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Thread: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

  1. #1
    jackh
    Guest

    terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    what do people think about using as a terminal sire for a normal lowland flock of mashams, llyens and romneys. Texel ram or hampshire ram as meat lambs not breeding, because i have been looking at signet but your can't compare two breeds of sheep against each other on index point. and the flock is a normal april lambing and semi- intensive.

  2. #2
    Frances
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    From a personal experience (but perhaps limited)

    Texel: better conformation
    Hampshire: faster growing

    Texel: cleaner backends
    Hampshire: more suseptible to worms (definately more dirty)

    Hampshire: easier lambing??
    Texel: more appealing to buyers if selling live

    We run a semi-intensive outdoor lambing system as well and find texels have the slight edge - they cope better on poorer grazing whereas found that the Hampshire sired lambs give what you put in. Great growth rates with good grazing/creep but more easily set back in growth.

    Not sure if that helps.....

  3. #3
    welshmatt88
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    From a personal experience (but perhaps limited)

    Texel: better conformation
    Hampshire: faster growing

    Texel: cleaner backends
    Hampshire: more suseptible to worms (definately more dirty)

    Hampshire: easier lambing??
    Texel: more appealing to buyers if selling live

    We run a semi-intensive outdoor lambing system as well and find texels have the slight edge - they cope better on poorer grazing whereas found that the Hampshire sired lambs give what you put in. Great growth rates with good grazing/creep but more easily set back in growth.

    Not sure if that helps.....
    +1 couldn't put it better , depends on your system I guess , fast finishing and throwing creep at them then go for Hampshire , if not it must be a Texel

  4. #4
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    This question focusses on one of the biggest problems in the UK sheep industry.

    Signet is designed to cater for the requirements of Breed Societies. This question is from a commercial farmer wanting the best TRAITS to make a bob.

    Should not the UK sheep industry (NSA etc.) lobby for "across flock/breed comparisons" so farmers can compare which breeders of which breeds offer the most in which traits? This technology exists, but as yet the political will has not.

    This facility exists in other main sheep industries in the world eg. www.silace.co.nz

  5. #5
    Tim W
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    This question focusses on one of the biggest problems in the UK sheep industry.

    Signet is designed to cater for the requirements of Breed Societies. This question is from a commercial farmer wanting the best TRAITS to make a bob.

    Should not the UK sheep industry (NSA etc.) lobby for "across flock/breed comparisons" so farmers can compare which breeders of which breeds offer the most in which traits? This technology exists, but as yet the political will has not.

    This facility exists in other main sheep industries in the world eg. www.silace.co.nz
    +1
    Very true ----TRAITS not BREED are what we want measured

  6. #6
    NeilO
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    This question focusses on one of the biggest problems in the UK sheep industry.

    Signet is designed to cater for the requirements of Breed Societies. This question is from a commercial farmer wanting the best TRAITS to make a bob.

    Should not the UK sheep industry (NSA etc.) lobby for "across flock/breed comparisons" so farmers can compare which breeders of which breeds offer the most in which traits? This technology exists, but as yet the political will has not.

    This facility exists in other main sheep industries in the world eg. www.silace.co.nz
    I'm intrigued by how his could work in the UK, with such a diverse range of genetic requirements for the various different production systems. A different set of genetics is required on a hard hill farm in Sutherland, to that required in the soft South of England (around my outlaws place in Dorset, you see lots of palm trees in gardens). How does any cross breed analysis allow for these differences to say that sheep 'A' is better than sheep 'B'?

    BTW Jackh, you seem to have missed out the ideal breed for your requirements. One that will give you easy lambing, lively lambs at birth, fast growth rates, easy finishing off low inputs and lamb that will sell well fat or store (not that you see many sold as stores for some strange reason). I'll give you a clue, it starts with 'Ch'.

  7. #7
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilO View Post
    I'm intrigued by how his could work in the UK, with such a diverse range of genetic requirements for the various different production systems. A different set of genetics is required on a hard hill farm in Sutherland, to that required in the soft South of England (around my outlaws place in Dorset, you see lots of palm trees in gardens). How does any cross breed analysis allow for these differences to say that sheep 'A' is better than sheep 'B'?

    BTW Jackh, you seem to have missed out the ideal breed for your requirements. One that will give you easy lambing, lively lambs at birth, fast growth rates, easy finishing off low inputs and lamb that will sell well fat or store (not that you see many sold as stores for some strange reason). I'll give you a clue, it starts with 'Ch'.

    Think youve summed up the challenges pretty well Neil. Also the UK sheep industry is made up of lots and lots of differant crosses - NZ for instance, from what iv been lead to believe, isnt as much. Most are stabilised crosses or pure ewes which makes the joib a whole lot easier

    Also Neil - your right, its clear to see the breed he should be working with!!


    You did mean the Charmoise, didnt you

  8. #8
    kelpiej
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by jackh View Post
    what do people think about using as a terminal sire for a normal lowland flock of mashams, llyens and romneys. Texel ram or hampshire ram as meat lambs not breeding, because i have been looking at signet but your can't compare two breeds of sheep against each other on index point. and the flock is a normal april lambing and semi- intensive.
    i brought first texel ram last year on ebv only ,i lamb out doors romney and lleyn have no complants lambed easy great growth rates ,but also used dorset down brillant?

  9. #9
    sheepwreck
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Ovine View Post
    This question focusses on one of the biggest problems in the UK sheep industry.

    Signet is designed to cater for the requirements of Breed Societies. This question is from a commercial farmer wanting the best TRAITS to make a bob.

    Should not the UK sheep industry (NSA etc.) lobby for "across flock/breed comparisons" so farmers can compare which breeders of which breeds offer the most in which traits? This technology exists, but as yet the political will has not.

    This facility exists in other main sheep industries in the world eg. www.silace.co.nz
    The problem with Signet is that breed societies have been largely conspicuous by their absence in supporting performance recording and setting breed objectives. This has been the preserve of the relatively small number of breeders who have been performance recording. The Texel Society has belatedly taken an active interest in the breed's performance recording which is probably a good thing. I have no idea why we can't have across-breed comparisons as they are all recording the same traits.

  10. #10
    NeilO
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepwreck View Post
    The problem with Signet is that breed societies have been largely conspicuous by their absence in supporting performance recording and setting breed objectives. This has been the preserve of the relatively small number of breeders who have been performance recording. The Texel Society has belatedly taken an active interest in the breed's performance recording which is probably a good thing. I have no idea why we can't have across-breed comparisons as they are all recording the same traits.
    Presumably you'd need some common genetics between flocks, run on the same management system, much like using reference rams? Would that mean ever recording Texel breeder would have to keep a handful of recorded Charollais/Suffolk/Hampshire, just as a comparison or link?

    Isn't such a scheme now running in Ireland? How's it working, it must have been going for 2 or 3 years by now? I heard nothing but complaints in the early days (which may have been from vested interests). Perhaps GO could provide a progress report?

  11. #11
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilO View Post
    Presumably you'd need some common genetics between flocks, run on the same management system, much like using reference rams? Would that mean ever recording Texel breeder would have to keep a handful of recorded Charollais/Suffolk/Hampshire, just as a comparison or link?

    Isn't such a scheme now running in Ireland? How's it working, it must have been going for 2 or 3 years by now? I heard nothing but complaints in the early days (which may have been from vested interests). Perhaps GO could provide a progress report?
    The whole system for across breed trait comparison depends on linkages. In both NZ and Ireland most of that depends on Central Progeny Test Evaluation flocks (CPT) where rams from different breeders of different breeds are mated to 40-50 ewes from a large uniform mob of fully recorded ewes. In Ireland they also have the Maternal Lamb Production flocks (MaLP) which are primarily for regional demonstration, but offer additional linkages. Many other flocks also offer linkages as stock sires are used on more than one property.

    I was associated with the set-up of Sheep Ireland, there does appear to be an ongoing murmur of breeder disregard, but alot of commercial farmer interest and especially by the farmer lamb supply groups. Their Eurostar ranking of sale rams for traits such as growth, muscle etc. is rapidly gaining popularily as farmers learn what it represents. Has also been adopted by several breed societies.

    I have been using this technology (SILACE) in NZ since it's inception a decade ago. I know of no progressive breeder who does not rely on this information. In fact, these breeders use this info. for promotion if their ram(s) top a trait or index list. NO BREED DOMINATES, ONLY BREEDERS WHO HAVE DONE THE JOB.

    NZ farmers use of this technology is so popular now that cross breeding is used not to inject that breed, but to get a better dose of the traits that the farmer sees as neccessary to progress the ease of management and/or income. ie. most commercial Romney flocks now have some NZ Texel in it to increase toughness at birth and on poorer quality pasture and increase meat yields so lambs achieve a yield premium on the hooks.

  12. #12
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Texel is king.

  13. #13
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    Texel is king.
    What! And for which trait? Certainly not ease of lambing in most UK Texels.

    Very few Texels anywhere in the world would enhance lambing % of a flock.

    Most terminal sire breeds would produce lambs which grow faster....growth being extremely important for profit. In fact growth per kg of DM consumed is the #1 key performance indicator globally for profit from sheep farming.

    Meat yield (conformation?) is down the list for profit. But meat with growth is best after lambing % (extreme enironments excluded). Unfortunately not many rams are bought on growth records.....another bag of oats always fools them.

    SILACE in NZ has been the catalyst for Texels to improve lambing % and growth because breeders saw how far that breed was behind once they had real data to compare other breeds. Result......no breed now dominates, only good breeders irrespective of breed.

  14. #14
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Conformation, lamb vitality at birth and lamb hardiness.

    Leaves the others standing (or more accurately, dying!) IMO.

  15. #15
    clover
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    I have been buying rams on performance for some time now.Ive seen a big improvement in ease of lambing and growth rates whilst maintaining conformation.The only downside is that lambs dont batch so well for selling in the live ring due to skin types etc.But thats a very easy thing to sort should I want to.Not a problem for me as hang up a lot of my lambs.GO will be shaking his head at me,but improvements in lambing ease make a huge difference in an indoor lambing flock.I dont need a nightshift lamber now.Mismothering will be harder to sort.
    I certainly agree with the idea that we should be looking for traits when we buy a ram,rather than breeds.

  16. #16
    Tim W
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Croos breed evaluation is the way forward to identify sheep with superior genetics for specific traits and hence give the punter a chance to see which sheep (not breed) has the right traits for his/her environment

    I have been recording 2 'breeds' for many years and in the last 4 years have had some crossover. So there are now cross bred animals recorded in both breeds that have common linkage. I now do an acroos breed evaluation and so now know which sheep within which breed does what job and to what degree. Every breeder claims that his 'breed' is best for everything under the sun---i say give me proof

  17. #17
    Global Ovine
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by clover View Post
    I have been buying rams on performance for some time now.Ive seen a big improvement in ease of lambing and growth rates whilst maintaining conformation.The only downside is that lambs dont batch so well for selling in the live ring due to skin types etc.But thats a very easy thing to sort should I want to.Not a problem for me as hang up a lot of my lambs.GO will be shaking his head at me,but improvements in lambing ease make a huge difference in an indoor lambing flock.I dont need a nightshift lamber now.Mismothering will be harder to sort.
    I certainly agree with the idea that we should be looking for traits when we buy a ram,rather than breeds.
    GO is in absolute agreement. Functionality is the first thing a stockman can do as it can be seen and is a huge advantage in both indoor and outdoor situations. Selection for traits of importance (things which can't be seen) like a ewes lambing and weaning history, disease resistance, muscle size, growth etc. do need measuring.

    Trait improvement has made the Texel an important breed in NZ now that lambing difficulties, poor feet structure and growth rates have been corrected. If this had not happened and the UK type Texel had not been Kiwi-ised for functionality and better growth, it would have died out years ago.

  18. #18
    jackh
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    The reason behide choosing a hampshire or texel is because i want them and not a charollais because we are on the marsh which is quite harsh for them so i need something hardy-ish within reason. the system is not creep feed just of permanent pasture

  19. #19
    Inbye
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    Croos breed evaluation is the way forward to identify sheep with superior genetics for specific traits and hence give the punter a chance to see which sheep (not breed) has the right traits for his/her environment

    I have been recording 2 'breeds' for many years and in the last 4 years have had some crossover. So there are now cross bred animals recorded in both breeds that have common linkage. I now do an acroos breed evaluation and so now know which sheep within which breed does what job and to what degree. Every breeder claims that his 'breed' is best for everything under the sun---i say give me proof
    IF across breed analysis could be achieved it would be helpful.

    BUT if this is achieved through crossbreeding different terminal sires and keeping and breeding from these crossbreds it would be a travesty as uniformity and individual identity would be lost. It would make batching up lambs for live sale harder, and no, don't sell them dead or our industry will go down the pan.

  20. #20
    Daleslad
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    Conformation, lamb vitality at birth and lamb hardiness.

    Leaves the others standing (or more accurately, dying!) IMO.
    agree with all this. On nearly any farm lamb vitality and hardiness must be the most important traits. Dead lambs don't grow very fast, don't have much muscle and are very hard to sell. But conformation and things like a good skin are almost equally important, otherwise everyone would just use hill tups.

  21. #21
    sheepwreck
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilO View Post
    I'm intrigued by how his could work in the UK, with such a diverse range of genetic requirements for the various different production systems. A different set of genetics is required on a hard hill farm in Sutherland, to that required in the soft South of England (around my outlaws place in Dorset, you see lots of palm trees in gardens). How does any cross breed analysis allow for these differences to say that sheep 'A' is better than sheep 'B'?
    BTW Jackh, you seem to have missed out the ideal breed for your requirements. One that will give you easy lambing, lively lambs at birth, fast growth rates, easy finishing off low inputs and lamb that will sell well fat or store (not that you see many sold as stores for some strange reason). I'll give you a clue, it starts with 'Ch'.
    How does within breed analysis allow for these geographical and climate differences? There is one Charollais breeder in Sutherland that I know of, and another in Argyll, and I'd be interested to know how their figures compare with breeders in southern England (If they record their flocks).
    I agree that the 'Ch'!! does what you say it does!! Quite a number sold store in Scotland for top money.

  22. #22
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepwreck View Post
    How does within breed analysis allow for these geographical and climate differences? There is one Charollais breeder in Sutherland that I know of, and another in Argyll, and I'd be interested to know how their figures compare with breeders in southern England (If they record their flocks).
    I agree that the 'Ch'!! does what you say it does!! Quite a number sold store in Scotland for top money.

    Do you not find them awful soft? Do you lamb outside? We lost loads last week that were apparently good strong lambs lambing outside in May (contract) when we had 24hrs of rain and the shed was full of them and 20 in the heater box at one point in a 500 ewe flock and only the gimmers had Charolais lambs!!

  23. #23
    Eastender
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepwreck View Post
    How does within breed analysis allow for these geographical and climate differences? There is one Charollais breeder in Sutherland that I know of, and another in Argyll, and I'd be interested to know how their figures compare with breeders in southern England (If they record their flocks).
    I agree that the 'Ch'!! does what you say it does!! Quite a number sold store in Scotland for top money.
    The system relies on good common linkages across flocks and in this specific case, linkage between the flocks in the North and those in the South. To simplify it quite a lot, if an AI tup was used in both flocks (North & South) he would have progeny in both flocks which could be compared. The difference between the average performance of his lambs in the Northern flock compared to the average performance of his lambs in the Southern flock would be largely due to environmental influence (feeding, weather & management) rather than genetics. This environmental difference between the flocks can then be factored in so that you can compare lambs in the North with lambs in the South.
    Linkages don't have to be AI tups, the system can use other common relatives across the flocks to build linkage, but use of AI sires is the best way of doing it hence the development of Sire Reference Schemes many years ago. In many pedigree breeds the common use of AI and shared tups has now has built excellent linkages across flocks.

    Interesting reading re across breed comparisons. I don't think that politics between breed societies would allow this at present. If this is important then why not go the whole hog and go for a "gene pool" system where breeds basically fail to exist as the best sheep for each trait are mated together irrespective of breed - just like the modern hybrid pig?

  24. #24
    jackh
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    i am taking in what everyone has said but we are getting away from the point off which ram would use in the similar system if it was you from your experience a hampshire or texel not a cha because to soft on the marsh

  25. #25
    sheepwreck
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    Do you not find them awful soft? Do you lamb outside? We lost loads last week that were apparently good strong lambs lambing outside in May (contract) when we had 24hrs of rain and the shed was full of them and 20 in the heater box at one point in a 500 ewe flock and only the gimmers had Charolais lambs!!
    Yes we lamb outside, and we also had the rain. Only 2 needed warming. We go for Char tups with plenty of head cover - they are not pretty or the fashionable type favoured by the top breeders - but the lambs hit the ground running.

  26. #26
    sheepwreck
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastender View Post
    The system relies on good common linkages across flocks and in this specific case, linkage between the flocks in the North and those in the South. To simplify it quite a lot, if an AI tup was used in both flocks (North & South) he would have progeny in both flocks which could be compared. The difference between the average performance of his lambs in the Northern flock compared to the average performance of his lambs in the Southern flock would be largely due to environmental influence (feeding, weather & management) rather than genetics. This environmental difference between the flocks can then be factored in so that you can compare lambs in the North with lambs in the South.
    Linkages don't have to be AI tups, the system can use other common relatives across the flocks to build linkage, but use of AI sires is the best way of doing it hence the development of Sire Reference Schemes many years ago. In many pedigree breeds the common use of AI and shared tups has now has built excellent linkages across flocks.

    Interesting reading re across breed comparisons. I don't think that politics between breed societies would allow this at present. If this is important then why not go the whole hog and go for a "gene pool" system where breeds basically fail to exist as the best sheep for each trait are mated together irrespective of breed - just like the modern hybrid pig?
    I am not entirely convinced that environmental factors have much influence on figures because from what I've seen, lambs which have eaten the most hard feed seem to have the best figures. Does high performance in terminal sire breeds depend on hard feed? Or to put it another way, is a ram lamb's response to hard feeding reflected in his figures?

  27. #27
    Inbye
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    Do you not find them awful soft? Do you lamb outside? We lost loads last week that were apparently good strong lambs lambing outside in May (contract) when we had 24hrs of rain and the shed was full of them and 20 in the heater box at one point in a 500 ewe flock and only the gimmers had Charolais lambs!!
    Quote Originally Posted by sheepwreck View Post
    Yes we lamb outside, and we also had the rain. Only 2 needed warming. We go for Char tups with plenty of head cover - they are not pretty or the fashionable type favoured by the top breeders - but the lambs hit the ground running.
    I used a charollais tup alongside texels this year and I would say that the charollais sired lambs are slightly quicker to try and suck and appear more lively, although the texels are lively enough, but the texel lambs are much hardier and don't look so tucked up/cold when we had a really wet and windy spell during lambing. Also, some of the charollais lambs are very bare skinned, they should be cracking lambs to sell but they are definately not as tough when born.

  28. #28
    Sh3pherdess
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Inbye View Post
    I used a charollais tup ....... Also, some of the charollais lambs are very bare skinned, they should be cracking lambs to sell but they are definately not as tough when born.
    Yes that is my experience too. They made the Suffolk lambs look hardy

  29. #29
    Eastender
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepwreck View Post
    I am not entirely convinced that environmental factors have much influence on figures because from what I've seen, lambs which have eaten the most hard feed seem to have the best figures. Does high performance in terminal sire breeds depend on hard feed? Or to put it another way, is a ram lamb's response to hard feeding reflected in his figures?
    By 'environmental' I was talking about the genetic use of the term which basically refers to all other influences other than genetic, so by definition, environmental factors should have no effect on figures.

    Having said that, if a group of ram lambs are offered hard feed then the one with the largest appetite (possibly as a result of it's growth potential) will probably grow the fastest. However, this is not necessarily a problem as the same lamb would most likely have still been the best lamb in the group had it not been offered hard feed, only good grass.

    So in answer to your question, "does high performance in terminal sire breeds depend on hard feed?" The answer is no, as long as you are refering to high performance as high index/high EBV's not actual weight gain.

    With regard to the second part of your question, a ram lambs response to any feeding is reflected in it's figures. If feed (hard or grass) is offered and the lamb doesn't grow, it is not high performance! There is an argument that the usual regime of offering high levels of hard feed to pedigree ram lambs is producing a type of tup which is best suited to producing lambs for an intensive rearing environment rather than one suited to the best utilisation of grass, but that is a different story!

  30. #30
    Old Tip
    Guest

    Re: terminal sire texel vs hampshire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh3pherdess View Post
    Texel is king.

    I tend to disagree, to manyn lambing problems made me give them up on my cheviots, charly much better but go for the wollier type, got a charlyxbeltex this time and he has got smaal wick lambs which are growing ok but not like the poor charlys

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