Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 81 of 81

Thread: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

  1. #61
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    OK, now it's getting interesting. Will, I looked at your Wikipedia page and followed the referenced link (http://www.pda.org.uk/notes/tn16.php). I then searched Google scholar and came up with a journal article entitled, 'A Review of the Use of the Basic Cation Saturation Ratio and the "Ideal Soil", by Menzies and Kopittke.

    The abstract is,

    The use of balanced Ca, Mg, and K ratios, as prescribed by the basic cation saturation ratio (BCSR) concept, is still used by some private soil-testing laboratories for the interpretation of soil analytical data. This review examines the suitability of the BCSR concept as a method for the interpretation of soil analytical data. According to the BCSR concept, maximum plant growth will be achieved only when the soil's exchangeable Ca, Mg, and K concentrations are approximately 65% Ca, 10% Mg, and 5% K (termed the ideal soil). This ideal soil was originally proposed by Firman Bear and coworkers in New Jersey during the 1940s as a method of reducing luxury K uptake by alfalfa (Medicago sativa L.). At about the same time, William Albrecht, working in Missouri, concluded through his own investigations that plants require a soil with a high Ca saturation for optimal growth. While it now appears that several of Albrecht's experiments were fundamentally flawed, the BCSR (balanced soil) concept has been widely promoted, suggesting that the prescribed cationic ratios provide optimum chemical, physical, and biological soil properties. Our examination of data from numerous studies (particularly those of Albrecht and Bear themselves) would suggest that, within the ranges commonly found in soils, the chemical, physical, and biological fertility of a soil is generally not influenced by the ratios of Ca, Mg, and K. The data do not support the claims of the BCSR, and continued promotion of the BCSR will result in the inefficient use of resources in agriculture and horticulture.

    The full article is freely available at:

    https://www.agronomy.org/publication...racts/71/2/259

    There are a couple of other articles that have been written on this topic which I'll have a look at. Would be interesting to know about the above two authors and find out about their background.

    If their conclusion is accepted it's quite a damning indictment of an important part of Albrecht's work.

  2. #62
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    York, Will et al...
    Please do not get me wrong I am very much in favour of nutritional farming systems (Kinsey-Albrecht and so on)..we have been trying it in various forms for the last five years....but as I have said before I have a very hungry bank-manger and an expensive wife so what we do on the farm has GOT to make money.
    We need local data...to give you an example of why.... goes back to my early interests in direct-drilling 1996...I contacted JD (US) to say I wanted to go to the US to look at direct-drilling, as it looked like a system that could transform our farming system using one of their drill which seemed to work under any conditions, but my concern was that in most years our soils would be too wet for the system to work 100% in western Europe...the question came back...what is your annual rainfall? (28") to which the response was 'many of our US direct-drillers operate with rainfall levels of 35-40" so you should have no problem in the UK'... The missing part question was what our temperatures/evaporation levels were/are....which is why direct-drilling works pretty well in Texas and Oklahoma but not always so well in SW Worcestershire...
    Local information is essential..

  3. #63
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    i think there are factors in the system that do have some workings and do have an efect

    we got tests done here they did high light some areas of probs some we kinda knew before hand with animal health probs

    but i would also have to say some of the co's doing the tests have there own barrow to push alot of the NZ co's have links to dolmite industrys in some areas it is needed with both Ca and Mg out of aline ..

    other areas can have high Mg and in those cases dolmite is the last thing needed

    the tests do become a bit useless tho if the soil can not hold water or roots move in the soil to feed

    i know people say OM is king but even then some soils can be high in OM and still be useless

    you could have high K in tests but due to compacted soils or dry weather the plants can take up say Na over takeing up K
    soil tests can show a high Ph but yet the make up of the Ph reading could be Mg and Na

    i would have no probs doing the tests BUT target the main ones out of level our case Ca S and copper .. we applyed copper this year but have not seen much change in soil test or a leaf test will watch and see

    i would question if the Ca -Mg ratio has a lot more to do with soil structer than plant and animal use

    Na is another intresting one beets rapes etc etc need higher Na levels so so could be point less trying to lower a slight Na prob but grow plants that can better handle that soil trate

    other thing is the socalled ideal soil may not be any use to the crops or animals that live in that area changeing the soil maybe be a costly program for small returns

  4. #64
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    But JD were your tests based with Albrecht/ Kinsey theory or was it a view to making sure you had enough of the nutrients in question in the soup?

    I agree that nutritionally better fed plants may be better able to withstand disease, I agree that some fertiliser sources are way better than others, and obviously if you are lacking in some nutrition or the soil is in a certain condition it will affect the availibility of other nutrients. I also agree that regular applications of P and K may well be wasted in a lot of situations.

    I have a very hard time believing the base cation saturation ratio however. And I'm not sure its terribly healthy to cherry pick some aspects of research from one guy in the 1950's and apply them now - he may have changed some of his theories if he were still alive for all we know!

  5. #65
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Hi ya Will
    yea tests sent to the USA and done over there more info that just numbers on a scale showed up total Kg's based on the tests ..

    there is a lot of he said she said between the tests they do work as a guide tho , intresting tho is our quick tests are better with haveing a better understanding of just how much is lacking in some areas

    end of the day we sell meat wool milk grain etc etc to do that we need the best crops/animals that can grow on the soils /weather sure we can mask some probs to get the output but is that a long term answer

    are soils based on USA info the best for diffrent country's and are the costs of doing that worth while

  6. #66
    plumbo
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    The original topic was headed "correcting nutrioent deficiencies, a`la Kinsey and co.

    How do you know you have a nutrient deficiency? just because the soil test show a low level (according to somebody who is probably dead) does not mean you have a deficiency in your plant. Just the same if you have a high level or excess of any mineral does not mean your crop has what it needs, in fact to the contrary an excess in the soil often correlates to a defiency in the crop eg Mg.

    No matter what the K level is in your soil I guarantee that your crops will be short of K at thier maximum requirement when crops are being pushed through growth stages by large quanities of N, the plant simply cannot take up the k quckly enough to keep it in balance.

    The only way you will know what is going on is to take plant and soil samples together, see what is going on in the soil and how this relates to what is in the plant ie "ask the plant" but do not rely on just one test, you need to take samples every week to build up the picture, nutrient uptake and plant growth is highly affected by soil and weather conditions.

    In tests we have done I can find pH moving from 7.4 down to 6.2 and everywhere in between, just over a spring/summer growing period.

    The real point is, what do you need to grow the best crop possible in your soil? A healthy soil will have a reasonable balance of all minerals but it is also essential it has a good balance of beneficial Biology and of course good soil structure with no compaction. The best crop that you can grow in your soil may not be the best crop that another and different soil could grow, the biggest influence is on the depth of soil and the structure of the clay.
    In the end you are dependent on factors you have no control over, ie temperature water and sun.

    Plumbo

  7. #67
    JD_Kid
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    done 3 tests kinsey quick tests and also plant

    K in the dry find higher Na up take than K thats even with lower N levels

    In the end you are dependent on factors you have no control over, ie temperature water and sun.
    sum's it up

  8. #68
    York
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by JD_Kid View Post
    done 3 tests kinsey quick tests and also plant

    K in the dry find higher Na up take than K thats even with lower N levels

    In the end you are dependent on factors you have no control over, ie temperature water and sun.
    sum's it up
    so we are in the "wills" of nature which we have no influence on, or?
    I rather be prepared on all the extremes and get my crop as much well equiped / prepared as possible to cope with the stresses which nature provide, be it
    to much or too little water
    to much or tooo little temperature
    to much or too little light
    to be continued.
    What a soil sample should give you is a good prediction of what is going to happen. And I haven't found a better and more precise way to be able to do it than this Albrecht test.
    So test your consultant. do the following:
    do a soil test with Kinsey and do from the same location a tissue sample of the growing plants. Give the result of the soil test to your consultant or company you work with, or if they say we have a better soil test, let them do it their way and have them predict which problems are you going to have or how the tissue sample taken the same spot & day are looking like. Don't give them the tissue results before.
    I can tell you that I'm regularly going through this test's. and I have never seen the field or location which it was done so far. I know the day will come when I fail, but so far it hasn't taken place jet.
    Age of the concept, Albrecht been dead by almost 40 years now:
    sorry, if some people just would look at history and read the actual books on Soil Science and plant nutrition, at least which are used at German Universities, will see that this concept is not outdated at all.
    Coming up with such statements: the man is so long dead just shows me the ignorance of historic facts and the way things where researched and who was involved. Just look ath the work of Prof. Hans Jenny of the University of Berkley.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Je...8pedologist%29
    Ratios:
    By the way talk to your Vet's and ask them on the desired ratio's in the blood of a cattle which is healthy. They will confirm to you that this are the ratio's we are talking for the soil which they want to see in the blood.
    So, TEST YOUR CONSULTANT or the Service Company your are working with. It is about predictability & Repeatability.
    York-Th.
    p.s. because the test's we are using that precise I don't have to travel that much and work in around 8 different countries, as far as South Africa & Russia, and be paid for the work even if I have of 70% of my clients never seen a field by nature.

  9. #69
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Thanks for your post York - sound advice. How long does KinseyAg take to process samples and return their recommendations at this time of year if samples are coming in from abroad?

  10. #70
    York
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    Thanks for your post York - sound advice. How long does KinseyAg take to process samples and return their recommendations at this time of year if samples are coming in from abroad?
    I'm not going to make any promise or comment on behalf of KinseyAg on their turning around time. From my experience the last 10+ years I only can say that they can vary quite a bit. Our clients know this and we are planning ahead. But with this special test, which we tend to need be done in the clay soils of GB and over here the turn around times are even longer, but worth it.
    Sorry, I can't be more precise.
    York-Th.

  11. #71
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by York View Post
    I'm not going to make any promise or comment on behalf of KinseyAg on their turning around time. From my experience the last 10+ years I only can say that they can vary quite a bit. Our clients know this and we are planning ahead. But with this special test, which we tend to need be done in the clay soils of GB and over here the turn around times are even longer, but worth it.
    Sorry, I can't be more precise.
    York-Th.
    Read this and gave them a ring. Very nice people. Apparently turn around times are 1 month if you don't want Kinsey himself to do the recommendations or 3-4 months if you do. The guy said that in order to give fertiliser recommendations it is necessary for Kinsey himself to take a look. Is it worth getting this done? (Bit of a rookie question I know.)

    They are considerably cheaper (by about a half) than the Albrecht test quotes I've got in the UK and given that I'm hoping to do about 50 samples that's quite a saving. Have to order myself a soil probe first though. Any thoughts on this one:

    http://www.pitchcare.com/shop/soil-s...l-sampler.html

    York you interest my with your mysterious test. I understand that if you were to tell me you'd have to kill me (or at least charge me). I'll take a guess and say that it's the K displacement test but would probably be wrong

    Because I don't wish to pester York too much (!) does anyone else know if Perry labs do K displacement tests and should I have this test done given the predominant soil type is chalky boulder clay (Slejpner I remember reading some of your advice on this point)?

    TIA.

  12. #72
    slejpner
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    You are correct Feldspar.
    The K-Displacement test is what York is referring too, and well worth doing.

  13. #73
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by slejpner View Post
    You are correct Feldspar.
    The K-Displacement test is what York is referring too, and well worth doing.
    Great, thanks very much Slejpner.

  14. #74
    dominat
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Kinsey lab does do the displacement test. In my experience, if Neil/ his colleagues think there are samples that need this test, they ask whether client wants it done. In my case it was only a small percentage.

  15. #75
    York
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Just to be sure every one is seeing it:
    Kinsey Basic Seminar is held in GB next Febg. Info here:
    http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/sho...70#post1017070
    York-Th.

  16. #76
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quick heads up that there are some very interesting talks on nutrients in the next hour on the live stream from the HGCA agronomists conference (available on the HGCA website).

    Well worth a watch.

    ETA: 12.50 is about the use of micronutrients in wheat.

  17. #77
    York
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    Quick heads up that there are some very interesting talks on nutrients in the next hour on the live stream from the HGCA agronomists conference (available on the HGCA website).
    Well worth a watch.
    ETA: 12.50 is about the use of micronutrients in wheat.
    Thanks Feldspar for the link.
    Did view the speach on micronutrients. Very interesting and nothing rely new, is over here the same.
    I have some questions, also to the trials performed over here:
    - did they ever monitor if they had enough of the tested minerals in the plants? Even of the other nutrients in the plants? They assumed that the other where there adequately, but did they check this?
    - it is known that quite a number of minerals are not translocated downwards (Basipetal - Xylem) so if we had a def. we didn't help the root development. Ending up with a limited root system which limited water uptake = yield when it was dry (okay, not a topic of this year in your region)
    - if we come up with the hypothesis that good mineral status is linked to disease why did they not stop using the normal spray program to rely check the response?
    Wasn't it Neil Fuller which did some demo plots on Cereals on what minerals can archive?
    So the summary is, to their trial: basically we don't need it and we need more trials to prove.
    This is not a particular critic to your people but applies also over here.
    York-Th.

  18. #78
    shakerator
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    Quick heads up that there are some very interesting talks on nutrients in the next hour on the live stream from the HGCA agronomists conference (available on the HGCA website).

    Well worth a watch.

    ETA: 12.50 is about the use of micronutrients in wheat.
    I was there yesterday.

    How to p*ss off 400 agronomists........

    Tell them ALL micronutirents are a waste of time

  19. #79
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Apparently the presentations should be up on YouTube at some point, or at least so I'm told.

  20. #80
    Col
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Quote Originally Posted by shakerator View Post
    I was there yesterday.

    How to p*ss off 400 agronomists........

    Tell them ALL micronutirents are a waste of time
    Especially chelates!:lolk:
    All you need is Manganese Sulphate, Copper Oxychloride, Epsom salts etc etc.

  21. #81
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: Correcting nutrient deficiencies la Kinsey in a DD system

    Just had a quick read through Yara's micronutrient product guide.

    Top link on the following page:

    http://www.yara.co.uk/fertilizer/pro...nts/index.aspx

    Interesting two pages near the end - pp. 88 and 89. A couple of diagrams that they use appear in Kinsey's book but the most interesting bit is the 'Main Nutrient Interactions' table on p. 89. Are they tacitly assuming the validity of the Base Cation Saturation Ratio theory here or not?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •