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Thread: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

  1. #1
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    NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Got one of the TM155's in for a noisy CCLS hydraulic pump and warning lights coming on. Originally it started putting the pressure filter light on when it was a very cold morning for a little while and then go away.

    Testing the piston pump showed plenty of flow/pressure, the steering pump tested ok but unable to get into the pipework with a flow gauge means the procedure is a bit vague to say the least really, but it blew the relief valve as required, it was the charge pump that was producing the minimum or less oil flow. Our dealer loaned the tool to remove the two relief valves that allows the charge pump oil to circulate when nobody's steering, using the spools or lift arms and to relive oil if the charge pressure gets too high, both were happily ok seeing as even with dealer old stock prices they were an arm & leg each!

    In the end the noise came back in style and it also started to loose 2-3 gears in the middle of each range command three ranges. Of with the wheel and pump off



    About an hour later............









    Chance to use the recent addition to the workshop- its only a little-un but the jib crane and electric block was 100 and just right to have on this side to swing over the lathe, parts washer, two pillar drills and the bench. getting to long in the tooth to be humping weighty stuff around and also trying to balance long bit of steel in the drills!







    Eyes left...... in the parts washer





    Eyes right...... on the bench





    Well it turned out the charge pump physically looks fine, but its the steering pump that looks to be causing the problem, like the old power steering pumps the gears have milled out the casing where the plain bearings have worn so there is significant alloy gouged out of the housing, the theory is although the charge pump tested like it was the problem, I think the steering pump is cavitiating the oil so much and feeding some of this back into the charge circuit.

    Heres the old pump and the replacement, one slight problem- a 25mm shaft v a 42mm shaft! Sold as the pump for our set up, it turns out there is another available winging its way over here tomorrow- with a 25mm long shaft!







    One problem over, now sift through the orings to put it back together- right description in umpteem languages and the right part number for a 139mm x 3mm O ring between the two biggest halves of the CCLS pump.......






    Oops, quality control alert! Errrr, think thats a 1-3/4" dowty washer if I'm not mistaken !! Now the fun starts, none in the UK, Belgium next, request for part to be picked and checked its an O ring before shipping it to dealer on next day am for tomorrow. My money is on another dowty washer!






    Finally, While we were in the area and being as its 15yr old I whipped the back end oil pan off and pulled the suction pipe out, 1 to check it hadn't fractured and 2 to see if the oring was ok. Pipe looks fine but the O ring is hard as expected, it shouldn't be effecting things but it was worth changing it for anew better fit ring and also to clean out the accumulation of 15 years gear grinding and tooth to tooth wear. Typically the design the pan with a lip around the drain plug so that you can't get a proper drain at service time.








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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Well yesterday came, the correct pump didn't but should be here mon-tue hopefully.

    Meanwhile, CNH Belgium sent the replacement seal overnight to our dealer who had requested it to be picked and checked that it was actually a Oring seal, turned up midday to the dealer and I was right, same packaging etc and same dowty washer!! Dealer now has to put a notification to CNH that there is an error with their stock, to back this up we have sent images of the part-

    What we want is one of these-






    To go in here-




    And not more of these!!




    The only other option would be to go for a full seal kit for all 3 pumps which is an arm & a leg, plus with the new pump and having not pulled the ccls piston pump apart it would be a waste of parts and money, plus there could be the chance that the seal kit may also come with a dowty washer in place of the simple oring required......!!

    Now CNH are into what I call "disaster recovery mode" like everyone these accidents sometimes happen even though there is always a lot of trumpet blowing by all manufacturers about how good their back up is and keeping their customers going, now we have to sit back and see if and how they react and put us back were we should be with the right part in out hands.

    I'm not optimistic although perhaps CNH could open up a seal kit and see if the right seal is there? Some years ago JCB stood by their word when they admitted they were unable to supply a crown wheel and pinion for the front diff on our big JCB 456zx loading shovel, after a couple of days the admitted as much and took the extraordinary step of supplying us with a complete front axle differential, ex stock in UK central parts at the same price as quoted for the crown wheel and pinion- approx 4k worth IIRC. That was the sort of action you always hope for when someone drops a clanger, we all do them, but its all about how well the mess is replaced with action.

    I reckon that if the new pump is 100% correct, it may be mated up with the charge pump reassembled with the old oring but backed up with some flange gasket silicone.
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Well yesterday came, the correct pump didn't but should be here mon-tue hopefully.

    Meanwhile, CNH Belgium sent the replacement seal overnight to our dealer who had requested it to be picked and checked that it was actually a Oring seal, turned up midday to the dealer and I was right, same packaging etc and same dowty washer!! Dealer now has to put a notification to CNH that there is an error with their stock, to back this up we have sent images of the part-

    What we want is one of these-






    To go in here-




    And not more of these!!




    The only other option would be to go for a full seal kit for all 3 pumps which is an arm & a leg, plus with the new pump and having not pulled the ccls piston pump apart it would be a waste of parts and money, plus there could be the chance that the seal kit may also come with a dowty washer in place of the simple oring required......!!

    Now CNH are into what I call "disaster recovery mode" like everyone these accidents sometimes happen even though there is always a lot of trumpet blowing by all manufacturers about how good their back up is and keeping their customers going, now we have to sit back and see if and how they react and put us back were we should be with the right part in out hands.

    I'm not optimistic although perhaps CNH could open up a seal kit and see if the right seal is there? Some years ago JCB stood by their word when they admitted they were unable to supply a crown wheel and pinion for the front diff on our big JCB 456zx loading shovel, after a couple of days the admitted as much and took the extraordinary step of supplying us with a complete front axle differential, ex stock in UK central parts at the same price as quoted for the crown wheel and pinion- approx 4k worth IIRC. That was the sort of action you always hope for when someone drops a clanger, we all do them, but its all about how well the mess is replaced with action.

    I reckon that if the new pump is 100% correct, it may be mated up with the charge pump reassembled with the old oring but backed up with some flange gasket silicone.
    Some years ago I bought a kit for making O rings of different sizes. It contained several metres of different diameter rubber, a plastic tool with holes for each size of rubber and a slit along its length, so that when inserted in the correct hole, a blade (supplied) could make a square cut in the end of the rubber. Instant glue could then be applied to the two cut ends which could be brought together accurately, using a grove in the end of the plastic tool.

    Is something similar not available to make a replacement O ring?

    JV
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Some years ago I bought a kit for making O rings of different sizes. It contained several metres of different diameter rubber, a plastic tool with holes for each size of rubber and a slit along its length, so that when inserted in the correct hole, a blade (supplied) could make a square cut in the end of the rubber. Instant glue could then be applied to the two cut ends which could be brought together accurately, using a grove in the end of the plastic tool.

    Is something similar not available to make a replacement O ring?

    JV
    Hi John,

    yes O-ring splicing kits are still about, can be a solution but sometimes the quality of the superglued joint can be problematic but they can get you out of holes.

    This type in question is a square section pressure ring, these and many others now because of today modern manufacturing machinery can be made to order in a day or two. Many places now only stock fast mover seals and anything odd or unusual may be moulded or machined to order.

    The strangest use of Orings was a Dutch "Structural" spud planter we had that used 1/2" rubber cord to make trough shaped feeder for well chitted spuds that metered them into the ground. There were 20-25 of these 1/2" orings side by side running in stepped pulleys that made the trough, each would be 2-3m in length so you bought the rubber cord in bulk at times- being two row there would be twice the number too. For winter we cut them off and stored them in the dark to try an slow down ageing and stop them getting stretched. Plenty of super-glue and a good razor blade needed!
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Hi John,

    yes O-ring splicing kits are still about, can be a solution but sometimes the quality of the superglued joint can be problematic but they can get you out of holes.

    This type in question is a square section pressure ring, these and many others now because of today modern manufacturing machinery can be made to order in a day or two. Many places now only stock fast mover seals and anything odd or unusual may be moulded or machined to order.

    The strangest use of Orings was a Dutch "Structural" spud planter we had that used 1/2" rubber cord to make trough shaped feeder for well chitted spuds that metered them into the ground. There were 20-25 of these 1/2" orings side by side running in stepped pulleys that made the trough, each would be 2-3m in length so you bought the rubber cord in bulk at times- being two row there would be twice the number too. For winter we cut them off and stored them in the dark to try an slow down ageing and stop them getting stretched. Plenty of super-glue and a good razor blade needed!
    Ah, yes. A square section seal would be a bit difficult to find in a kit - and this looks like a job you would not want to go back into to correct a fault!

    JV
    Agtronix - the home of the Weedswiper

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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Ah, yes. A square section seal would be a bit difficult to find in a kit - and this looks like a job you would not want to go back into to correct a fault!

    JV
    Well our dealer has recovered the situation for CNH!

    Following the 2nd try turning out to be another dowty washer - also correctly bagged and marked up as a "O-ring" they ordered the full pump seal kit (includes a single lip oil seal at around 60 or a fiver locally!!) , it contained the elusive square section pump oring so that was removed, CNH's miss packaged dowty washer was substituted and the kit is destined to go back to CNH where they can sort out the mess of their own making!

    So thats the seal problem sorted.....


    Remember the steering pump shaft issue-





    Well a replacement pump with the right length shaft arrived today, so armed with all the seals required I rebuilt the charge pump and added the CCLS piston pump before attempting to fit the replacement pump........then it went pear shaped!





    Old pump, New pump






    Somethings wrong- the new pumps bearing end thrust block and its pressure seal is the wrong way round






    Check the other end - thats ok , or rather its the right way round, but whats that little speck?






    That little one there? Guesses anyone?






    How about a spatter ball from a mig welder??








    Not keen on what I've found so far, so it time to pull all the guts out of the pump and inside it looks like someone has got a mig spatter ball in there
    too, even worse is that someone has tried to turn the pump shaft and heres all the scoring.









    One step forward, and several back so it seems.
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    if it wasn't for bad luck you would have no luck at all.

    Maybe it is a sign that your luck is about to change (when is the next lotto?)

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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    if it wasn't for bad luck you would have no luck at all.

    Maybe it is a sign that your luck is about to change (when is the next lotto?)

    And there's more!


    The supplier of the wrong pump (with the 42mm shaft) and this scored replacement (with the correct 25mm shaft!) suggested to swap the shafts around so it went into the good housing/body so fair enough, see what happens, changed the shaft, assembled it up, then tried to fit it, all ok until the splined drive shaft was about 6mm from home when it became tight, took it out and couldn't see anything obviously wrong so pulled the shaft/gear out complete with its bearing block and tried it into the female spline that drives it within the charge pump....







    6mm from home and same again- starts to get tight! so to confirm everything is ok with the charge pump........








    I cleaned up the original pumps shaft and bearing block and inserted it to check and in it slid right fully home!

    Looking at the two shafts, the one from the OE pump we were replacing had a more uniform spline , but the replacement shaft that sticks didn't have anything too obvious that was the cause of things sticking out.

    Luckily finding the scoring in one and and sticking spline in the other may of saved a couple of blown up pumps, normally you'd fit new parts assuming they had been correctly made- in this case tightening the cap head bolts down would of pulled the spline in but there's no guarantee the end loading on the gearwouldn't of messed up the soft alloy bearing block.
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    A while ago I finally got into the long standing TM155 hydraulic problem, after the last lot of investigations it had settled down somewhat, but eventually the filter light came back on and we had a couple of cases where it was affecting gear selection. Examining the oil, it had gained a slight metallic sheen already and the suction filter had quite a lot of fine metallic stuff in it.

    After the earlier session led to insufficient reason to throw an expensive CCLS pump on there I could only come up with the idea that the easiest way to rule the pump out would be to have both TM155's in and "borrow" the pump from the good one to see if it cured the issues with the other one but now that idea was out- with metallic debris pointing to be coming from somewhere other than the CCLS pump as was originally thought, it was time to look in the transmission. We'd been in the other TM155 years ago when the drive plate broke up and we found some unexpected debris that led us to the gearbox being stripped for a worn bottom shaft bearing so it was looking like we were heading that way again.

    After a bit of a think and a chat with our dealers service manager, it seemed worth pulling the trumpet housings off and rule anything out there first but seeing as it pulled up straight, there was no noise under braking, reasonably low hours and used with decent efficient trailer brakes it seemed worth looking if only to change the brake piston seals seeing as they were coming up to 14yrs old.




    Loads of fine filings and the brake discs seem fine











    Except for one lining, the RH outer side lining seemed to of disintegrated with the resulting metal to metal wear responsible for the filter blockage. Why only the one lining? measuring the good disc and what was left of the damaged one put them still within new limits. It can only be that we have suffered an age related failure of the lining bonding? Perhaps 14yrs is pushing their service life? This is the first brake issue on 40+ tractors/39yrs we have had here which together with the absence of other brake related symptoms failed to make it flag up as a possible cause of the CCLS pump issues!

    The repair was the resealing of both pistons, two new discs, a new outer casing, renew the oil and filters. So far all is well, although it will get a new suction filter halfway between services unless the warning light comes on but with only existing debris left after the repair it shouldn't be an issue.
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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    A while ago I finally got into the long standing TM155 hydraulic problem, after the last lot of investigations it had settled down somewhat, but eventually the filter light came back on and we had a couple of cases where it was affecting gear selection. Examining the oil, it had gained a slight metallic sheen already and the suction filter had quite a lot of fine metallic stuff in it.

    After the earlier session led to insufficient reason to throw an expensive CCLS pump on there I could only come up with the idea that the easiest way to rule the pump out would be to have both TM155's in and "borrow" the pump from the good one to see if it cured the issues with the other one but now that idea was out- with metallic debris pointing to be coming from somewhere other than the CCLS pump as was originally thought, it was time to look in the transmission. We'd been in the other TM155 years ago when the drive plate broke up and we found some unexpected debris that led us to the gearbox being stripped for a worn bottom shaft bearing so it was looking like we were heading that way again.

    After a bit of a think and a chat with our dealers service manager, it seemed worth pulling the trumpet housings off and rule anything out there first but seeing as it pulled up straight, there was no noise under braking, reasonably low hours and used with decent efficient trailer brakes it seemed worth looking if only to change the brake piston seals seeing as they were coming up to 14yrs old.




    Loads of fine filings and the brake discs seem fine











    Except for one lining, the RH outer side lining seemed to of disintegrated with the resulting metal to metal wear responsible for the filter blockage. Why only the one lining? measuring the good disc and what was left of the damaged one put them still within new limits. It can only be that we have suffered an age related failure of the lining bonding? Perhaps 14yrs is pushing their service life? This is the first brake issue on 40+ tractors/39yrs we have had here which together with the absence of other brake related symptoms failed to make it flag up as a possible cause of the CCLS pump issues!

    The repair was the resealing of both pistons, two new discs, a new outer casing, renew the oil and filters. So far all is well, although it will get a new suction filter halfway between services unless the warning light comes on but with only existing debris left after the repair it shouldn't be an issue.
    By anh chance would the operator be using a lot of RH brake to assist in turning?

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    Re: NH TM155 CCLS pump problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    By anh chance would the operator be using a lot of RH brake to assist in turning?
    Like any tractor, it may occasionally have its brakes unlocked and the odd use to aid steering, but not in a frequent way.

    The strange thing when measuring up the linings is that the flip side of the damaged disc was as good as the linings on each side of the disc from the LH side. Look closely at the worn disc and cover there is no signs of overheating/bluing so having ruled all other theories I can only think that it had a lining or adhesive failure on just that one side of the brake disc and its possible that the tractors age may be involved in that.
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