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Thread: My suffolk lambed

  1. #1
    4wd
    Guest

    My suffolk lambed

    I only have one - the rest are mules - she somehow got in lamb as a gimmer about 5 years ago and has lambed every year since.

    Trouble is being in lamb to a (different) Suffolk tup results in altogether too much Suffolkness and the lambs are complete thickheads every year.
    I brought her in this time in advance and needless to say she's had a pair and is trotting back and forth between one trying to climb in a bucket and the other intent on finding a teat up the wall.

    She's a quiet thing and with a bit of persevering and wishing you had two more hands both have been sucking simultaneously and she just stands there while I fiddle about.
    It will probably take them about a week to be able to recognise the big woolly thing as milk bar.

  2. #2
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    I will never understand the attraction of Suffolks.

    Texels are king, born sucking

  3. #3
    Poorbuthappy
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed



    I've seen the light. Only suffolk on this place now is a NZ Suffolk.
    Hardly let a lamb suck, nor had much trouble lambing them

  4. #4
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    I will never understand the attraction of Suffolks.

    Texels are king, born sucking

    Starting to think id rather have a Suffolk X ewe over a Texel X ewe.

    Have had plenty texel lambs that are useless sucklers. Depends on the breeding behind the rams i guess, along with other things.

    Suffolks are good, if you keep their copper, cobalt and selenium levels up and get the lambs away as soon as they are ready. Texels lend themselves more to you picking when you fatten them and get rid.

  5. #5
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nithsdale farmer View Post
    Starting to think id rather have a Suffolk X ewe over a Texel X ewe.

    Have had plenty texel lambs that are useless sucklers. Depends on the breeding behind the rams i guess, along with other things.

    Suffolks are good, if you keep their copper, cobalt and selenium levels up and get the lambs away as soon as they are ready. Texels lend themselves more to you picking when you fatten them and get rid.
    I meant the lamb vitality not the ewes although I rate Texel ewes out of Blackies very highly.

    I have lambed my texel ewe hoggs to a beltex this year as well and the hoggs have been great, the lambs have been small and soft as tho. I think texels are the best.

    Start a contract lambing tomorrow with Lleyns, Blackies, Texels, Mules, Charolais, Suffolks and mongrels of the above, I'll let you know who is the best, if I survive

  6. #6
    4wd
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Suffolks out of mules are generally very good, it's when you get near to all Suffolk the problems start!

  7. #7
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    I meant the lamb vitality not the ewes although I rate Texel ewes out of Blackies very highly.

    I have lambed my texel ewe hoggs to a beltex this year as well and the hoggs have been great, the lambs have been small and soft as tho. I think texels are the best.

    Start a contract lambing tomorrow with Lleyns, Blackies, Texels, Mules, Charolais, Suffolks and mongrels of the above, I'll let you know who is the best, if I survive

    Think the vitality all comes down to getting the right feeding/minerals ect into the ewes during pregnancy - but then thats the case with any breed.

    Beltex is tremendous for hoggs. I find hogg lambs are sometimes abit soft - something to do with the hogg still developing herself maybe?

    If you like texel out of blackies, you would like the lleyn from them too. Look just like the texel. Hardiest lambs iv ever worked with and the wedders grow very fast, they make great ewes and the tex X or beltex X lambs from them look 3/4

    Iv a single suffolk x ewe running, she is supposed to have lleyn in her but looks almost pure. I put her to the texel and the lambs are easily my best every year. Kind of wishing i had some lowland ground and could run a flock like Skoda has.

  8. #8
    spark_28
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    i have one suffolk too, shes a hardy thing that has given me singles both years but she does a cracking job in rearing a lamb, has the best lamb this year, from a texel tup, great mother too. I dont use a suffolk tup though, my dad used to use one years ago and whilst good lambs, as everyone knows they are a nightmare.

  9. #9
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nithsdale farmer View Post
    Think the vitality all comes down to getting the right feeding/minerals ect into the ewes during pregnancy - but then thats the case with any breed.

    Beltex is tremendous for hoggs. I find hogg lambs are sometimes abit soft - something to do with the hogg still developing herself maybe?

    If you like texel out of blackies, you would like the lleyn from them too. Look just like the texel. Hardiest lambs iv ever worked with and the wedders grow very fast, they make great ewes and the tex X or beltex X lambs from them look 3/4

    Iv a single suffolk x ewe running, she is supposed to have lleyn in her but looks almost pure. I put her to the texel and the lambs are easily my best every year. Kind of wishing i had some lowland ground and could run a flock like Skoda has.
    One place I worked we had mules put to suffolks and texels and put those ewes back to the opposite tup. They were good ewes.

    I said I rate them highly, I don't like them

    I don't give my sheep any minerals, hardly any feeding, just hay and the lambs are vital as anything

    I hope you are right about the beltex lambs, I have always wanted a beltex, be gutted if they are a let down now I have one.

  10. #10
    Poorbuthappy
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    Suffolks out of mules are generally very good, it's when you get near to all Suffolk the problems start!
    Mmmm, the suffolks are harder to get out of the mules than the NZ variety ime (not seriously but certainly have to help several), and definately slower to suck, not unusual to need help.
    Tried a Berrichon on some mules last year and said their lambs were up and sucking before the suff lambs had decided that breathing is a full time occupation.
    Was 50:50 mule and suff/mule, but no more for me!

  11. #11
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    One place I worked we had mules put to suffolks and texels and put those ewes back to the opposite tup. They were good ewes.

    I said I rate them highly, I don't like them

    I don't give my sheep any minerals, hardly any feeding, just hay and the lambs are vital as anything

    I hope you are right about the beltex lambs, I have always wanted a beltex, be gutted if they are a let down now I have one.

    Do the resulting fat lambs off both them look the same? The tex x out of suffolk have speckled faces and legs, would imagine the suffolk x out of texel would just be brown?

    Well, i think youd rate the lleyn from blackie even higher

    Do you not put the odd min bucket out to your ewes? We are abit deficiant here, used Lifeline blocks and crystalix hi-energy pre lambing last couple years and the differance in the lambs is night and day. Dont feed them much, about 1/2lb each for the last 6-8 weeks pre lambing just to stop them losing condition. Keep the hi-energy out at them into may though to keep ewes performing and keeps milk fever away.

    Sure your beltex's will be fine, but the saying "never meet your idols, youl only be dissapointed" does come to mind

  12. #12
    easyram1
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    About 50% of the NZ Suffolks we sell are being used to breed females for retention. They are mainly used on Mules but on other breeds as well. In NZ Suffolks are used purely as terminal sires due to colour marking their offspring. Interestingly the NZ Texels are used very much as a dual purpose breed with a strong emphasis on their maternal as well as their terminal qualities.
    I read constant complaints re UK Suffolks. I do not have current figs but 7 or 8 years ago the av Suffolk flock was about 35 ewes and Texels only slightly bigger. This gives owners plenty of time to lamb ewes: tube lambs: put sheep under heat lamps and all the other things that make a good ram breeder. The cross bred ewes created by putting terminal sires on Mules etc obviously have hybrid vigour, being a three way cross, which is good but probably dont inherit too many brains from their dad's side of the mix

  13. #13
    hell4leather
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    :lolk::lolk::lolk::lolk::lolk: this is exactly what i have found , i have one suffolk ewe and she is a complete muppet , i only keep her to remind me why i dont keep them any more . all ewes are scottish mules . if i ever found a suffolk tup on the farm i would shoot it . all tups are beltex cross charollais , lambs are great and i cant think of any weeknesses with them , makes lambing sheep good fun again ( almost):lolk:

  14. #14
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    What Suffolk breeders in the different parts of the world have done to stuff up their breed its just amazing!!!!!

    I have been deeply shocked at the lack of functionality which has developed in UK Suffolks as they have chased extreme types.

    Yet in NZ the Suffolk is the most popular breed for hill and high (mountainous) country as it is the most vigorous and active breed to put over such large flocks where terrain is challenging.

    Think "Icebreaker" Merino clothing....it's NZ Suffolks with their athelicism that is the most popular breed here as they can cover 150 ewes each in these mountains and their lambs won't cause lambing trouble because in this country nil shepherding is essential and Merino ewes are quite small...40-55 kgs live weight. NZ Suffolk lambs are very active and do very well on poorer quality pasture. They have superior feet to other prime lamb breeds.

  15. #15
    skoda
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by easyram1 View Post
    I read constant complaints re UK Suffolks. I do not have current figs but 7 or 8 years ago the av Suffolk flock was about 35 ewes and Texels only slightly bigger. This gives owners plenty of time to lamb ewes: tube lambs: put sheep under heat lamps and all the other things that make a good ram breeder. The cross bred ewes created by putting terminal sires on Mules etc obviously have hybrid vigour, being a three way cross, which is good but probably don't inherit too many brains from their dad's side of the mix
    While I genuinely respect what you are now doing ,it does somewhat sick in my throat a little bit when I look back at how your flock developed from Lloyd Shevlock bloodlines to what you ended up with . As a main player you where part of the problem,having said that I only care that you breed good sheep that could make amends and hopefully broaden the choice available ,and unlike most Suffolk breeders I am not jealous or consider you a threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    What Suffolk breeders in the different parts of the world have done to stuff up their breed its just amazing!!!!!

    I have been deeply shocked at the lack of functionality which has developed in UK Suffolk's as they have chased extreme types.

    .
    Fair comment ,but almost every other terminal sire breed in this country is traveling down the same road ,simply because there are a number of key players who are current and ex breeders of Suffolk's and many others that have not kept them have the same mentality .
    Lack of vigour is most certainly the Suffolk Achilles heel and I make no denial.The reality is that the Suffolk was the first breed to be altered for the show ring ,Pyramid hyping their pedigrees in the sale ring and force fed beyond their genetic potential, all the others simply have followed. Its no secret that there are a few top Texel flocks that don't cull ewes that are one quarter because they have in their eyes a exceptional pedigree.Has there been any attempt to breed Charolais lambs born with wool on .We all can throw stones but most live in houses with glass ,even if some have more glass than others.

    Personally I don't care that the Suffolk regains or maintains its market share ,IMO Texel breeds are the steady eddies that suit most farms and markets ,but I would like to see Suffolk's with more vigour because the attributes of fast growth and good weights ,plus the black gene that produces an alternative type of meat , is something that would sorely missed.

  16. #16
    sheepwreck
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    I will never understand the attraction of Suffolks.

    Texels are king, born sucking
    Anything else is King! Suffolks have non-sucking genes bred in!

  17. #17
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Hell Sheepwreck, did you not read my post. Suffolks in NZ have more suck than a venturi tube. The problem with your experience is that the UK show ring breeders undid in 50 years what nature got right over millions of years. Fortunately Suffolks got from the UK to NZ before all this happened. Now Suffolks are flying back to Britain to undo the damage.

    Unfortunately UK Texel breeders are going down the same path and forgetting about functionality too.

    With the financial constrainsts being inevitable in the EU to support the current level of ag. subsidies and rapidly rising price levels of world grain, no breeder who thinks that sheep which require more labour and ever increasing reliance on concentrate feeds will have a business that will survive past the next decade.

    I see a sea-change in farmer attitude to sheep farming as a business occurring from my regular visits to the UK and Ireland over the last decade. The "Romney" thread has seen these expressions well discussed.

  18. #18
    Frank_the_Wool
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    I will not have a Suffolk on the farm and have not for many years.
    GO's comments about UK Texels going the same way is all too true, it has become difficult to buy grass fed easy lambing Texels.

    We have had to breed our own to get what we want!

    Breeders of Suffolks seem to have tried to use thicker and thicker sheep, bones and intelligence that is.
    I breed a small number of Southdowns for our own use, due once again of the difficulty of buying the right type of terminal, these are mostly NZ and French blood. This was obviously a breed that has been closely shepherded all of its existence.
    It appears to be very prolific with triplets being common, however if left to there own devices they would be lucky to rear one lamb each. They lamb easily, but for some reason they have little or no milk when the lambs are born. It comes in about 24 hours later!
    Then they will normally have enough to rear two.
    If these sheep had been left on the Downs unshepherded they would have died out or a different sheep would have evolved. John Ellman is responsible all those years ago when wool and meat was worth much more than today!

    I do remember seeing in NZ South/Suffolk rams, a Southdown and Suffolk cross.
    I would guess that the present NZ Suffolk has part of it's origins in the Southdown.

  19. #19
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_the_Wool View Post

    I would guess that the present NZ Suffolk has part of it's origins in the Southdown.
    The Suffolk breed originated from a cross of the Norfolk Horn and Southdown in Britain and fixed as a breed.

    This breed proved very hardy and adaptable it spread throughout the UK and had the honour of being the first terminal (prime lamb) sire to represent 50% of terminal sire usage. (It didn't gain this status by being the difficult animal it is recognised as now).

    UK Suffolks were first imported into NZ from the mid 1940s to the unfortunate last shipment in 1952, which was found to have a case of scrapie and all slaughtered and burnt. The Suffolk breed in NZ is regarded as very hardy and having excellent survival at birth, so necessary in most of NZ's hill and high country where it is physically imposible to shepherd, therefore nil human intervention occurs. The main differences that have occurred since importation 60 years ago are increasing meat yield in the carcass (NZ farmers are paid premiums on carcass meat yield in the 3 main primal joints) and fining of the shoulders to promote easy birth. The shape, height, length and natural vigour of NZ Suffolks is a snapshot at what was in the UK 60 years ago.

    Since arrival in NZ, Suffolks have been crossed with the Southdown again and fixed as a breed called South Suffolks. These were very popular as for 50 years our lamb trade was dictated by the UK market wanting 12-17kg lamb carcasses.
    In the last 10 years we see Suffolks again being the base breed to be crossed with NZ Texels (Sufftex) in order to increase meat yields. Some Suffolk breeders have back crossed (introgressed) Sufftex to Suffolk with the aim of retaining the active and fast growth of a black faced terminal with 2 copies of MyoMAX (10% more muscle) capable of 20+kg carcasses required by the burgeoning Asian market.

    The NZ Suffolk is a potent force in the NZ sheep industry where shepherds are expected to manage 3500 sheep each, and sheep are expected to carry out what nature intended them to do....reproduce successfully.

  20. #20
    Marches Farmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    What Suffolk breeders in the different parts of the world have done to stuff up their breed its just amazing!!!!!

    I have been deeply shocked at the lack of functionality which has developed in UK Suffolks as they have chased extreme types.

    Yet in NZ the Suffolk is the most popular breed for hill and high (mountainous) country as it is the most vigorous and active breed to put over such large flocks where terrain is challenging.
    Last year Adam Henson went back to the original cross that formed the Suffolk - Southdown on Norfolk Horn. The carcase of the NH improved but I bet the lambs were tough as old boots. We put a Southdown on our Badger Face every other year and the lambs are very vigorous and look quite like Lleyns at first - no black at all, but a much better carcase and their fleece upgraded beyond recognition.

  21. #21
    easyram1
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    [QUOTE=skoda;902766]While I genuinely respect what you are now doing ,it does somewhat sick in my throat a little bit when I look back at how your flock developed from Lloyd Shevlock bloodlines to what you ended up with . As a main player you where part of the problem,having said that I only care that you breed good sheep that could make amends and hopefully broaden the choice available ,and unlike most Suffolk breeders I am not jealous or consider you a threat.

    Skoda - Your refernce to the Shelvock flock brings back very happy memories as its owner Ted Lloyd was one of my father's closest friends for over thirty years. Indeed the popularity of his sheep particularly in North Wales was such that his customers used to say they had a Shelvock as opposed to a Suffolk ram!!. In terms of my being part of the problem and thus part of the cause for the decline of the Suffolk breed this may well be true. However I am not sure if "the problem" should be attributed to the sellers or the buyers. When we were towards the top of the pyramid in the 80s and particularly the 90s we bred the type of sheep that the market appeared to want or certainly the pedigree end of it. In the 10 years from 1990 we sold over 300 rams to other suffolk breeders and over 20 years we sold over 1000 pedigree females, and so we appeared to be doing the right thing.However by concentrating on the show and pedigree end our sheep did subtly change over time as the pedigree market tends to look for extremes. So when our pedigree sheep went out of fashion as will always happen eventually we were left with no home commercial trade as we had bred sheep that commercial farmers did not want.

    So with no market for our sheep we took the decision to start again as ram breeders and this time only supply what we could sell to the commercial farmer. Thus we went to NZ to bring back to the UK a breed that had been developed from sheep exported during the first half of the last century. Interestingly in terms of appearance ie fine heads less bone and silky black hair and particularly their ability to thrive on grass these sheep are very similar what my dad bought ought of Bury St Edmunds in 1952 and they would definitely be able to fit into the Shelvock flock

  22. #22
    naughtyfarmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Suffolks, are brill, have a personality, when feeding head always mange to be the first ones in the way while mules will stand back and let you feed, greedy Suffolks as always!!!!

    Then they just lay there for 5 hrs before they get up and think about living and then they need 10t of grub!!! But I love em to bits!!!

    So a suffolk x mule is fab! And these crossed with a charolais, well that cant be beaten!!!

    As for those poxy texels with shoulders, broad heads they are damn hard work to lamb. I dont want the damn things

  23. #23
    Inbye
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    I think its too simplistic to pigeon hole suffolks into 2 groups, 1. the big headed and heavily boned lambs and 2. the NZ suffolks which are bred purely commercial.

    IMO there are some good suffolk breeders who breed a commercial type of UK suffolk that don't have the big heads and thick bones. Admitedly they are hard to find but I have seen some good pens at Kelso, in the shearling section.

    I like the idea behind the NZ suffolks but do they have good enough conformation to stamp a lamb out of a mule?

  24. #24
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    if a bulky ram is needed to get a good lamb out of a mule ummmm i would be questioning the long term mind set once SFP's are droped

    there lies 1/2 the prob as well farmers wanting bigger rams breed to make up for what the ewes lacking then saying stuck lambs health probs no return for wool etc etc ..

  25. #25
    devils advocate
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by JD_Kid View Post
    if a bulky ram is needed to get a good lamb out of a mule ummmm i would be questioning the long term mind set once SFP's are droped

    there lies 1/2 the prob as well farmers wanting bigger rams breed to make up for what the ewes lacking then saying stuck lambs health probs no return for wool etc etc ..
    Wonder why NZ farmers get their knickers so in a twist about SFP

    Local farm is coming up for rent, if rumours are to be beleived the rent will be 200 per acre SFP circa 80 per acre so 120 per acre rent if you knock off SFP. How many NZ farmers have to pay 120 per acre rent for land that lies wet unfit for a tractor for 4 months of the year, where snow even for a late lambing is likely. Where the public are encouraged to roam over the land (adverts on the radio telling them to do so, to improve health) bringing dogs with them, where landlords also rent out the shooting rights to hooligans who wreck fences, damage crops etc. Where paperwork is a fulltime job, where ditches, hedges & long term grass must not be touched without permission. Where death costs money to dispose off.

    If I'd no SFP, I would have to make sure every lamb lived, that it made the best possible price, pretty much the same as I do now.

  26. #26
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by devils advocate View Post
    Wonder why NZ farmers get their knickers so in a twist about SFP

    Local farm is coming up for rent, if rumours are to be beleived the rent will be 200 per acre SFP circa 80 per acre so 120 per acre rent if you knock off SFP. How many NZ farmers have to pay 120 per acre rent for land that lies wet unfit for a tractor for 4 months of the year, where snow even for a late lambing is likely. Where the public are encouraged to roam over the land (adverts on the radio telling them to do so, to improve health) bringing dogs with them, where landlords also rent out the shooting rights to hooligans who wreck fences, damage crops etc. Where paperwork is a fulltime job, where ditches, hedges & long term grass must not be touched without permission. Where death costs money to dispose off.

    If I'd no SFP, I would have to make sure every lamb lived, that it made the best possible price, pretty much the same as I do now.

    With no SFP there are an awful lot of farms will go under, because they bank on getting thier SFP to survive instead of changing breeds/systems to ensure they survive if the money was to dry up tomorrow. New Zealand has been weaned off sub's and - id presume - look to the UK, and most farms, as a ticking bomb about to implode and dissapear when that big fat cheque doesnt come through the post one December.

  27. #27
    devils advocate
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nithsdale farmer View Post
    With no SFP there are an awful lot of farms will go under, because they bank on getting thier SFP to survive instead of changing breeds/systems to ensure they survive if the money was to dry up tomorrow. New Zealand has been weaned off sub's and - id presume - look to the UK, and most farms, as a ticking bomb about to implode and dissapear when that big fat cheque doesnt come through the post one December.
    More of a problem for status car salesmen & land agents IMO.

  28. #28
    Inbye
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    Quote Originally Posted by JD_Kid View Post
    if a bulky ram is needed to get a good lamb out of a mule ummmm i would be questioning the long term mind set once SFP's are droped

    there lies 1/2 the prob as well farmers wanting bigger rams breed to make up for what the ewes lacking then saying stuck lambs health probs no return for wool etc etc ..
    I'm talking about carcass NOT huge big headed/big boned tups. IMO commercial type uk suffolks look to have a better carcass than their NZ counter parts.

    The biggest drivers to the profitability of my flock are ewes per acre and lambs per ewe. At the moment mules fit the bill, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to other breeds.

    PS how have bulky rams and the SFP got anything to do with picking a good suffolk to put over mule ewes?!!

  29. #29
    easyram1
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    [QUOTE=Inbye;903372]I'm talking about carcass NOT huge big headed/big boned tups. IMO commercial type uk suffolks look to have a better carcass than their NZ counter parts.

    The view that NZ Suffolks compare unfavourably carcasswise with commercial type UK Suffolks is not born out by the facts. According to Signet's across breed figures our pure NZ Suffolks compare very favourably with their UK cousins with our flock average in the top 25% of the breed from a zero start only 5 years ago. Many individual sheep are in the top 5%.
    In terms of appearance we have the only 100% pure NZ Suffolks in the country so most people have not seen them and what are referred to as NZ bred at Kelso are normally at best only 25% NZ blood. In addition we are making dramatic progress in improving their overall muscularity on a year on year basis.
    To get an idea of what the real deal looks like there are plenty of Pics of our NZ Suffolk and Sufftex and Texel sheep and their offspring on www.easyrams.co.uk which I hope I am allowed to advertise. However to me the proper question is not only what they look like but what they and their offspring do on a grass only diet.

  30. #30
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: My suffolk lambed

    NF its a bad cycle more money so more payed for things at times over there true value be it rams or rent .. cars tractor all wear out so the dealers may loss in the short term but sooner or later they will make the sale

    120 an acre for how many ewes?? if say 4 ewes there would be alot of kiwis paying the same amount per head know dairy farmers paying alot higher that sheep and cropping guys will not even be in the market to rent the ground
    public here can even drive a car acrosss parts of farm land due to some laws same with rivers coastlines lakes etc .. RMA just talking to a few rangers here to day part of our scrub land could be placed under protection if the law was passed and enforced areas had to be fenced off at owners cost no payment for lost land .. just to doze a fence line if it goes to court to get approved 10-30 000 bucks in paper war ..

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