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Thread: Brexit, yes or no?

  1. #151
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Best read by candle light....
    As practice for the future.....
    Private Frazer comes to mind!

    https://www.ft.com/content/e33d5f12-...5-e94187b3017e

  2. #152
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Best read by candle light....
    As practice for the future.....
    Private Frazer comes to mind!

    https://www.ft.com/content/e33d5f12-...5-e94187b3017e
    Sorry,saving up for disaster,so cannot afford the pound.

  3. #153
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    As Richard Littlejohn says, "lets have another referendum, let's have a vote to abolish the House of Lords" They are an unelected bunch of t0$$3rs who are going to scupper Brexit. They are only there because Blair abolished hereditary peers and since then anyone who has cosied up to the Government of the day by being a school mate or bunging them some money has got themselves a seat and 300/day just to turn up.

  4. #154
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    As Richard Littlejohn says, "lets have another referendum, let's have a vote to abolish the House of Lords" They are an unelected bunch of t0$$3rs who are going to scupper Brexit. They are only there because Blair abolished hereditary peers and since then anyone who has cosied up to the Government of the day by being a school mate or bunging them some money has got themselves a seat and 300/day just to turn up.
    On the "other side of the pond", there has been similar calls about the Canadian Senate - either abolishing it or making it an elected body (like the lower house - In Canada, the House of Commons).

    As I see it, the problem with making it elected includes:
    - having another group of legislators who are beholding to their "back room boys" and their "donors" - just look at the US system which also elects judges and state attorneys (lead prosecutors).

    and the problem with doing away with it includes:
    - having a strong PM with a strong majority becoming a virtual dictator due to there being no possible opposition / "sober second view"

    "darned if you do" and "darned if you don't"?

  5. #155
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Wise words there Ironhead but having an unelected House that has said, almost en bloc, that they are going to scupper Brexit means that the will of the people isn't going to be enacted Getting away from a bunch of unelected Eurocrats was one of the main reasons why the country voted for Brexit but it appears that we have a bunch of equally squalid time wasters on our doorstep.

  6. #156
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Sorry,saving up for disaster,so cannot afford the pound.
    Google this phrase should do the trick ....and save the !

    Brexit and agriculture: British farmers to plough new course


  7. #157
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Google this phrase should do the trick ....and save the !

    Brexit and agriculture: British farmers to plough new course
    Thanks have read that, quite interesting, with reservations.
    Not everyone can open up an ice cream parlour!
    hThere is one near here, between Hornsea and Bridlington, very successful, called Mr Moo. It was set up with about a quarter of a million grant.
    All of these ideas are to my mind Pie in the sky, as it was when we lost production related subsidies. Make your living out of the market place?
    Ok if the market place was not heavily biased against the basic producer, resulting in abysmal commodity prices worldwide.One of our farmer members of our discussion group has just been to New Zealand and seen the effect of their getting rid of subsidies. Huge numbers of livestock, with welfare standards that would put us in to court in this country.
    Gove is jumping on the pressure group, populist band wagon that bears no relation to the real world.
    His policies ignore the need for food security. That was OK when we were a manufacturing nation, and we had North Sea oil.Now we are rapidly approaching the status of a third world nation. It is just possible the combination of the devaluation of the pound and Brexit will help us to resume some of that. The devaluation will also help us as a double edged sword for Europe, our imports from them are vastly greater than our our exports. We might for instance be able to regain for instance our pig market which they have stolen from us alongside our fishing industry.
    It is all a complicated picture, the real truth of it all is now being withheld from us all by the overwhelming mistruths put about now by the remoaners who now seem to be conducting a very strong campaign against Brexit, against a democratic vote of the people.
    Southern Ireland all over again!
    jack caley

  8. #158
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    In any case British people voted on an immigragation and benefits issue.
    I know lots of people that voted leave - all pro immigration and with pro-democracy as their main reason for voting.

  9. #159
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by jj5b View Post
    I know lots of people that voted leave - all pro immigration and with pro-democracy as their main reason for voting.
    Of course we all know people who voted differently from us, it was a divided nation.
    fact was the democratic vote was for leave.

  10. #160
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Of course we all know people who voted differently from us, it was a divided nation.
    fact was the democratic vote was for leave.
    Yes it was but based on skewed facts.
    Would it be the same when all the full deal is sorted and everybody can see what its actually going to be, not the empty promises of grass greener on the other side

  11. #161
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAndy View Post
    Yes it was but based on skewed facts.
    Would it be the same when all the full deal is sorted and everybody can see what its actually going to be, not the empty promises of grass greener on the other side
    The grass was greener on the other side. Jack & I have been there - pre Common Market.

  12. #162
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAndy View Post
    Yes it was but based on skewed facts.
    Would it be the same when all the full deal is sorted and everybody can see what its actually going to be, not the empty promises of grass greener on the other side
    Actually I do not believe it was based on skewed facts.Boris has confirmed he was wrong! It was actually higher!
    When yo look at the figure it was actually correct, that is what was paid to Europe.
    A confirmation for instance could be taken for instance in the CAP payments, we paid that over, Europe stipulated how it was administered more or less here.Many people are against the CAP payments,for instance Gove. Maybe he is right, it has deteriorated in to distorted Payment to huge landowners.The fact is Europe is telling us how to spend our own money.
    The net payment, some three to four billion paid to them is being squandered on fat cats in Brussels, when it ought to be spent on our health services and housing.The tragedy that was Grenfell tower ought to point out to the politicians that we need to make provision for these extra twenty million people that we have accumulated over the last thirty years.
    jack caley

  13. #163
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Actually I do not believe it was based on skewed facts.Boris has confirmed he was wrong! It was actually higher!
    When yo look at the figure it was actually correct, that is what was paid to Europe.
    A confirmation for instance could be taken for instance in the CAP payments, we paid that over, Europe stipulated how it was administered more or less here.Many people are against the CAP payments,for instance Gove. Maybe he is right, it has deteriorated in to distorted Payment to huge landowners.The fact is Europe is telling us how to spend our own money.
    The net payment, some three to four billion paid to them is being squandered on fat cats in Brussels, when it ought to be spent on our health services and housing.The tragedy that was Grenfell tower ought to point out to the politicians that we need to make provision for these extra twenty million people that we have accumulated over the last thirty years.
    jack caley
    Bear in mind that CAP subsidies in their current form are intended to be paid to the person actually farming the land. the reason that in many case in the UK it is not is because our govt, not the EU, chose to define an active farmer so broadly as to include pretty much anyone who owns land and can print of a boilerplate contract farming agreement. Our govt have chosen to implement the CAP in such a way that benefits the wealthy over ordinary farmers, how do you think it's going to work out for us when they have 100% control of farm policy?

    As for the 350 million a week guff, if you genuinely believe there's any merit to that claim or indeed think that Boris has even a shred of credibility, i have a bridge over the English Channel i'd like to sell you.

  14. #164
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post

    As for the 350 million a week guff, if you genuinely believe there's any merit to that claim or indeed think that Boris has even a shred of credibility, i have a bridge over the English Channel i'd like to sell you.
    When can we start? Before or after the Island airport and let's not forget HS.

  15. #165
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Bear in mind that CAP subsidies in their current form are intended to be paid to the person actually farming the land. the reason that in many case in the UK it is not is because our govt, not the EU, chose to define an active farmer so broadly as to include pretty much anyone who owns land and can print of a boilerplate contract farming agreement. Our govt have chosen to implement the CAP in such a way that benefits the wealthy over ordinary farmers, how do you think it's going to work out for us when they have 100% control of farm policy?

    As for the 350 million a week guff, if you genuinely believe there's any merit to that claim or indeed think that Boris has even a shred of credibility, i have a bridge over the English Channel i'd like to sell you.
    The 350 million a week was not guff for a start.We paid that to them, they spent as they thought, mostly on their salaries. I agree with you as to how it was implemented in this country. That was nothing new, even in the old NFU days policy was usually rigged towards either larger farmers or the dairy guys.
    Coming back to Boris, this morning he is pressing for 100 million week for the health service.Just goes to show he is more in tune politically than May and Hammond. They handed the majority over purely because Corbyn outstaged them socially.
    As to the airport, some might think that was a good idea. Sydney, Gibaraltar, Malta all thought so. But then we have no people with vision in this country, only if we want silly trains.
    I do not like the bridge across the channel, much as I like French cheese and wine!
    Boris tactic is good because otherwise we look to be losing Brexit.
    jack caley

  16. #166
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Boris is out for Boris and no one else.
    The illusion that he is in tune is entirely incidental to his attempt at climbing the greasy pole.
    Without Brexit he would be just another MP ....

  17. #167
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Boris is out for Boris and no one else.
    The illusion that he is in tune is entirely incidental to his attempt at climbing the greasy pole.
    Without Brexit he would be just another MP ....
    Regrettably you could be right.
    I really cannot understand the motives of politicians.
    However there is one thing, Boris is being supported by other members of the cabinet.
    In any case I believe that the net 3 or 4 billion should have been paid to the UK for our NHS and infrastructure to help house the thousands of EU citizens we have now got, claiming benefits.
    Hull alone has thousands!!
    regards,
    jack caley

  18. #168
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    . . .
    I really cannot understand the motives of politicians.
    . . .
    jack caley
    Job 1 of any politician is to get elected

    Job 2 of any politician is to get re-elected

    Job 3 of any politician is to keep getting re-elected until they can draw their pension.

    Job 4 of any politician is to keep their "back room boys" happy

    you and I and our concerns come somewhere after this

  19. #169
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    Job 1 of any politician is to get elected

    Job 2 of any politician is to get re-elected

    Job 3 of any politician is to keep getting re-elected until they can draw their pension.

    Job 4 of any politician is to keep their "back room boys" happy

    you and I and our concerns come somewhere after this
    Quite a good sum up of most politicians!
    However it does not help me with my concerns for myself and my country.
    jack caley

  20. #170
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Quite a good sum up of most politicians!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    However it does not help me with my concerns for myself and my country.
    jack caley
    Actually, Jack, I think it does. If you want to move from "the bottom of the list", then you have to work to get the politician elected - if already elected, then work to get the politician re-elected and keep her / him re-elected.

    In other words, you have to become one of the "back room boys" or stay with the rest of us peons by bending over and saying "yes sir".

    As you can tell, I don't hold politicians in a very high regard.

  21. #171
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The 350 million a week was not guff for a start.We paid that to them,
    No we don't. Firstly it's the figure before the UK rebate is applied, the rebate is deducted at source so the uk government never pays it, it's knocked off the total before payment. It ignores the money we get back mostly in the form of payments to farmers and in the form of development grants for poorer areas like cornwall. Then there's around 1bn payed directly to private enterprise in the form of research grants. The Uk actually paid around 250 million a week in 2016, some of which we get back in various forms. Overall the uk paid around 8.6 billion, but this isn't a zero sum game, we derive economic benefits from EU membership which are much harder to quantify, never the less, there will be negative economic impacts to leaving, so the idea that there will be 250 million a week let alone 350 million extra every week to spend how we want is bollocks. It is a factually incorrect statement to begin with and the issue of payments to the EU is more complex that simply us handing over money for nothing anyway. The people who made this claim were lying.

  22. #172
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    No we don't. Firstly it's the figure before the UK rebate is applied, the rebate is deducted at source so the uk government never pays it, it's knocked off the total before payment. It ignores the money we get back mostly in the form of payments to farmers and in the form of development grants for poorer areas like cornwall. Then there's around 1bn payed directly to private enterprise in the form of research grants. The Uk actually paid around 250 million a week in 2016, some of which we get back in various forms. Overall the uk paid around 8.6 billion, but this isn't a zero sum game, we derive economic benefits from EU membership which are much harder to quantify, never the less, there will be negative economic impacts to leaving, so the idea that there will be 250 million a week let alone 350 million extra every week to spend how we want is bollocks. It is a factually incorrect statement to begin with and the issue of payments to the EU is more complex that simply us handing over money for nothing anyway. The people who made this claim were lying.
    They were not lying, you have said so yourself.
    If you receive an invoice, but then get a contra, you have still paid the invoice. The fact is that the amount is paid over notionally but the EU stipulates how it is spent.
    I agree it is very difficult to arrive at a precise figure for development grants etc, but if I am correct a lot of those were match funded because of Maggie.
    The fact remains that there is still a huge net figure going to Brussels to keep the whole mess afloat. Why are Brussels so insistent on the 40 billion or whatever it is?
    As to economic benefits to this country, in my opinion that is very problematic, why did they allow us in to the single market anyway? They halved our pig industry, they register fishing vessels in Hull and unload the catch in Holland, in many ways the market has been very one sided.Of course they do not want us to avoid their tariffs and the Irish border open, it will be an even greater scam than the Luxembourg fuel scam brought about by Barnier, or whichever one of those crooks it was.
    Do not believe any of this European unity nonsense, the whole thing is just a hardnosed socialist protectionist robbery.
    Jack Caley
    Last edited by Jack_Caley; 29-01-18 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Deletion

  23. #173
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    UK fishermen were queuing up to sell their quotas and take the scrappage payment for their trawlers.
    Can't have it both ways!

  24. #174
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    They were not lying, you have said so yourself.
    If you receive an invoice, but then get a contra, you have still paid the invoice. The fact is that the amount is paid over notionally but the EU stipulates how it is spent.
    A rebate isn't a contra, it's a discount.

    If i sell you something for a 100 but offer a 20% discount, you've paid 80.

    If i sell you something for 100 and you sell me something back for 20, so i knock 20 off the invoice, that' a contra and though you've only given me 80 you've still paid 100.

    350 million a week is the before the rebate is applied, and ignores the money we get back in farm payments and development grants. It is a bullshit figure, the people who used it were lying outright since it is not the amount paid and were also being disingenuous to imply that any of this money would be available to spend on the NHS if we leave the EU since it isn't that simple.

    It's as if you were paying an annual membership fee of 500 to be part of a farming co op that entitled you to a discount on your inputs and guaranteed a price for your outputs, you wouldn't say that if you left the co op you'd be 500 a year better off because you could well be paying more money for your supplies and receiving less for your produce.

    also, if you'd told the co op to go ahead and build a new centralised grain store for members' grain, and that you woul chip in your share to pay for it, they might expect you to honor this commitment even if you leave, hence the 40 billion the EU want from us a a settlement fee. Mr Farage's pension won't pay itself, you know.

  25. #175
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    A rebate isn't a contra, it's a discount.

    If i sell you something for a 100 but offer a 20% discount, you've paid 80.

    If i sell you something for 100 and you sell me something back for 20, so i knock 20 off the invoice, that' a contra and though you've only given me 80 you've still paid 100.

    350 million a week is the before the rebate is applied, and ignores the money we get back in farm payments and development grants. It is a bullshit figure, the people who used it were lying outright since it is not the amount paid and were also being disingenuous to imply that any of this money would be available to spend on the NHS if we leave the EU since it isn't that simple.

    It's as if you were paying an annual membership fee of 500 to be part of a farming co op that entitled you to a discount on your inputs and guaranteed a price for your outputs, you wouldn't say that if you left the co op you'd be 500 a year better off because you could well be paying more money for your supplies and receiving less for your produce.

    also, if you'd told the co op to go ahead and build a new centralised grain store for members' grain, and that you woul chip in your share to pay for it, they might expect you to honor this commitment even if you leave, hence the 40 billion the EU want from us a a settlement fee. Mr Farage's pension won't pay itself, you know.
    The fact remains that the figure was not a lie.If your boss gives you your wages and then tells you how to spend two thirds of it, you would not think you had got your wages.
    Actuall, Nigel has always been open about his remuneration.I think the biggest hypocrite is Nick Clegg.
    Close by my sister is a so called flood protection scheme supposed to be European money. It has never worked, will never work, the biggest waste of money you ever saw. I think we would be better spending our own money the way WE think fit.
    jack caley

  26. #176
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The fact remains that the figure was not a lie.
    It was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Close by my sister is a so called flood protection scheme supposed to be European money. It has never worked, will never work, the biggest waste of money you ever saw.
    Who designed the scheme?

  27. #177
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    It was.
    You are correct apparently it was more.


    Who designed the scheme?
    A rather stupid local East Yorkshire councillor who had control of all that money. He would not listen to my brother in law who was actually flooded out.
    Jack Caley

  28. #178
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    You are correct apparently it was more.
    Jack Caley
    The lie was 350m/week to the NHS. The actual saving from leaving the EU is 250m. Where's the other 100m/week coming from? You know, the 100m that never left the treasury.
    Do you think Philip hammond's been putting it under his mattress? Or do you think maybe it's already being spent?
    You can't spend the same money twice, unless you're committing fraud...

  29. #179
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Close by my sister is a so called flood protection scheme supposed to be European money. It has never worked, will never work, the biggest waste of money you ever saw. I think we would be better spending our own money the way WE think fit.
    jack caley
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    A rather stupid local East Yorkshire councillor who had control of all that money.
    Jack Caley

  30. #180
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    Re: Brexit, yes or no?

    Spot the Bull!
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