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Thread: A bit more help please ? MF 135

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    A bit more help please ? MF 135

    This time it's an MF135. 1967 with a bent axle and 3A-152 engine. I have got diesel coming out from behind the crankshaft pulley and I assume that it is coming out of the front of the injector pump and thereby getting into the timing cover. I assume that there is a seal between the pump and the timing cover that has gone. Do I just undo the bolts as shown below and take the plate off that holds the oil filler on, disconnect all diesel lines, and then undo the bolts on the other side of the pump (not shown and which allow for timing adjustment) and withdraw the pump ?

    If that's correct then presumably I need to line up some timing marks on the timing gears before I remove the pump ?

    Or am I talking rubbish ? Thanks for any help anyone can give. Correction thanks to Agrimax. It is not a 3A-152 engine, it is of course an AD3-152. Sorry about that. I was was trying to be clever.
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    Last edited by zaza; 16-08-19 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    This time it's an MF135. 1967 with a bent axle and 3A-152 engine. I have got diesel coming out from behind the crankshaft pulley and I assume that it is coming out of the front of the injector pump and thereby getting into the timing cover. I assume that there is a seal between the pump and the timing cover that has gone. Do I just undo the bolts as shown below and take the plate off that holds the oil filler on, disconnect all diesel lines, and then undo the bolts on the other side of the pump (not shown and which allow for timing adjustment) and withdraw the pump ?

    If that's correct then presumably I need to line up some timing marks on the timing gears before I remove the pump ?

    Or am I talking rubbish ? Thanks for any help anyone can give.
    Did it once (replaced the seal on the pump shaft) on the neighbours's 4 cylinder 35. Somehow managed to turn the pump one revolution (or something). Engine would start & run to low revs, but no more. Eventually called the doctor who took the pump off, rotated the shaft one turn replaced it et voila! We had a running engine! Did I feel like a goose!

    I suspect the fuel was being injected into the pre-combustion chamber one rev. out of time, providing enough juice to start but not run up to full speed.

    I'll see what the 135 workshop manual says tomorrow, but I expect someone else (no names, no pack drill) will provide the answer before then

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thanks John. Much appreciated.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    You mean a Perkins AD3.152 in there zaza. Unless someones changed it to a 35 engine of course!
    It would have to be the internal seal on the end of the pump that's leaking. Just remove everything as you say and don't worry about timing marks for refitting. There is a slot on the end the pump shaft that the 3 bolts holding the gear on screw into. There's a dowel on the gear that fits into the pump shaft.Just line up dowel to slot and bolt on again.
    (The 4 cyl Fe35 has a quill shaft driving the pump......different set up to the Perkins.)

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thank you for the correction Agrimax. I have edited my original post and thank you also for the instructions. I assume that I take the pump off the flange and then take the 3 bolts out that hold the gear on the shaft ? But surely when I have done that and if I happen to turn the pump a bit if it isn't in the right place when I bolt the pump back in and it is meshing differently on the driving gear in the timing cover the timing will be out ?

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Take a note of the pump position in relation to the slotted holes where it's held on to the back of the timing case.They are usually in the middle anyway.Take the 3 bolts at the front off the gear first.(Behind the oil filler cap plate). Stuff a piece of rag in between the gear and timing housing........just in case you drop a bolt.Then remove the 3 nuts that hold the pump onto the back of the housing and slide the pump out.The gear will sit in there and can't drop or turn unless the engine is turned of course.When putting back in,if the pump has been turned,just turn it till the slot lines with the dowel in the gear.It can't be wrong.The dowel will only mesh in one place.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thanks again Agrimax. That makes sense. I like the idea of stuffing a piece of rag in there to stop the pump gear from moving onto different teeth and also for stopping a bolt from dropping down into the bottom of the timing cover. After removing the 3 bolts that hold the gear onto the pump shaft does the pump come away from the gear easily enough ? You mentioned a dowel on the gear, does the pump come away easily away from the dowel or is it likely to be tight ?

    I was going to mark the position of the pump in relation to the slots and mine are about in the middle as you say. I've never moved it. When the pump is on the bench what sort of a job is it to get the old seal out ? Or do I take it to a fuel pump/injection specialist ?

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Any pumps I've removed have came away very easily. I've never looked at replacing the seal in a DPA pump I'm afraid. I'd guess it would be better left to the experts...

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    Any pumps I've removed have came away very easily. I've never looked at replacing the seal in a DPA pump I'm afraid. I'd guess it would be better left to the experts...
    Thank you yet again for your help. I'll get the pump off when I have a bit of time and see what it looks like. The tractor has about 5k hours on it and is 52 years old so the pump probably wouldn't hurt with a bit of attention. It's never been off the tractor but the problem isn't helped by the fact that she doesn't do much work nowadays.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Did it once (replaced the seal on the pump shaft) on the neighbours's 4 cylinder 35. Somehow managed to turn the pump one revolution (or something). Engine would start & run to low revs, but no more. Eventually called the doctor who took the pump off, rotated the shaft one turn replaced it et voila! We had a running engine! Did I feel like a goose!

    I suspect the fuel was being injected into the pre-combustion chamber one rev. out of time, providing enough juice to start but not run up to full speed.

    I'll see what the 135 workshop manual says tomorrow, but I expect someone else (no names, no pack drill) will provide the answer before then

    JV
    The workshop manual describes only how to remove and replace the pump; it is silent about the seal. As I remember, (the pumps on the 35 & 135 should be the same, surely) it's an O ring, and easy to replace. I expect you will have no trouble making it up as you go along, once the pump is off.

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Thank you yet again for your help. I'll get the pump off when I have a bit of time and see what it looks like. The tractor has about 5k hours on it and is 52 years old so the pump probably wouldn't hurt with a bit of attention. It's never been off the tractor but the problem isn't helped by the fact that she doesn't do much work nowadays.
    Gosh! Only 5 K hours? Not yet run in! My old girl's hour meter stopped at about 7k, and that was decades ago. Wouldn't be surprised if it's up near 20k by now.

    I had the injectors out for their 500 hr check, and the engine's not been touched since, so you can be assured of a long life yet.

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    NnThat
    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    The workshop manual describes only how to remove and replace the pump; it is silent about the seal. As I remember, (the pumps on the 35 & 135 should be the same, surely) it's an O ring, and easy to replace. I expect you will have no trouble making it up as you go along, once the pump is off.

    JV
    When I start making it up as I go along (as I usually do) thatís the time it usually goes pear shaped and then I start saying naughty words. 😠

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Gosh! Only 5 K hours? Not yet run in! My old girl's hour meter stopped at about 7k, and that was decades ago. Wouldn't be surprised if it's up near 20k by now.

    I had the injectors out for their 500 hr check, and the engine's not been touched since, so you can be assured of a long life yet.

    JV
    Itís only ever been used as a runabout really. Bit of Haybobbing, spud planting, would just about manage a 5tn grain trailer. But they would run on fresh air. Very economical.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    It seems it's a simple enough job to replace the front seal in the pump. An old thread on it here.(4 cyl Perkins but the same set up).
    http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/sho...esel-into-sump

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thanks for that. Very useful.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Thanks for that. Very useful.
    It was so useful that I am a bit embarrassed right now. I hadn't thought that it might be the lift pump or the heater plug that is allowing diesel into the timing cover. But it is leaking from behind the fan belt pulley on the end of the crank and I automatically assumed that it is a seal on the injector pump that was letting the diesel into the timing cover. But the engine "oil" level does rise a bit on the dipstick and so maybe I'll do the easy things first. There is a fuel tap under the tank so I might just turn that off. I had previously thought that if I did that then I might have to bleed the fuel system before she would start again.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    It was so useful that I am a bit embarrassed right now. I hadn't thought that it might be the lift pump or the heater plug that is allowing diesel into the timing cover. But it is leaking from behind the fan belt pulley on the end of the crank and I automatically assumed that it is a seal on the injector pump that was letting the diesel into the timing cover. But the engine "oil" level does rise a bit on the dipstick and so maybe I'll do the easy things first. There is a fuel tap under the tank so I might just turn that off. I had previously thought that if I did that then I might have to bleed the fuel system before she would start again.
    Just bin the lift pump. If you were to waste time and open up the diaphragm then at that age it will be well stretched instead of fairly flat, putting just a diaphragm in is a waste of money given how cheap reasonable new units are. Changing it will rule it out of the leaking problem and you will also have a decent lift pump that will prime up easily when you want it to and also when your at full chatt, max throttle gunning it like you were a young money grabbing contractor again- it will also be able to feed plenty of fuel!
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thanks FF. I might just do that. But I have always bought lift pump kits and refurbed them. I'll look round for a new pump but there is one firm that trades nationally I know will have them but I won't deal with them.

    "Money grabbing young contractor" ??? Yep, that was me. But I never "gunned" machines. But I did work them hard - there is a subtle difference. Hated to hear people running their tractors flat out, even on the road. And when you start any kind of internal combustion engine don't rev the guts out of it straight away. Just start off a bit gentle, driving along the headland at 1/4 throttle if it's been left out in the field at night, reversing out of the garage if it a car/pickyp and sitting there for a few seconds. Let everything circulate. How many times do we see (and hear) people start a car first thing in the morning and they're doing 60mph by the time they get to te end of the village ?

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    I have looked for a decent parts breakdown on the 'net but they seem to be only service manuals with poor photos. I just wondered if there is an oil seal behind the gear on the end of the crankshaft ? i.e. I know there is one in the timing cover (which is clearly leaking) but is there one behind the gear (between that and the block ?) If there is how do the timing gears get their oil ?

    Just to repeat myself, I really appreciate all the help I'm getting on here.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    I have looked for a decent parts breakdown on the 'net but they seem to be only service manuals with poor photos. I just wondered if there is an oil seal behind the gear on the end of the crankshaft ? i.e. I know there is one in the timing cover (which is clearly leaking) but is there one behind the gear (between that and the block ?) If there is how do the timing gears get their oil ?

    Just to repeat myself, I really appreciate all the help I'm getting on here.
    I'll consult the Service Manual Oracle in the morning - but I expect someone will advise before that happens .

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Sorry to jump in front of you again John................

    Thought I could have copied and pasted or took a screen shot of a paragraph in a PDF manual but it won't let me!
    Basically,oil that has lubed the camshaft is gathered behind a weir and the overflow from the weir then lubes the timing gears. That's a simplified version of what the manual says.
    Just the outer cover crank seal zaza.No seal in behind.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    Sorry to jump in front of you again John................

    Thought I could have copied and pasted or took a screen shot of a paragraph in a PDF manual but it won't let me!
    Basically,oil that has lubed the camshaft is gathered behind a weir and the overflow from the weir then lubes the timing gears. That's a simplified version of what the manual says.
    Just the outer cover crank seal zaza.No seal in behind.
    Thanks Agrimax - no need to apologise, you've saved me some time. You've also confirmed what I'd expected.

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    A question for Agrimax (since he's on this thread and hoping zaza won't mind me hijacking the thread) : the cabin light in my MF4225 doesn't work; I presume a failed globe. How do I get to it? The lens/cover turns as if it is the switch, so I don't want to apply force.

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    John, assuming the light to be the same as in my 6270, turn it anti-clockwise to the fully off position and then with a bit of pressure turn it some more and the lens will come off.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    John, assuming the light to be the same as in my 6270, turn it anti-clockwise to the fully off position and then with a bit of pressure turn it some more and the lens will come off.
    Aha! Thank you. I'll try that tomorra.

    JV
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    Sorry to jump in front of you again John................

    Thought I could have copied and pasted or took a screen shot of a paragraph in a PDF manual but it won't let me!
    Basically,oil that has lubed the camshaft is gathered behind a weir and the overflow from the weir then lubes the timing gears. That's a simplified version of what the manual says.
    Just the outer cover crank seal zaza.No seal in behind.
    Thanks ever so much for that Agrimax. With regard to taking a screen shot have a look to see if you have got a program called Snipping Tool on your 'puter. I am using Windows 8.1 and it's a super little utility that came with my machine. Apologies if you are using an Apple product but I expect they have something similar. If you are using Firefox then do Control, Shift, and the letter S all at the same time and you will also be able to capture a screen if you follow the instructions. Control S works on some browsers, certainly on IE & Chrome.

    UPDATE ! My Daughter tells me that if you are using an iPad you can get a photo. of whatever is on your screen by pressing one of the Volume buttons at the same time as pressing the Home button.
    Last edited by zaza; 20-08-19 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Thanks zaza.I'm on Win 10 using Firefox. I'll have a play around later.

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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Right click on the Windows Home icon on your Taskbar and then left click on Search. In the search box type Snipping and then you will probably find Snipping Tool. Right click on that and put it on your desktop. Then double click on it when it's on your desktop and then you get the option "New" Click on that and you can then outline that area of the screen that you want to record. Then take the Save option (lwhich ooks like a floppy disk) and it wil ask you where you want to save it. Choose a folder, give it a name and click on save and then go to the folder where you have saved it and you will have an image of the area (as a jpeg). I have put my Snipping option on the Taskbar and it's then dead easy (and quick) to get to as you can see in the image below.
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    Sorry to jump in front of you again John................

    Thought I could have copied and pasted or took a screen shot of a paragraph in a PDF manual but it won't let me!
    Basically,oil that has lubed the camshaft is gathered behind a weir and the overflow from the weir then lubes the timing gears. That's a simplified version of what the manual says.
    Just the outer cover crank seal zaza.No seal in behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by agrimax View Post
    Thanks zaza.I'm on Win 10 using Firefox. I'll have a play around later.

    I've used Foxit reader for years, one quirk of it is you can double left click text in a PDF document and the arrow/hand pointer changes allowing the text to be highlighted and then selected/copied

    https://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf-reader/
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    Re: A bit more help please ? MF 135

    Well Snipping tool is now on my taskbar! I'll try it in the future and then maybe have a look at Foxit too. Ta folks.

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