently queuing up to trade with us. In the real world however, the rest of the world is queuing up to sell us stuff. Translating that into actual trade deals could take between 5 and 10 years, unless we just bend over for them...
    Remember when they were touting a trade deal with India as our saviour? Ever wonder why they've gone quiet on that? It's because India want some free movement of people included in the deal. Good luck with that one.
    Then there's Trump, and his promise of a 'quick and easy' trade deal. It's abundantly clear he won't sign anything that doesn't shaft the other side. Or if he does, it won't be worth the paper it's printed on. As Canada, Mexico and South Korea are finding out.
    The truth is, there's nothing out there that can replace lost EU trade in a timely enough manner to prevent damage to the economy, other than a new EU deal.
    Ah but (I can hear Jack typing) "if we play hardball and walk away they'll come running after us". Do you really think they'll humiliate themselves to that extent? You talk about our pride, do you think they have none? We might be negotiating with Brussels bureaucrats but the outcome still has to be approved by all 27 leaders. Do you really think they'll be able to sell a complete humiliation like that to their own electorates?
    Even if they did come after us (and it's a huge if), it's not going to happen right away. It could easily take a year or more of throwing insults back and forward across the channel before one side climbs down. and alot of damage could be done in that time.

    I really can't work out if the hard brexiteers actually believe their own nonsense, or if they're just too pig-headed to tone it down for the good of the country.

    Jack? Jack? Are you ok?

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    Oh I still think it's a big mistake. However, the decision's been made so we have to move on.

    The biggest obstacle we have to a good outcome is the arrogant stupidity of the hard Brexiteers (someone keep an eye on Jack, he's going to need a paper bag to breath into) and the half-truths they're peddling to back up their nonsense.
    First of all they should never have started the willy-waving contest about who needs who the most. It only draws attention to the fact that we are in the weaker position. Yes, we have a huge trading deficit with the EU but that's only half the story. To put it in proper context you have to factor in the size of the two economies. UK exports to the EU represent 13% of our economy while EU exports to the UK represent under 4% of their economy. You also have to realise the UK is now a service based economy and we actually have a trading surplus with the EU, in services, of close to £100billion. Much of which could be lost permanently if there's no deal because services can be relocated to the EU much easier than any manufacturing business. In many cases, such as banks, it's just a case of moving jobs to an office within the EU.
    There are also thousands of small and medium size businesses that rely on the single market. These are today's entrepreneurs and innovators, the very people you are hoping will get us through this, and they will get the rug pulled from under them. Most of these businesses rely on cash flow and don't have the resilience that a huge asset base brings, such as in farming. Even a small hiccup in trading could cause lasting damage.
    Not to worry, though. The rest of the world is apparently queuing up to trade with us. In the real world however, the rest of the world is queuing up to sell us stuff. Translating that into actual trade deals could take between 5 and 10 years, unless we just bend over for them...
    Remember when they were touting a trade deal with India as our saviour? Ever wonder why they've gone quiet on that? It's because India want some free movement of people included in the deal. Good luck with that one.
    Then there's Trump, and his promise of a 'quick and easy' trade deal. It's abundantly clear he won't sign anything that doesn't shaft the other side. Or if he does, it won't be worth the paper it's printed on. As Canada, Mexico and South Korea are finding out.
    The truth is, there's nothing out there that can replace lost EU trade in a timely enough manner to prevent damage to the economy, other than a new EU deal.
    Ah but (I can hear Jack typing) "if we play hardball and walk away they'll come running after us". Do you really think they'll humiliate themselves to that extent? You talk about our pride, do you think they have none? We might be negotiating with Brussels bureaucrats but the outcome still has to be approved by all 27 leaders. Do you really think they'll be able to sell a complete humiliation like that to their own electorates?
    Even if they did come after us (and it's a huge if), it's not going to happen right away. It could easily take a year or more of throwing insults back and forward across the channel before one side climbs down. and alot of damage could be done in that time.

    I really can't work out if the hard brexiteers actually believe their own nonsense, or if they're just too pig-headed to tone it down for the good of the country.

    Jack? Jack? Are you ok?
    We have a Hustler zero turn lawn mower, made in the US, does a good job on our caravan site, as it is quick manouverable and has a CAT/Perkins Diesel engine, so reasonably economic. It is quite old now so is requiring extra repairs and maintenance. At the moment it needs two hydraulic pumps as they are worn out.
    In the US these pumps are between $300 and $600 each. They are for sale on E-bay, with package and delivery a total of $1200.
    Wait for it: it will cost a further $300 to get them here, export charges. I am not sure what these export charges are but I am assuming most of this will EU tariff, the US is hardly likely to charge tariffs on its own exports.
    Now if Donald could negotiate a nice little deal with the UK independently instead of those protective EU lot, he would be laughing, especially if there were open borders.
    The whole thing is a mess, it needs sorting.
    The only thing is that the European have no desire to jeopardise their lucrative £12 billion a year.

    Jack Caley

  23. #113
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Many of our exports to the rest of the world go through Rotterdam, one of the world's most important 'interchange' ports.

    Is it true that those exports are counted as, and so inflate our exports to the EU?

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    Oh I still think it's a big mistake. However, the decision's been made so we have to move on.

    The biggest obstacle we have to a good outcome is the arrogant stupidity of the hard Brexiteers (someone keep an eye on Jack, he's going to need a paper bag to breath into) and the half-truths they're peddling to back up their nonsense.
    First of all they should never have started the willy-waving contest about who needs who the most. It only draws attention to the fact that we are in the weaker position. Yes, we have a huge trading deficit with the EU but that's only half the story. To put it in proper context you have to factor in the size of the two economies. UK exports to the EU represent 13% of our economy while EU exports to the UK represent under 4% of their economy. You also have to realise the UK is now a service based economy and we actually have a trading surplus with the EU, in services, of close to £100billion. Much of which could be lost permanently if there's no deal because services can be relocated to the EU much easier than any manufacturing business. In many cases, such as banks, it's just a case of moving jobs to an office within the EU.
    There are also thousands of small and medium size businesses that rely on the single market. These are today's entrepreneurs and innovators, the very people you are hoping will get us through this, and they will get the rug pulled from under them. Most of these businesses rely on cash flow and don't have the resilience that a huge asset base brings, such as in farming. Even a small hiccup in trading could cause lasting damage.
    Not to worry, though. The rest of the world is apparently queuing up to trade with us. In the real world however, the rest of the world is queuing up to sell us stuff. Translating that into actual trade deals could take between 5 and 10 years, unless we just bend over for them...
    Remember when they were touting a trade deal with India as our saviour? Ever wonder why they've gone quiet on that? It's because India want some free movement of people included in the deal. Good luck with that one.
    Then there's Trump, and his promise of a 'quick and easy' trade deal. It's abundantly clear he won't sign anything that doesn't shaft the other side. Or if he does, it won't be worth the paper it's printed on. As Canada, Mexico and South Korea are finding out.
    The truth is, there's nothing out there that can replace lost EU trade in a timely enough manner to prevent damage to the economy, other than a new EU deal.
    Ah but (I can hear Jack typing) "if we play hardball and walk away they'll come running after us". Do you really think they'll humiliate themselves to that extent? You talk about our pride, do you think they have none? We might be negotiating with Brussels bureaucrats but the outcome still has to be approved by all 27 leaders. Do you really think they'll be able to sell a complete humiliation like that to their own electorates?
    Even if they did come after us (and it's a huge if), it's not going to happen right away. It could easily take a year or more of throwing insults back and forward across the channel before one side climbs down. and alot of damage could be done in that time.

    I really can't work out if the hard brexiteers actually believe their own nonsense, or if they're just too pig-headed to tone it down for the good of the country.

    Jack? Jack? Are you ok?
    I find it amusing that the hard brexiteers are arrogant and stupid.
    They had a good example to follow from enelected EU fat cats!
    My market days are over now but in my time one only went anywhere near a realistic dealer. Both sides of a deal have to live. Teresa May is right at the end we have to live together with Europe , just as much as they have to live with us.
    What was a problem for Cameron, in immigration and benefits, posed by his electorate, who eventually proved the point in the referendum.
    First of all the arrogant 27 threw him out, even though some of them were already having the same problems.
    Then the even more arrogant non elected lot came in even stronger. Understandingly enough, they are afraid of losing their filthy lucre, but their action has made so that our brexiteers have to be just as extreme.
    The whole thing could have been resolved so simply by controlled borders without all this ridiculous charade.
    Yesterday, I stopped to allow an Irish 40 tonner to pull out of a parking place he he had been resting in before boarding the ferry at Hull, no problem no sweat, just as it was before we joined the EURO and it was called the common market.
    In those days it was no problem to put your documents over the side in the ships box while you were waiting for lock gates.
    All this nonsense about delay at Dover is nonsense! There are rigid checks on all lorries now! Just ask my son on his trips back from Italy that I used to do.
    The only problem is that the EUROCRATS are arrogantly using the single market as a weapon to keep on drawing our £12 billion a year.

    I am pleased you believe we should move on but I hope it is not the usual placatory remark that all politicians use before they set about refusing the democratic vote.

    Jack Caley

  25. #115
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    They had a good example to follow from enelected EU fat cats!
    My market days are over now but in my time one only went anywhere near a realistic dealer. Both sides of a deal have to live. Teresa May is right at the end we have to live together with Europe , just as much as they have to live with us.
    What was a problem for Cameron, in immigration and benefits, posed by his electorate, who eventually proved the point in the referendum.
    First of all the arrogant 27 threw him out, even though some of them were already having the same problems.
    Then the even more arrogant non elected lot came in even stronger. Understandingly enough, they are afraid of losing their filthy lucre, but their action has made so that our brexiteers have to be just as extreme.
    The whole thing could have been resolved so simply by controlled borders without all this ridiculous charade.
    So you want tighter borders and more regulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Yesterday, I stopped to allow an Irish 40 tonner to pull out of a parking place he he had been resting in before boarding the ferry at Hull, no problem no sweat, just as it was before we joined the EURO and it was called the common market.
    In those days it was no problem to put your documents over the side in the ships box while you were waiting for lock gates.
    All this nonsense about delay at Dover is nonsense! There are rigid checks on all lorries now! Just ask my son on his trips back from Italy that I used to do.
    Hang on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I find it amusing that the hard brexiteers are arrogant and stupid.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

  26. #116
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    We have a Hustler zero turn lawn mower, made in the US, does a good job on our caravan site, as it is quick manouverable and has a CAT/Perkins Diesel engine, so reasonably economic. It is quite old now so is requiring extra repairs and maintenance. At the moment it needs two hydraulic pumps as they are worn out.
    In the US these pumps are between $300 and $600 each. They are for sale on E-bay, with package and delivery a total of $1200.
    Wait for it: it will cost a further $300 to get them here, export charges. I am not sure what these export charges are but I am assuming most of this will EU tariff, the US is hardly likely to charge tariffs on its own exports.
    Now if Donald could negotiate a nice little deal with the UK independently instead of those protective EU lot, he would be laughing, especially if there were open borders.
    The whole thing is a mess, it needs sorting.
    The only thing is that the European have no desire to jeopardise their lucrative £12 billion a year.

    Jack Caley
    Good work being done by the WTO again.
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

  27. #117
    Senior Member skoda's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    Many of our exports to the rest of the world go through Rotterdam, one of the world's most important 'interchange' ports.

    Is it true that those exports are counted as, and so inflate our exports to the EU?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36229579 A fair point made is that exports are both Services and goods . The real truth is there is no 100% accurate figure .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    Good work being done by the WTO again.
    if you mean World Trade Organization (WTO) they do not import or export duties or tarrifs on trade between countries - the "duties" Jack mentions would be a combination of EU / British import duties AND "paper work" charges by the shipper.

    I have run into this "paper work" charge many times when importing things into Canada from the US.

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    Good work being done by the WTO again.
    I have googled WTO tariffs to try to find out the exact tariffs. Found it difficult.
    I cannot see how the figure I am quoted is worked out. With vat at 20% it does not come to enough, so presumably it must be some sort of tariff. Somewhere, some time ago I thought the tariff on such was about 4%, so that does not work out. Presumably I will have to pay the Americans the tariff I quoted, then maybe the EU will charge me VAT on top of that!! Not much wonder the price in America is double by the time it gets here.
    Jack Caley
    PS Does anyone know how the tariff is arrived at?

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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I have googled WTO tariffs to try to find out the exact tariffs. Found it difficult.
    I cannot see how the figure I am quoted is worked out. With vat at 20% it does not come to enough, so presumably it must be some sort of tariff. Somewhere, some time ago I thought the tariff on such was about 4%, so that does not work out. Presumably I will have to pay the Americans the tariff I quoted, then maybe the EU will charge me VAT on top of that!! Not much wonder the price in America is double by the time it gets here.
    Jack Caley
    PS Does anyone know how the tariff is arrived at?
    Jack, the reason you are having trouble finding WTO tariffs is the WTO doesn't charge tariffs.

    Selected text from the WTO website: https://www.wto.org/

    "The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only global international organization dealing with the rules of trade between nations. At its heart are the WTO agreements, negotiated and signed by the bulk of the world’s trading nations and ratified in their parliaments. The goal is to ensure that trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible."

    "The WTO has many roles: it operates a global system of trade rules, it acts as a forum for negotiating trade agreements, its settles trade disputes between its members and it supports the needs of developing countries."

    "The primary purpose of the WTO is to open trade for the benefit of all."

    "The WTO has over 160 members representing 98 per cent of world trade. Over 20 countries are seeking to join the WTO."

    "The WTO derives most of the income for its annual budget from contributions by its members. These contributions are based on a formula that takes into account each member's share of international trade."

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