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Thread: New Sprayer Choice

  1. #151
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by honest john View Post
    I am guessing same as everyone else.
    Agrifac are small scale. They have the best Chassis design out there. They are starting to make inroads into markets.
    Exel are buying a design and market share.
    The french will still get a french build but with a better chassis. Much as Amazone have.
    It seems cheep at 3 million but we dont know what the debts are.
    Will farmers get a cheaper sprayer ? No. Will more farmers get a better sprayer lets hope so.
    Cheers.
    John.
    spot on

    and the last people to know bugger all about whats gong on way over their heads will be anyone who works for them ! (as proved in previous posts :roll eyes

  2. #152
    Highfield
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    I think Agrifac don't even own the chassi. You can buy it like Amazon do. I think that's right. So why would excel buy the agrifac name when they can buy the chassi themselves? They must have wanted the agrifac sugar beet harvesters and the sprayers came on the side.

  3. #153
    Niels
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by agrifac View Post
    The agrifac will remain its own identity as it has its own unique features that none of the others have, I would very much doubt brand swapping will take place as you know it doesnt work CNH tried it and never worked. think there was a lesson learnt there for all manufactures that you cant build a machine and basically paint it in any colour you want just because it saves money, it ruins names and reputations.
    Indeed it can ruin your name and reputation but it is exactly what Exel do now with their existing brands. But I agree with you that they probably won't redecall the Agrifac machines. They are simply to big and expensive to fit anyone's farm. What would a small French or British cereal farm have to do with one if you can get a much cheaper SP?

    Highlander: The chassis is 100% Agrifac's own. Stabilo Plus it's named and it is their biggest strong point.

    The press releases stated that Exel bought Agrifac because of their strong position in Eastern Europe/Russia. Especially beet harvesters are popular over there. Buying a market is what most large manufacturers do nowadays.

  4. #154
    agrifac
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Niels View Post
    Indeed it can ruin your name and reputation but it is exactly what Exel do now with their existing brands. But I agree with you that they probably won't redecall the Agrifac machines. They are simply to big and expensive to fit anyone's farm. What would a small French or British cereal farm have to do with one if you can get a much cheaper SP?

    Highlander: The chassis is 100% Agrifac's own. Stabilo Plus it's named and it is their biggest strong point.

    The press releases stated that Exel bought Agrifac because of their strong position in Eastern Europe/Russia. Especially beet harvesters are popular over there. Buying a market is what most large manufacturers do nowadays.
    Agrifac will remain it's own identity as it's a premium sprayer, there's no intention of spraying them in differnt colours etc, exel will help promote the sprayer in unknown territory and invest in the sprayer in the r&d side of things.
    We are starting to get a lot of positive interest and sales from the smaller farmer as they want a spray they can rely and don't have to worry about down time. When you weigh up the down time and problems with other manufactures you would gain the extra cost back over the years so actuall cost of ownership is less.
    The chassis is 100% agrifac designed and owned.

  5. #155
    Niels
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by agrifac View Post
    Agrifac will remain it's own identity as it's a premium sprayer, there's no intention of spraying them in differnt colours etc, exel will help promote the sprayer in unknown territory and invest in the sprayer in the r&d side of things.
    We are starting to get a lot of positive interest and sales from the smaller farmer as they want a spray they can rely and don't have to worry about down time. When you weigh up the down time and problems with other manufactures you would gain the extra cost back over the years so actuall cost of ownership is less.
    The chassis is 100% agrifac designed and owned.
    I live close to an Agrifac dealership and find as many sprayers in their workshop as in any other that sell a different make. But it is good that you stand behind your make. Agrifac is a premium brand and have one of the very best technology advanced sprayers available but like Lee says I can't see a small/medium sized arable farmer buy one unless they have some special high value crops. We're not all madd Dutch farmers that get a new Condor with 250 acres under their belt!

  6. #156
    honest john
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Ben,

    I have to disagree with your last few lines. For example a 1000ac combinable crop farm will run through with the sprayer 6-7 times so 6000-7000ac per year. If using liquid fert that will add another 2000ac so let's say 8500ac/yr.

    How can a 170,000 sprayer work on that acreage? And you mentioned 'smaller farmer' but 1000ac is not exactly small but if it can't be justified on that acreage than how can it work on areas less than that?

    Contracting rates for spraying are around 3.50/acre all in so to do the job in house and make it not viable for a contractor your looking at halving that cost so 1.75/acre all in.

    So 8500 ac/yr @ 1.75/ac is a total annual cost of 14,875 which would have to include the depreciation, interest on loan, maintenance and fuel.

    If you remove the fuel from that 14,785 which would be about 1l/ac @ 70ppl so about 6,000 that leaves you around 8,800 to fund the sprayer and maintenance of it.

    So if you can do that where do I sign please?

    Honest question?
    Lee, if one was to think along those lines one would get a contractor to do all the jobs, or better still just do a stubble to stubble.
    What about the advantages of getting the job done on time. Good resale and the like.
    If you cant get the spray on in time it could cost a lot more than a Condor or Bateman.
    I remember a year when i got a blight spray on one day,Luck, it was the the last spray day for two weeks by which time every one else had blight, then you are talking every three days
    with two or three products in the tank untill the hot dry weather returns.
    I just dont think you can cost it in the way you have.
    If a contractor is 3.50 i would pay more to be on top of the job, not less.
    Cheers.

  7. #157
    agrifac
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Ben,

    I have to disagree with your last few lines. For example a 1000ac combinable crop farm will run through with the sprayer 6-7 times so 6000-7000ac per year. If using liquid fert that will add another 2000ac so let's say 8500ac/yr.

    How can a 170,000 sprayer work on that acreage? And you mentioned 'smaller farmer' but 1000ac is not exactly small but if it can't be justified on that acreage than how can it work on areas less than that?

    Contracting rates for spraying are around 3.50/acre all in so to do the job in house and make it not viable for a contractor your looking at halving that cost so 1.75/acre all in.

    So 8500 ac/yr @ 1.75/ac is a total annual cost of 14,875 which would have to include the depreciation, interest on loan, maintenance and fuel.

    If you remove the fuel from that 14,785 which would be about 1l/ac @ 70ppl so about 6,000 that leaves you around 8,800 to fund the sprayer and maintenance of it.

    So if you can do that where do I sign please?

    Honest question?
    So what your saying Lee is that you don't buy anything because it all costs to much to own, How much does it cost to run your tractors and combine I wouldn't of thought your far out on them either.

  8. #158
    Ian01
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    So your willing to pay more to do all your work in house than what a contractor would cost?

    If you are then your mad

    Timeliness can be achieved by choosing the right contractor.

    My view is if somebody can do a job for the same money or less than me, then they might as well do it.
    There are many jobs I would consider contracting out if the figures stacked up, but spraying is not one of them. You cannot beat having total control and independence. How can you guarantee that if you only get on spraying day within say a two week period that a contractor would be with you?
    Given this season's disease levels, not helped by stretched timings earlier in the season due to catchy weather, I would say that it would not take much of a yeild responce from increased timeliness to make a few pence / acre saved on application look stupid.
    There is more to a balance sheet than a cost collum!

  9. #159
    Proper Job
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian01 View Post
    There are many jobs I would consider contracting out if the figures stacked up, but spraying is not one of them. You cannot beat having total control and independence. How can you guarantee that if you only get on spraying day within say a two week period that a contractor would be with you?
    Given this season's disease levels, not helped by stretched timings earlier in the season due to catchy weather, I would say that it would not take much of a yeild responce from increased timeliness to make a few pence / acre saved on application look stupid.
    There is more to a balance sheet than a cost collum!
    Completely agree having someone do contract spraying unless on a seriously small acreage makes no sense on a arable farm, maybe be back up for veg etc if in the $hite, but not for combinables. At the end of the day how much does a mounted 24m on the back of an old tractor cost, at the end of the day all that is needed is a pump and some new nozzles and application will be the same, if a small acreage speed is not important, if a large acreage then a swanky self propelled will be required to cover the ground, both will do the same job relatively. Timeliness is next to godliness!

  10. #160
    Proper Job
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Yes but an old mounted sprayer isn't going to cost what a contractor charges is it!

    What Ben originally said was that more and more smaller farmers are buying big agrifacs and I just can't see it because again referring back to a 1000ac unit spraying around 8500ac/yr. If they bought a 170k sprayer I reckon there I house cost would be close to 50,000/yr.

    You could get 2 contractors to ensure timeliness for around 15k each so a total bill of 30k.

    If you can't make a significant saving over the contractor by doing it yourself then what's the point? Just get multiple contractors!

    Nobody would increase there costs surely and instead multiple contractors are the best route.
    Yes so we are in agreement buy a sprayer that suits your budget, as its one machine you can and forget the contractor and drive on, and why anyone would buy an Agrifac for 170k over say a Bateman RB35 36m with VG booms GPS etc for 140k is beyond me, and i know which one will keep going in a field of spuds at the mo plus be worth more in 5yrs time!

  11. #161
    honest john
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Yes but an old mounted sprayer isn't going to cost what a contractor charges is it!

    What Ben originally said was that more and more smaller farmers are buying big agrifacs and I just can't see it because again referring back to a 1000ac unit spraying around 8500ac/yr. If they bought a 170k sprayer I reckon there I house cost would be close to 50,000/yr.

    You could get 2 contractors to ensure timeliness for around 15k each so a total bill of 30k.

    If you can't make a significant saving over the contractor by doing it yourself then what's the point? Just get multiple contractors!

    Nobody would increase there costs surely and instead multiple contractors are the best route.
    Just think back to the first half of april and how behind the contractors where getting with some of the T1 sprays.
    Now there are some very good contractors about, but i for one wouldnt want the stress of waiting for a contractor to find a day or two a week. Its hard enough to keep up dodgeing the rain as it is.
    I am mad enough and happy to pay more to hope to be on top of the job. Same goes for harvesting.
    We have two much money in crop at stake to worry about a few bob on a sprayer.
    Thats the way some off us think, to put the other side of the coin.
    I respect you viewpoint though.
    Cheers.

  12. #162
    Proper Job
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    I think we were both saying that we agree that an Agrifac is too much money for a smaller farm, we were disagreeing that using a contractor is more cost effective as there is always a sprayer that can be bought for a specific budget whether 2nd hand mounted right up to a 200k plus machine to suit a specific acreage and have improved timeliness. How many contractors were able to spray on time this last season in ideal conditions. And when you get a difficult spray season, by nature of more challenging weather you get more disease as a result of both higher pressure and poor timeliness. Whether spraying costs 2.50 or 5 per acre it is insignificant. Will only be a big differance over a larger acreage but then a sprayer is more easily justifiable.

  13. #163
    agrifac
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    confused because both you Honest John and Proper Job are agreeing with me so not sure what the conversation is about.

    Ben originally said that more and more smaller farmers are turning to Agrifac and my point is I don't think a 1000ac farm can justify one.

    As yet I have not been contradicted because having been looking at sprayers I would agree the Agrifac is the best on the market but I would like to know how they are justifying one that's all as I'm looking at sprayers at the moment. It can only be by some very high residual values better than Bateman.

    If the purchase price is 170k and after fuel the total cost is around 8500/yr which is where it would need to be for a 1000ac farm to look then after 5 years that sprayer would have to still be worth about 130k including servicing.

    Would anybody on here part with 130k for a 5 yr old sprayer? I've been looking at some around 60k.

    I am genuinely interested because I'd love an Agrifac.
    lee,

    I dont know how a farm justifys the cost I sell sprayers not run farms,everyone is different to how they run a farm and finances. we do have a very high resdiual value on the sprayer as it is a high price to start with and it also gives confidence that a customer isnt going to loose loads of money.

    All I can say is that if there that expensive why did I have a conversation with a customer this morning who has just bought one and is now looking to buy another one because because due to the weather he is so far behind and he would rather buy another sprayer than loose his potatoes to blight.

  14. #164
    Niels
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    We had a chat with Mr. Blanchard, the managing director of Exel Industries. For anyone that is curious. They had to buy Agrifac for ten million euros. 7 million debt plus three. Their main goal is to gain sales in Eastern Europe and Northern Europe and as said before the Agrifac will keep it's own identity for now.

    Very nice guy and we'll be having a proper interview next. Shame for you it is all in Dutch

  15. #165
    honest john
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    confused because both you Honest John and Proper Job are agreeing with me so not sure what the conversation is about.

    Ben originally said that more and more smaller farmers are turning to Agrifac and my point is I don't think a 1000ac farm can justify one.

    As yet I have not been contradicted because having been looking at sprayers I would agree the Agrifac is the best on the market but I would like to know how they are justifying one that's all as I'm looking at sprayers at the moment. It can only be by some very high residual values better than Bateman.

    If the purchase price is 170k and after fuel the total cost is around 8500/yr which is where it would need to be for a 1000ac farm to look then after 5 years that sprayer would have to still be worth about 130k including servicing.

    Would anybody on here part with 130k for a 5 yr old sprayer? I've been looking at some around 60k.

    I am genuinely interested because I'd love an Agrifac.
    One of my mates is looking considering one. He was offered a used for 155 K i cant remember the hrs but i think it was in the area of 2,000.
    One would guess 2 years. dont hold me to these nrs as it was a little while ago.
    The Agrifac / Chalanger / JD types have a much more expensive wheel drive motor units.
    They cost about ??? machine more. Need bigger pump etc.
    I dont think Bateman offer that yet. A lot of the price difference is in the wheel drives.
    Some users have had a nr of wheel motors on other makes and are looking at other options in the market.

    I am going though the same thoughts at the momment on a SP potato harvestor.
    5 year old half worn out less money tied up more repairs poss more hassle.
    Or new with some finance latest toys not many repairs for 3 years. But a lot more interest.
    They will all SP that is cost about 50 acre Dep. The older one an unknown cost of repairs down time.
    Or new one at known interest charges.
    With the older one in 3/5 years will be looking to update at a time when other kit needs updateing wheres the new should do 10 years. Its never easy.
    Suns out. Sprayer calling. By.

  16. #166
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    If I could only own one item of farm machinery it would be my sprayer / fert application kit

    frankly I don't care if it costs me 10/ac to run and I could get a contractor to do it for 1

    I have well over a million of crops sitting out in a field right now and if I was a large veg or potato grower you could probably double that ! If you think I would risk that just to save a or two using a contractor then your nuts !

  17. #167
    doehill
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    In my opinion there two machine you must have total control of one is the sprayer and the other is the combine as they are both time and weather critical all other jobs have a wider window to operate in. There can be a lot of money lost just waiting.

  18. #168
    Col
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    If I could only own one item of farm machinery it would be my sprayer / fert application kit

    frankly I don't care if it costs me 10/ac to run and I could get a contractor to do it for 1

    I have well over a million of crops sitting out in a field right now and if I was a large veg or potato grower you could probably double that ! If you think I would risk that just to save a or two using a contractor then your nuts !
    +1, our sprayer burnt out and waiting for contractors to come is a nightmare

  19. #169
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Col View Post
    +1, our sprayer burnt out and waiting for contractors to come is a nightmare
    been there years ago Col after a RTA wrote ours off - we were growing spuds at the time as well and I got a taste of what relying on a contractor was like

    You have my greatest sympathy !

  20. #170
    Chae
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Perhaps contractors look after there regular customers better than those that just use them in an emergency! I know I do. I m sure if a very important farmer like you clive went to them at start of season with thousands of ha s to spray they would be there in a flash, and provide a good service.

  21. #171
    frescherfrosch
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Perhaps contractors look after there regular customers better than those that just use them in an emergency! I know I do. I m sure if a very important farmer like you clive went to them at start of season with thousands of ha s to spray they would be there in a flash, and provide a good service.
    Couldn't agree more. Always look after your regulars first.

  22. #172
    Nametab
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    But then again Col, if you had stuck with a Sands, they would have no doubt have loaned you a machine (albeit an old one) until they could build you a new one! - that would be our policy anyway.
    Jon @ Bateman's

  23. #173
    NQIT
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nametab View Post
    But then again Col, if you had stuck with a Sands, they would have no doubt have loaned you a machine (albeit an old one) until they could build you a new one! - that would be our policy anyway.
    Jon @ Bateman's
    +1. Will the new machine manufacturer help you out with a loan machine? Or buy an old machine to keep you going?

    Spraying Contractors? Yeah, totally unreliable. When you get into difficulties, you call them and they have other regular customers they have prioritised!

  24. #174
    jonnieboy
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    If a farmer cant make a sprayer add up over a 1000 acre farm then if you get a contractor in he isnt just going to buy a new sprayer to look after you

    even if he only covers 2000 ac over 30 mile radius then surely an older self propelled machine would cover the 1000 ac a lot more easier than waiting for the contractor

    I know some folk who have to put a lot more stuff through the sprayer at a time as the contractor is always last to them

  25. #175
    Col
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nametab View Post
    But then again Col, if you had stuck with a Sands, they would have no doubt have loaned you a machine (albeit an old one) until they could build you a new one! - that would be our policy anyway.
    Jon @ Bateman's
    Getting a loaner is not a problem, it's getting the right size, no 30m booms about seemingly. Plenty of 36m but they all want to sell them not hire, but Chafer are sorting me out now, I'm sure if Challenger had wanted they could have bought a used one and sent it up:lolk:. Contractor in at moment, with bowser support from our guy he is keeping on top of it.
    Just spuds to spray anyway and with the way conditions are there is no way we could put new tramlines in to suit a 24m. Going to go to 36m next time, there's more of them about now and they seem to be ok in spud fields, just need to plant nice big headlands
    Could always buy a shiny JD and have it in 3 weeks, mega though.

  26. #176
    Col
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    There's obviously a lot of people been let down by contractors for spraying as the negativity towards using them is quite strong. Cant say I have ever been let down by one going elsewhere first. I just think that if your own sprayer is going to cost the same or more than the going contractor rate then there is no point doing it yourself.

    You can protect yourself from poor timeliness by splitting your land up into chunks and dishing smaller areas out to different contractors. I see no problem using 3 spraying contractors on 1000 acres. If one ever got behind then one of the other two would be able to help. And even if all your 1000ac was wheat the entire area could be sprayed in 1 day which in reality is better timing than plodding over the land with a 2000l sprayer.

    So for me to invest in a sprayer myself is down to other factors as timeliness to me is not an issue. Like if I had somebody employed elsewhere but there was the potential to put them on a sprayer to help justify their salary or as already mentioned if I could see a saving over a contractor charge then its worth doing.
    This is one of the areas where there is a definite difference between cost and value

  27. #177
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    There's obviously a lot of people been let down by contractors for spraying as the negativity towards using them is quite strong. Cant say I have ever been let down by one going elsewhere first. I just think that if your own sprayer is going to cost the same or more than the going contractor rate then there is no point doing it yourself.

    You can protect yourself from poor timeliness by splitting your land up into chunks and dishing smaller areas out to different contractors. I see no problem using 3 spraying contractors on 1000 acres. If one ever got behind then one of the other two would be able to help. And even if all your 1000ac was wheat the entire area could be sprayed in 1 day which in reality is better timing than plodding over the land with a 2000l sprayer.

    So for me to invest in a sprayer myself is down to other factors as timeliness to me is not an issue. Like if I had somebody employed elsewhere but there was the potential to put them on a sprayer to help justify their salary or as already mentioned if I could see a saving over a contractor charge then its worth doing.
    you have had a good contractor so far that always treated your crop as part of his own

    not sure that a 2/ac contractor can afford to be quite so selfless

  28. #178
    Nametab
    Guest

    Re: New Sprayer Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Col View Post
    Getting a loaner is not a problem, it's getting the right size, no 30m booms about seemingly. Plenty of 36m but they all want to sell them not hire, but Chafer are sorting me out now, I'm sure if Challenger had wanted they could have bought a used one and sent it up:lolk:. Contractor in at moment, with bowser support from our guy he is keeping on top of it.
    Just spuds to spray anyway and with the way conditions are there is no way we could put new tramlines in to suit a 24m. Going to go to 36m next time, there's more of them about now and they seem to be ok in spud fields, just need to plant nice big headlands
    Could always buy a shiny JD and have it in 3 weeks, mega though.
    At least you are sorted! - we keep a 36m machine to one side which can be 28/30/32m for such occasions, coz s**t can happen. Know Jim P has spoken to you, if can be of help - do shout.
    Jon

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