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Thread: Sugar beet

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    Sugar beet

    On BBB look north the other night they featured a transport company in Hull complaining about Brexit and the effect it will have on their import business. The interview was in their warehouse which contained thousands of tonnes of pallets of sugar.
    I found it ironic that that it was sugar. Eorope closed. Down York sugar beet factory, just so we could import from them?
    Just a couple of miles up the road from them is Cranswick mill which imports 42 per cent of its meat from Europe.
    Was there ever a better justification for Brexit and an end to Europes bully boy trading tactics?
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    On BBB look north the other night they featured a transport company in Hull complaining about Brexit and the effect it will have on their import business. The interview was in their warehouse which contained thousands of tonnes of pallets of sugar.
    I found it ironic that that it was sugar. Eorope closed. Down York sugar beet factory, just so we could import from them?
    Just a couple of miles up the road from them is Cranswick mill which imports 42 per cent of its meat from Europe.
    Was there ever a better justification for Brexit and an end to Europes bully boy trading tactics?
    jack caley
    Jack, you must be getting old, It was not Europe that closed York, it was British Sugar as they were expanding their more efficient factories at Wissington, Bury, etc.
    In fact it was our own government, more than any other in Europe, which campaigned to reform the sugar regime at the cost to European producers so we should import more from overseas. If it had not been for Europe their is a very good chance we should have seen the demise of UK sugar production entirely.
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Jack, you must be getting old, It was not Europe that closed York, it was British Sugar as they were expanding their more efficient factories at Wissington, Bury, etc.
    In fact it was our own government, more than any other in Europe, which campaigned to reform the sugar regime at the cost to European producers so we should import more from overseas. If it had not been for Europe their is a very good chance we should have seen the demise of UK sugar production entirely.
    Sorry, if I got it wrong I apologise.
    I suppose maybe I am obsessed with how Europe has dominated our trade. Those imports in to Hull do illustrate just how much the the Europeans are dependent on our trade though. We should be standing up to them more. It is said that Brexit will ruin our country. However, if we started producing more of our own sugar and pigs, surely our economy and balance of trade would improve.
    A friend tells me there are four tanker loads of milk a day coming in to a yoghurt factory near here from France. We would have done better to protect our own dairy farmers two years ago, surely.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Sorry, if I got it wrong I apologise.
    I suppose maybe I am obsessed with how Europe has dominated our trade. Those imports in to Hull do illustrate just how much the the Europeans are dependent on our trade though. We should be standing up to them more. It is said that Brexit will ruin our country. However, if we started producing more of our own sugar and pigs, surely our economy and balance of trade would improve.
    A friend tells me there are four tanker loads of milk a day coming in to a yoghurt factory near here from France. We would have done better to protect our own dairy farmers two years ago, surely.
    jack caley
    I cannot see that any British government of either colour will do anything for British farming. The conservatives are fixated on free trade and that will mean cheap cane sugar from Brazil, never mind the brutal conditions that thew growers are treated to out there. I am certain also any Breexit deal will see the UK continue to take as much cheaply produced pork from Eastern Europe that we can stomach.
    And God forbid what Mr Corbyn and his mate McDonald will do to UK agriculture, it certainly won't be a pretty sight!
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I cannot see that any British government of either colour will do anything for British farming. The conservatives are fixated on free trade and that will mean cheap cane sugar from Brazil, never mind the brutal conditions that thew growers are treated to out there. I am certain also any Breexit deal will see the UK continue to take as much cheaply produced pork from Eastern Europe that we can stomach.
    And God forbid what Mr Corbyn and his mate McDonald will do to UK agriculture, it certainly won't be a pretty sight!
    I can see that both you and I are disillusioned old gits!
    I fully agree with you as to governments of any colour. However, I have always fared better under Labour in the past.As to the present Labour Trotskeyites, they are never going to help farmers now, as even the smallest of farmers are now major capitalists with the meteoric rise in land price not value. Labour would tax this wealth, even though it is worthless to us unless we sell up.
    What all governments cannot see is the bigger picture. The conservative government under Walker could see the value of producing our own food, they did have a drive to do so until about 1985ish, when a policy of self sufficiency was dropped, especially in favour of Europe, who greeted that with alacrity.
    The policy of non product related subsidy fell right in to the hands of those full of envy of large landowners, a huge mistake encouraged I am afraid, even supported by our own NFU who refused to cap payments.
    I am going to a meeting at Bishop Burton on Friday , organised by the Yorkshire Agricultural Adventurers, the theme is Farming after Brexit. It is addressed by the great and the good of the industry, including an MP, NFU expert, Caroline Drummond, etc etc
    I will try and pass on the undoubted wisdom I derive afterwards.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I can see that both you and I are disillusioned old gits!
    I fully agree with you as to governments of any colour. However, I have always fared better under Labour in the past.As to the present Labour Trotskeyites, they are never going to help farmers now, as even the smallest of farmers are now major capitalists with the meteoric rise in land price not value. Labour would tax this wealth, even though it is worthless to us unless we sell up.
    What all governments cannot see is the bigger picture. The conservative government under Walker could see the value of producing our own food, they did have a drive to do so until about 1985ish, when a policy of self sufficiency was dropped, especially in favour of Europe, who greeted that with alacrity.
    The policy of non product related subsidy fell right in to the hands of those full of envy of large landowners, a huge mistake encouraged I am afraid, even supported by our own NFU who refused to cap payments.
    I am going to a meeting at Bishop Burton on Friday , organised by the Yorkshire Agricultural Adventurers, the theme is Farming after Brexit. It is addressed by the great and the good of the industry, including an MP, NFU expert, Caroline Drummond, etc etc
    I will try and pass on the undoubted wisdom I derive afterwards.
    jack caley
    I learnt a lot about Politics when I was in the young conservatives and Robert Maxwell was our local MP

    The strange thing was I met Nick Brown in a local hotel along with some other farmers, we were having a local NFU meeting at the same times as a local union meeting. The local unionists were obviously good chapel people ( no offence meant) so went home early leaving Us, Nick Brown and his minders at the bar. He said as long as we were buying he was listening. He was actually open to debates and we had a very good evening.
    Later I had a lot of dealings with a certain Mrs Becket when they were reforming the CAP payments and she was certainly not just happy to listen but also took up several points we made. I was part of a group who had very little claim on acreage payments as we grew very little cereals, mainly diversified cropping. it was certainly thanks to a small bunch of u,s that we had the scheme whereby payments were gradually averaged out , instead of as in Scotland where Grandfather rights ruled
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I learnt a lot about Politics when I was in the young conservatives and Robert Maxwell was our local MP

    The strange thing was I met Nick Brown in a local hotel along with some other farmers, we were having a local NFU meeting at the same times as a local union meeting. The local unionists were obviously good chapel people ( no offence meant) so went home early leaving Us, Nick Brown and his minders at the bar. He said as long as we were buying he was listening. He was actually open to debates and we had a very good evening.
    Later I had a lot of dealings with a certain Mrs Becket when they were reforming the CAP payments and she was certainly not just happy to listen but also took up several points we made. I was part of a group who had very little claim on acreage payments as we grew very little cereals, mainly diversified cropping. it was certainly thanks to a small bunch of u,s that we had the scheme whereby payments were gradually averaged out , instead of as in Scotland where Grandfather rights ruled
    I met Nick Brown at a party at Ben Gills one day. Ben Gill did work for me and we could discuss things quite openly, until he to became a politician.
    I also found Nick Brown very pleasant, open to discussion. I have been told that it is a politicians practice to listen, go away, and then do his own thing anyway.
    The two things were not related but at the time we were in serious financial difficulties as a result of the pig industry decline. Under Nick Brown there was a scheme for pig farmers to get out. We took the money, demolished the pig buildings and managed to survive by the skin of our teeth.
    There were many others in this area who took the money,and got rid of their pigs. Now Cranswick up the road import 42 per cent of their pig meat from Europe.
    Maybe the lesson from all this is that politicians do listen a little and then put sticking plaster over a problem without really understanding the big picture.
    I can see this happening again with Gove, he has heard all this about wealthy land owners getting payments merely for owning land. He will take away the payments altogether, from big and small alike, Europe will carry on and we will import even more, as we did with the pigs.
    I will report tomorrow's meeting at Bishop Burton next week.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I met Nick Brown at a party at Ben Gills one day. Ben Gill did work for me and we could discuss things quite openly, until he to became a politician.
    I also found Nick Brown very pleasant, open to discussion. I have been told that it is a politicians practice to listen, go away, and then do his own thing anyway.
    The two things were not related but at the time we were in serious financial difficulties as a result of the pig industry decline. Under Nick Brown there was a scheme for pig farmers to get out. We took the money, demolished the pig buildings and managed to survive by the skin of our teeth.
    There were many others in this area who took the money,and got rid of their pigs. Now Cranswick up the road import 42 per cent of their pig meat from Europe.
    Maybe the lesson from all this is that politicians do listen a little and then put sticking plaster over a problem without really understanding the big picture.
    I can see this happening again with Gove, he has heard all this about wealthy land owners getting payments merely for owning land. He will take away the payments altogether, from big and small alike, Europe will carry on and we will import even more, as we did with the pigs.
    I will report tomorrow's meeting at Bishop Burton next week.
    jack caley
    I am afraid you are right.
    what happened to the pig industry was diabolical, like you a friend of mine who had invested huge amounts in modern ultra high welfare housing was wiped out by there importation of low welfare pork, but whose fault was it? The government could easily have legislated against it, but they only ever legislate for our country to make our voters believe something has been done. The truth of course is thew average man on the street could not give a toss.
    Now I look round at some of the " pig friendly" outdoor pig units with disgust at what is often going on there. I do agree that the best ones do a very good job, but this was always the case, inside or out.
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I am afraid you are right.
    what happened to the pig industry was diabolical, like you a friend of mine who had invested huge amounts in modern ultra high welfare housing was wiped out by there importation of low welfare pork, but whose fault was it? The government could easily have legislated against it, but they only ever legislate for our country to make our voters believe something has been done. The truth of course is thew average man on the street could not give a toss.
    Now I look round at some of the " pig friendly" outdoor pig units with disgust at what is often going on there. I do agree that the best ones do a very good job, but this was always the case, inside or out.
    The meeting at. Bishop Burton was very well attended, and in some respects quite informative.
    I am interested that a friend of yours suffered as we did, in the pig industry. The problem is that well meaning MP,s listen to campaigners, who may or may not have a point, enact some legislation without really appreciating the ensuing effect.
    There was a well briefed NFU guy at that meeting, I asked the question about welfare standards, and the loss of our industry. He hid behind WTO rules and said our government could do little about it, even including chlorinated chicken.
    The MP, a practising Yorkshire farmer, was quite illuminating. He claimed that he was not included in a parliamentary committee because he might vote against Goves bill! To be fair he had grasped the issue about food versus the environment in the bill.Apparently that was why the whips refused him on the select committee. Yet another example of excluding politicians who ACTUALLY know something about the subject.
    Another speaker, a very good one, was Tim Poskitt of carrot fame, who employs migrant labour. Obvious where he stood!
    Caroline Drummond of LEAF who I met years ago, very accomplished speaker, environmentalist, the NFU will have a job competing with her in Mr Goves ear!
    Overall, I would not say that I liked what I heard.
    They all seemed to think we will get a fudged settlement, lasting years.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The meeting at. Bishop Burton was very well attended, and in some respects quite informative.
    I am interested that a friend of yours suffered as we did, in the pig industry. The problem is that well meaning MP,s listen to campaigners, who may or may not have a point, enact some legislation without really appreciating the ensuing effect.
    There was a well briefed NFU guy at that meeting, I asked the question about welfare standards, and the loss of our industry. He hid behind WTO rules and said our government could do little about it, even including chlorinated chicken.
    The MP, a practising Yorkshire farmer, was quite illuminating. He claimed that he was not included in a parliamentary committee because he might vote against Goves bill! To be fair he had grasped the issue about food versus the environment in the bill.Apparently that was why the whips refused him on the select committee. Yet another example of excluding politicians who ACTUALLY know something about the subject.
    Another speaker, a very good one, was Tim Poskitt of carrot fame, who employs migrant labour. Obvious where he stood!
    Caroline Drummond of LEAF who I met years ago, very accomplished speaker, environmentalist, the NFU will have a job competing with her in Mr Goves ear!
    Overall, I would not say that I liked what I heard.
    They all seemed to think we will get a fudged settlement, lasting years.
    jack caley
    I think you are very right there Jack! A fudged settlement which I guess will give us the worst of all worlds, still paying in, with no control of the rules in the future, and our own Government giving all to the greens, welfarists and every man with a cause.
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I think you are very right there Jack! A fudged settlement which I guess will give us the worst of all worlds, still paying in, with no control of the rules in the future, and our own Government giving all to the greens, welfarists and every man with a cause.
    I had put up another post, but for some unknown reason it never appeared.
    It was regarding Brexit and EU,s attitude regarding borders, i.e. Ireland.
    My son came through from Italy recently via Luxembourg as he usually does. He fuels up there, on the way out, and back. He can save 500 in fuel a trip that way.
    Luxembourg has two main filling stations, both qualify as the biggest filling stations in the world, having about 20 lorry buys each, without cars.
    Being an open border, they attract vehicles from all over Europe. Lorries have a maximum capacity of 1500 litres, so Roumanian lorries can fill up there easily travel to Scotland on toll free roads and fill up on the way back.
    Of course Luxembourg does very well out of this, even though the fuel tax is lower, the volume is huge.
    Jean Claude Drunker will not allow an open Irish border, but Luxembourg is another matter.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I had put up another post, but for some unknown reason it never appeared.
    It was regarding Brexit and EU,s attitude regarding borders, i.e. Ireland.
    My son came through from Italy recently via Luxembourg as he usually does. He fuels up there, on the way out, and back. He can save 500 in fuel a trip that way.
    Luxembourg has two main filling stations, both qualify as the biggest filling stations in the world, having about 20 lorry buys each, without cars.
    Being an open border, they attract vehicles from all over Europe. Lorries have a maximum capacity of 1500 litres, so Roumanian lorries can fill up there easily travel to Scotland on toll free roads and fill up on the way back.
    Of course Luxembourg does very well out of this, even though the fuel tax is lower, the volume is huge.
    Jean Claude Drunker will not allow an open Irish border, but Luxembourg is another matter.
    Jack Caley
    Jack, what is the issue? Luxembourg is in the EU so lorries can fill where they like. it is up to member states to set their own fuel duties.
    It is though high time to introduce road tolling in the UK as they do in so much of the rest of Europe, reduce vehicle tax but make foreign lorries pay for using our roads
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Jack, what is the issue? Luxembourg is in the EU so lorries can fill where they like. it is up to member states to set their own fuel duties.
    It is though high time to introduce road tolling in the UK as they do in so much of the rest of Europe, reduce vehicle tax but make foreign lorries pay for using our roads
    The point is that EU is one ruthless protectionist for itself, but is extremely concerned that Northern Ireland might just provide the sort of opportunity to carry on a similar sort of operation across the border with imports from America for instance. After all similar things took place before, pumping red diesel across the border for instance.
    My son in Spain tells me similar things happen with Gibaraltar.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    The point is that EU is one ruthless protectionist for itself, but is extremely concerned that Northern Ireland might just provide the sort of opportunity to carry on a similar sort of operation across the border with imports from America for instance. After all similar things took place before, pumping red diesel across the border for instance.
    My son in Spain tells me similar things happen with Gibaraltar.
    jack caley
    Luxembourg is only doing what the UK has done with corporation tax in its own national interest . Why is protecting EU food standards and prices against those across the Atlantic that are 30 to 40% cheaper for producers and at a lacks standard of protection for consumers such a bad thing .
    Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    Luxembourg is only doing what the UK has done with corporation tax in its own national interest . Why is protecting EU food standards and prices against those across the Atlantic that are 30 to 40% cheaper for producers and at a lacks standard of protection for consumers such a bad thing .
    Point taken, you are quite right, but cheap food has been the aim of both parties for years especially the conservatives. It was only the protection of the CAP that protected us anyway. As soon as we ditched production related support and went to acreage payments,the writing was on the wall. The NFU was as much to blame in this as they resisted a cap on acreage. It was always going to be politically unpopular paying money to the fat cats.
    Do not forget though that EU destroyed our businesses, the sheep industry was very fortunate, not like the pig industry.
    All a complex problem, but farming was never going to come out of this very well anyway.
    jack caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    Point taken, you are quite right, but cheap food has been the aim of both parties for years especially the conservatives. It was only the protection of the CAP that protected us anyway. As soon as we ditched production related support and went to acreage payments,the writing was on the wall. The NFU was as much to blame in this as they resisted a cap on acreage. It was always going to be politically unpopular paying money to the fat cats.
    Do not forget though that EU destroyed our businesses, the sheep industry was very fortunate, not like the pig industry.
    All a complex problem, but farming was never going to come out of this very well anyway.
    jack caley
    Jack, the cap on acreage payments was the mainland farmers dream, with their incredibly small farms thanks to Napoleonic laws designed to ensure that nobody ever had large holdings. to anyone who does not know, Napoleonic law ensures that holdings are split between descendants equally. This has meant they already avoided the worst of the set aside and so many other rules which does not apply to smaller farmers already, anybody notice an apparent lack of such schemes across Europe?
    With a cap on payments to large farmers would ensure acreage payments , already far higher there than here would have been increased to these small holdings as we would have lost ours for 95% or more of farmers here.
    Remember they see a large farm as 10 hectare!

    Do not ever confuse the style of farming there, similar to here, which is but dominated by contractors to an even greater extent, wall to wall cereals but actually owned by some very small individuals. I laughed on my recent trip to see a very large field possibly 500 acres or more of maize 3 large JD machines were sitting on the edge having just finished cutting, but there was a very small plot possibly 5 acres being cut very slowly by an ancient combine right in the middle. Obviously Pierre, was not going to pay those big boys, there expensive contractors charges
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Jack, the cap on acreage payments was the mainland farmers dream, with their incredibly small farms thanks to Napoleonic laws designed to ensure that nobody ever had large holdings. to anyone who does not know, Napoleonic law ensures that holdings are split between descendants equally. This has meant they already avoided the worst of the set aside and so many other rules which does not apply to smaller farmers already, anybody notice an apparent lack of such schemes across Europe?
    With a cap on payments to large farmers would ensure acreage payments , already far higher there than here would have been increased to these small holdings as we would have lost ours for 95% or more of farmers here.
    Remember they see a large farm as 10 hectare!

    Do not ever confuse the style of farming there, similar to here, which is but dominated by contractors to an even greater extent, wall to wall cereals but actually owned by some very small individuals. I laughed on my recent trip to see a very large field possibly 500 acres or more of maize 3 large JD machines were sitting on the edge having just finished cutting, but there was a very small plot possibly 5 acres being cut very slowly by an ancient combine right in the middle. Obviously Pierre, was not going to pay those big boys, there expensive contractors charges
    I think I am going to change my name to Pierre!
    It has been fashionable to employ a consultant/expert whose advice is to employ contractors around here. Not my scene really!
    We once contract farmed a local farm for one year, at the behest of the owners , an insurance company. We were the only ones who made a profit out of that farm that year.
    Actually, Pierre with his own labour, using an old combine, long since written off on the books, was not quite so daft. At the end of the day, he would finish up with a lot more money in his back pocket.
    For various reasons, until this last year, we had been employing contract sprayers. This last year my son bought a saecond hand 36 metre sprayer, he is a good mechanic, so kept it repaired, as he does with the combine, and we have noticed a substantial benefit.
    Crops sprayed dead on time, grain moisture under control, as we have our own truck, managed to deliver all wheat undried in to the bioethanol plant for 185 per tonne.
    I appreciate that it has been in the governments interest to force ever increasing size of farms, to keep food/commodity prices low, but in the end it merely transferred the share of the average food bill away from the farmer, towards the food processor and especially the governments friend the supermarket.
    I could be a Luddite, but that is how I look at things.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I think I am going to change my name to Pierre!
    It has been fashionable to employ a consultant/expert whose advice is to employ contractors around here. Not my scene really!
    We once contract farmed a local farm for one year, at the behest of the owners , an insurance company. We were the only ones who made a profit out of that farm that year.
    Actually, Pierre with his own labour, using an old combine, long since written off on the books, was not quite so daft. At the end of the day, he would finish up with a lot more money in his back pocket.
    For various reasons, until this last year, we had been employing contract sprayers. This last year my son bought a saecond hand 36 metre sprayer, he is a good mechanic, so kept it repaired, as he does with the combine, and we have noticed a substantial benefit.
    Crops sprayed dead on time, grain moisture under control, as we have our own truck, managed to deliver all wheat undried in to the bioethanol plant for 185 per tonne.
    I appreciate that it has been in the governments interest to force ever increasing size of farms, to keep food/commodity prices low, but in the end it merely transferred the share of the average food bill away from the farmer, towards the food processor and especially the governments friend the supermarket.
    I could be a Luddite, but that is how I look at things.
    Jack Caley
    I would agree with much of what you say Jack. I do a bit of advisory work and cannot say too much on a public forum , but I too think the contractor often gets the best deal, but if he did not, why would he do it. However for many "farmers" out there, not able to make ends meet on their acreage, taking the sub, and another job is giving them a better lifestyle than struggling on with ancient kit dilapidated barns etc. worrying that they are going to fail an inspection for not noting some little thing in his records
    Of course contractors may make a better profit, at the end of the day, time he has paid the HP on the huge combine, his tracklayer the SP sprayer and all the associated kit, they rarely find they have that much in the pocket. Then after 5 years another young farmers son comes along and offers there landowner a better deal.
    The trouble is , as we both know, there is far too little money in growing food today, so it is all about cutting corners and costs.
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    Re: Sugar beet

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I would agree with much of what you say Jack. I do a bit of advisory work and cannot say too much on a public forum , but I too think the contractor often gets the best deal, but if he did not, why would he do it. However for many "farmers" out there, not able to make ends meet on their acreage, taking the sub, and another job is giving them a better lifestyle than struggling on with ancient kit dilapidated barns etc. worrying that they are going to fail an inspection for not noting some little thing in his records
    Of course contractors may make a better profit, at the end of the day, time he has paid the HP on the huge combine, his tracklayer the SP sprayer and all the associated kit, they rarely find they have that much in the pocket. Then after 5 years another young farmers son comes along and offers there landowner a better deal.
    The trouble is , as we both know, there is far too little money in growing food today, so it is all about cutting corners and costs.
    You are quite correct, it is about individual circumstances, and whether the farmer is capable of making old gear work. There are some who would say it is more difficult to keep modern tackle working with all its computers and stupid electrics!
    I do agree with you about the Napoleonic laws in France, however I was once on a trip in the Ardeche in a party of farmers, one of them 500 acres in Essex. We were on a 27 acre farm in France, the Frenchman was making more profit than Essex man!
    jack caley

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