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Thread: Idiots guide to DD

  1. #1
    agricontract
    Guest

    Idiots guide to DD

    Following on from another thread let's have a idiots guide to DD with some must do s and donts I'll will start And let the seasoned pros follow on !

    Don't plough!

    Do read This thread!

  2. #2
    Rob Holmes
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Get in the right frame of mind, DDing won't work unless your 100% committed to it.

    ...and be patient :lolk:

  3. #3
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    fix any probs before you start and don't short cut the system

  4. #4
    lexion610
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    The soil will take a few years to adjust before your yields bounce back to pre-DD levels, so be patient and have faith in the system

  5. #5
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    dont confuse compaction with nutrient mineralisation. dd crop growth can be slower for both reasons.

  6. #6
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Understand the problems that high levels of unevenly spread chaff and straw can cause...Starting again I might just bale the straw for a couple of years and apply compost to give the soil biology a kick start...An extra bit of autumn N might be useful in years one to three..
    Slugs..... Can be a real problem until the soil becomes "friable" and you get good seed-to-soil contact..with time the preditors do build up but they need a helping hand in the early days!

  7. #7
    Tim Fr
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Plenty of cover crops.

  8. #8
    strip-till-phil
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Never have a numpty on the drill

  9. #9
    Gothmog
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    really guys..
    none of those comments tell us none DD people anything

    Why does yield drop for a while?
    Do you use less fert so less yield at 1st?
    If so why cut the fert?

    Fix problems before you start??
    What sort of problems?

    Why cover crops?
    Claydons doing WW WW OSR rotation.
    So why do some say use a cover crop?

    Is it not ok to :

    Round-up stubble.
    Drill into stubble.
    Then put spray/fert on as usual through the year?

  10. #10
    strip-till-phil
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Why does yield drop for a while? Ours didn't drop
    Do you use less fert so less yield at 1st? No
    If so why cut the fert?

    Fix problems before you start??
    What sort of problems? None

    Why cover crops? No cover crops here
    Claydons doing WW WW OSR rotation.
    So why do some say use a cover crop? Don't know

    Is it not ok to :

    Round-up stubble.
    Drill into stubble.
    Then put spray/fert on as usual through the year? This is exactly what I do except no Atlantis last 2 years

  11. #11
    strip-till-phil
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Claydon's don't grow beans even though the have the best bean drill in the UK

  12. #12
    Gothmog
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by no-till-phil View Post
    Why does yield drop for a while? Ours didn't drop
    Do you use less fert so less yield at 1st? No
    If so why cut the fert?

    Fix problems before you start??
    What sort of problems? None

    Why cover crops? No cover crops here
    Claydons doing WW WW OSR rotation.
    So why do some say use a cover crop? Don't know

    Is it not ok to :

    Round-up stubble.
    Drill into stubble.
    Then put spray/fert on as usual through the year? This is exactly what I do except no Atlantis last 2 years
    Well Phil your answers fall in line with my way of thinking on how it woudl work so why are others raising these points???

    MY land has been organic for 11 years, never had any straw removed in all that time and been subsoiled every 3rd year roughly and so we no pans and so dont tend to get standing water.
    Slugs not a problem as dont get them with organic.

    From your answers phil, I think going to DD from organic will work well as its sort of set up ready as trhe soil is healthy.

    Still need to pop and see your crops. If keeps fine shoudl finally be caught up with work!

  13. #13
    strip-till-phil
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Only difference I can see apart from the savings DD brings is that the agronomist has to work a bit harder for his money due to earlier drilled crops i.e. N/PGR timings e.t.c.

  14. #14
    charlie brown
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Well I always said I wouldnt give advice, but for what its worth here are my thoughts (as someone no tilling about 650 acres, some of it in its third year);

    The very first thing to consider is your soil type and its uniformity across the farm., and then consider its suitability for dd. We are lucky enough to have a uniform Chalky Boulder clay, Hanslope series. This will "self structure" if treated correctly.

    Secondly I would look at the blackgrass situation on the farm, starting dd with anything other than a very low level will compromise you from the start.

    And thirdly you have to want it to work, set your stall out from before harvest and avoid the temptation to recreationaly cultivate, 'cos you will in all probability have all that lovely shiny expensive cultivation kit sitting there looking at you!

    cb

  15. #15
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by charlie brown View Post
    Well I always said I wouldnt give advice, but for what its worth here are my thoughts (as someone no tilling about 650 acres, some of it in its third year);

    The very first thing to consider is your soil type and its uniformity across the farm., and then consider its suitability for dd. We are lucky enough to have a uniform Chalky Boulder clay, Hanslope series. This will "self structure" if treated correctly.

    Secondly I would look at the blackgrass situation on the farm, starting dd with anything other than a very low level will compromise you from the start.

    And thirdly you have to want it to work, set your stall out from before harvest and avoid the temptation to recreationaly cultivate, 'cos you will in all probability have all that lovely shiny expensive cultivation kit sitting there looking at you!

    cb
    We have the same soil type as you but do have a lot of black grass in certain areas due to various failures on our part (not getting spray on, wrong timing etc). Do you see any sense in the argument that low disturbance (or even higher disturbance like a Claydon as I remember reading some users claiming) actually helps to reduce black grass? Given what you say I'm guessing you don't but I'd be interested to hear why. I see the obvious argument that you're not able to get a kill before drilling unlike a plough based system. How much of a help is a rake in allowing a kill before drilling?

  16. #16
    Sumo
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    one of the most important aspects,

    If you emply staff, they need to be 'on-board'

    You need their co-operation (especially the drill driver)

    some dont take kindly to the reduced overtime :cry:

  17. #17
    York
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    very good summary, and still valuable:
    http://www.rolf-derpsch.com/steps.pdf

    Investing into metal = buying a drill - is step 7. Majority of failure occur because steps 1 to 6 are not looked at.
    York-Th.
    who is feeling sad over every failure reported.

  18. #18
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by York View Post
    very good summary, and still valuable:
    http://www.rolf-derpsch.com/steps.pdf

    Investing into metal = buying a drill - is step 7. Majority of failure occur because steps 1 to 6 are not looked at.
    York-Th.
    who is feeling sad over every failure reported.
    Thanks very much for posting this - an excellent read. I take on board your point about needing to adopt a holistic view rather than thinking of weed control just in terms of the type of metal used.

  19. #19
    Robert
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Rolf Derpsch list step 4 as "Level the Soil Surface"

    I think we havn't paid enough attention to this in this our first year and have too many 'scars' from compromised seeeding depth (Claydon Strip Till). Derpsh seems to favour using a disc cultivator to remedy this problem, it would be helpful to know what machines others have used to good effect - has anyone used a Vaderstad Carrier or a Horsch Terrano for example - both machines which i believe can be operated very shallow?

    Thanks

  20. #20
    pylon dodger
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Rolf Derpsch list step 4 as "Level the Soil Surface"

    I think we havn't paid enough attention to this in this our first year and have too many 'scars' from compromised seeeding depth (Claydon Strip Till). Derpsh seems to favour using a disc cultivator to remedy this problem, it would be helpful to know what machines others have used to good effect - has anyone used a Vaderstad Carrier or a Horsch Terrano for example - both machines which i believe can be operated very shallow?

    Thanks
    We have used a carrier in our system to help level the fields out a bit. Mainly in osr stubble that was put in with the subsoiler. As well as create a chit it also creates a bit if tilth to help cover the seed and spreads straw out a bit.

    We run a 5m machine with a straw rake on the frount and also use it to roll the crops in with the discs just touching the soil or lifted out but the harrow still working. A very versitile machine.

    used between 1-1.25/acre in fuel last year on the back of a 150hp tractor

    My tip would be don't be afraid to do a bit of light cultivation in frount or after of the drill if you think it needs it.

    You will know your land better than anyone

    I view our drill as a drill that can drill in one pass if needed or conditions suit

  21. #21
    Robert
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Thanks, thats helpful to know your approach; Needless to say we sold our Carrier a few years back!

  22. #22
    essexpete
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumo View Post
    one of the most important aspects,

    If you emply staff, they need to be 'on-board'

    You need their co-operation (especially the drill driver)

    some dont take kindly to the reduced overtime :cry:
    Would that include the agronomist?

  23. #23
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    really guys..
    none of those comments tell us none DD people anything

    Why does yield drop for a while?
    In my experience, those that see a yield drop as they experiment with or enter the dd/no-till faith, do so because they are very good conventional till farmers. They know what they are doing and are very good at managing their time a resources. Those that I know of that experience no yield drag, (though exceptions do exist) are usually really bad conventional tillage farmers. We've all seen the type. They plow too wet, cultivate too dry and use half rate chems on low gallonage over their clods, then complain about the weeds, etc.
    Do you use less fert so less yield at 1st?
    If so why cut the fert?

    Fix problems before you start??
    What sort of problems?
    Here it's usually residue management and pest control problems that need addressed before you begin. Often a new comer can make the wrong drill type choice for the residue type and situation. I know I sure did, and still do once in a while as I learn what each type of drill can do in residue of various types. Here's a link to a picture thread I put up a couple years ago as I learned a painfully expensive lesson about hair pinning or residue tucking.
    Expensive lesson.

    I'm finally getting a few fall planting no-till projects to succeed, but I have had the best luck as a beginner at spring plantings as the pests are easier to control. IMO. So when I talk to people about the dd/no-till subject and they ask my opinion, I tell them of my mistakes and suggest they try a spring planting if they are to go into it completely blind at the last minute and hire or renting whatever drill is available locally.

    Why cover crops?
    Claydons doing WW WW OSR rotation.
    So why do some say use a cover crop?

    Is it not ok to :

    Round-up stubble.
    I round up stubble all the time now. But I learned that I need high gallonage and nozzles pointing both forward and rearward to get around the stubble shadows.
    Drill into stubble.
    Here's a video of my recent no-till into stubble success. I have day 21 footage to upload soon.
    No-till tillage radish 2012.
    I am no-till planting soybeans on an angle and then tall fescue grass seed in the direction I want my ctf lanes, right now. I will have some video of it shortly. It is going directly into heavy wheat stubble that had no preparation what so ever.
    Then put spray/fert on as usual through the year?
    IMO.

  24. #24
    ranterrob
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Have gone from plough, & ph/drill which worked well to trying some min till and d/d last year.
    some rape was done with shakerator/vaddy and some with just a simtech that I hired, agronomist said simtech was crap when it came up( only drilled at about 3.5 kg/ha instead of intended 4.5, was worried about using too much ) . All had a bit of N in mid Sept. Even he now says that the simtech is the best looking bit, stalks like trees, hope it yields the best as so easy and cheap to drill.
    Ist wheat was done by claydon sr after linseed has looked great all year 2nd wheat by Vaddy and a really crap bit of land by the simtech, the straw was all baled apart from the simtech bit as I wanted to increase the OM as I have only had this bit for four years and it has had no muck for years before I took it over. The vaddy drilled bits do look better but it is much better ground,

    Question Should I use a small amount of N on the wheat in the autumn to help it get going especially where the straw is chopped, as I cant put it down the spout is it better to spread it before drilling to allow the drill to work it in a bit and to be available straight away

  25. #25
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Question Should I use a small amount of N on the wheat in the autumn to help it get going especially where the straw is chopped, as I cant put it down the spout is it better to spread it before drilling to allow the drill to work it in a bit and to be available straight away[/QUOTE]

    We had "well known soil specialist" around last week and he thinks we ought to apply some N to chopped straw asap after harvest (broadcast) especially if we are drilling a second wheat. He did even suggest that it might be beneficial after rape...

  26. #26
    ranterrob
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Hi Jim would that " well known soil specialist " be ST by any chance, really enjoyed talking to him at the no-till day in Devon last year, is a real enthusiast and knows his stuff, is he exspensive to have down for a day to pick his brains ?

    Rob

  27. #27
    The ruminant
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    We had "well known soil specialist" around last week and he thinks we ought to apply some N to chopped straw asap after harvest (broadcast) especially if we are drilling a second wheat. He did even suggest that it might be beneficial after rape...
    It makes sense, from a C:N ratio point of view, especially liquid N sprayed onto the straw

  28. #28
    yellow belly
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    Question Should I use a small amount of N on the wheat in the autumn to help it get going especially where the straw is chopped, as I cant put it down the spout is it better to spread it before drilling to allow the drill to work it in a bit and to be available straight away
    We had "well known soil specialist" around last week and he thinks we ought to apply some N to chopped straw asap after harvest (broadcast) especially if we are drilling a second wheat. He did even suggest that it might be beneficial after rape...[/QUOTE]

    is it legal to put n on in the autumn (sept to nov) for a cereal crop
    august may be allowed

    dap or map would are a good option
    in the 1970s early 1980s autumn n was used for second wheats as were aplication in january

    my second wheat look good this year due to all the extra n that would normally have been lost

    when i studied straw incorporation in the 1980s all the research showed that autumn n was benificial for straw breakdown Peter Hepworth was a big believer in autumn n /pig muck for incorporation of straw and also encouraging the worms

  29. #29
    pig fighter
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    I'm surprised you guys are hiring a "well known soil specialist" to tell you this. Autumn N in a DD cereal crop has been one of the few derrogations in NVZ (since I think 2004 in Scotland), that does not even need an agronomists justification. I thought all the DDrs would know of the need for N in this situation.

  30. #30
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: Idiots guide to DD

    Quote Originally Posted by pig fighter View Post
    I'm surprised you guys are hiring a "well known soil specialist" to tell you this. Autumn N in a DD cereal crop has been one of the few derrogations in NVZ (since I think 2004 in Scotland), that does not even need an agronomists justification. I thought all the DDrs would know of the need for N in this situation.
    I'm not entirely convinced how necessary it is. It may be cosmetic and possibly won't contribute to yield but I guess depends if you have a crop that may need a boot up the arse - not all do.

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