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Thread: Alternative to V27

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    Alternative to V27

    Currently looking at a 225 Kw machine. Is the V27 the only show in town at this level of can anyone recommend a suitable competitor?

    Also as I understand it the V27 is an IEC class 1 machine and therefore rated for use in mean annual wind speeds up to 10m/sec. The V29 is class 2 which according to IEC should be operable in speeds up to 8.5m/sec. Sadly it seems the manufacturers will only install V29 on sites 7.5m/sec or less. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to why...'cause they sure as hell don't seem to know!

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    I am looking slightly larger 250kw class 1A machine built in NZ the windflow W33 250kw. Unfortunately UK exchange rate not helping at the moment but by the time we get planning it may have swung back the other way.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    I am looking slightly larger 250kw class 1A machine built in NZ the windflow W33 250kw. Unfortunately UK exchange rate not helping at the moment but by the time we get planning it may have swung back the other way.
    Hopefully your planning won't take as long as its likely to take the pound to recover! :-)

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    I am looking slightly larger 250kw class 1A machine built in NZ the windflow W33 250kw. Unfortunately UK exchange rate not helping at the moment but by the time we get planning it may have swung back the other way.
    Just wondering, given your post, if you have a current price for the turbine (the 250 Kw one).. Probably get it quicker and more straightforwardly from you than suppliers who seem unable to give a straight answer to a straight question.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertybobberty View Post
    Just wondering, given your post, if you have a current price for the turbine (the 250 Kw one).. Probably get it quicker and more straightforwardly from you than suppliers who seem unable to give a straight answer to a straight question.
    Still trying to pin them down. They have quoted for raft foundation and I prefer the cheaper pile foundation. Total project cost (2 turbines) has been budgeted at 1.5 M but that does include 100k grid connection and a solar thermal modification.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Wind Technik Nord do a 250Kw turbine ( WTN250 ) . Its imported to the UK by Hallmark Renewables.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    Still trying to pin them down. They have quoted for raft foundation and I prefer the cheaper pile foundation. Total project cost (2 turbines) has been budgeted at 1.5 M but that does include 100k grid connection and a solar thermal modification.
    Reading their promotional blurb and not sure if I'm being a bit of a 40watt bulb but it seems that the difference between the 250 and the 500kw is the rotational speed and that the structural stuff is the same ie blade diameter, mast height. Undoubtedly some changes in the guts of the machine but surely one at 500 is going to be cheaper than two at 250?

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    You get far more output from 2 x 250 machines rather than 1 x 500 ie output is virtually the same for windspeeds upto 10 m/s and you get full 500w output at 13 m/s using 2 machines whereas with 1 machine 500 kw output is not achieved until 17 m/s. Besides which 250 kw machines are easier to get through planning as there only half the size wink wink.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    ...which just about says all there is to say regarding planning process!

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Hi

    I am just starting two planning applications, one for a v29 225kW and one for a E40 500kW they should be ready to submit in a couple of weeks. The last application I did was for two V27 225kW turbines which I submitted on the 11th Dec 2012 and was passed at the committee meeting on the 12th Feb 2013. the planning was fine but the MOD was a challenge to get them to back down.

    As for the turbines we only deal with Joint Ventures and land lease but our prices are 230,000 for a Vestas V27 225kW and 295,000 for a Enercon E40 500kW.

    Ps. output is mainly down to:
    The blade size as the turbine will hit its max output at lower wind speeds.
    Wind speed =if you use a taller tower or better position and get 10% more wind, you will get about 34% more power generated

    Kind regards

    Boythorpe Wind Energy

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Boythorpe Wind Energy View Post
    Hi

    I am just starting two planning applications, one for a v29 225kW and one for a E40 500kW they should be ready to submit in a couple of weeks. The last application I did was for two V27 225kW turbines which I submitted on the 11th Dec 2012 and was passed at the committee meeting on the 12th Feb 2013. the planning was fine but the MOD was a challenge to get them to back down.

    As for the turbines we only deal with Joint Ventures and land lease but our prices are 230,000 for a Vestas V27 225kW and 295,000 for a Enercon E40 500kW.

    Ps. output is mainly down to:
    The blade size as the turbine will hit its max output at lower wind speeds.
    Wind speed =if you use a taller tower or better position and get 10% more wind, you will get about 34% more power generated

    Kind regards

    Boythorpe Wind Energy
    Was the MOD concerned about their AD Radar? It is certainly a challenge to get a reply off MOD never mind getting them to change their mind.

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    Junior Member Boythorpe Wind Energy's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Hi

    Yes, RAF Staxton Wold is about 2 miles away on the same hilltop. They just kept saying no without looking I think.

    Kind regards

    BWE

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Boythorpe Wind Energy View Post
    Hi

    Yes, RAF Staxton Wold is about 2 miles away on the same hilltop. They just kept saying no without looking I think.

    Kind regards

    BWE
    I have an objection from them from RAF Brizlee Wood. 72 KM away they reckon it is interfering with the Radar. I can not even get a reply off them. They did not object when they were consulted pre planning in late 2011.

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    Junior Member Boythorpe Wind Energy's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I have an objection from them from RAF Brizlee Wood. 72 KM away they reckon it is interfering with the Radar. I can not even get a reply off them. They did not object when they were consulted pre planning in late 2011.
    Hi

    Is your turbine in?

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    No, the application has been withdrawn. GFW Renewables were handling it. So is a bit of a stalemate

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    Junior Member Boythorpe Wind Energy's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Hi

    Pm me what council is it with and what was the referance.

    Kind regards

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I have an objection from them from RAF Brizlee Wood. 72 KM away they reckon it is interfering with the Radar. I can not even get a reply off them. They did not object when they were consulted pre planning in late 2011.
    Have heard that wooden blades like on the windflow do not interfere with the radar. Might be worth a try.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Planners around here will not accept two bladed turbines if they are in the same landscape as three bladed machines. Unless you live in the outer hebrides or similar, the Windflow Turbine is useless, it needs a gale force wind to get up to rated power, a strong breeze just to get it to turn.

    Not much use for the UK market really

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Planners around here will not accept two bladed turbines if they are in the same landscape as three bladed machines. Unless you live in the outer hebrides or similar, the Windflow Turbine is useless, it needs a gale force wind to get up to rated power, a strong breeze just to get it to turn.

    Not much use for the UK market really
    Cut in speed of 4 m/s rated output at 13 m/s hardly a gale force wind. thats for the 250 kw version the 500 kw version cut in at 4 m/s and rated output at 11 m/s.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    13 m/s is around 30 mph, ask yourself how much of the time is the wind blowing like that. cut in speed should be around 2.5 to 3 m/s, I would be sick of seeing the thing not turning, as well as getting stick off me mates!!!

    Unless you have a class 1 Windspeed site I reckon Windflow are a non starter in the UK market, I think they have only sold one and it is their own joint venture

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Boythorpe Wind Energy View Post
    Hi

    I am just starting two planning applications, one for a v29 225kW and one for a E40 500kW they should be ready to submit in a couple of weeks. The last application I did was for two V27 225kW turbines which I submitted on the 11th Dec 2012 and was passed at the committee meeting on the 12th Feb 2013. the planning was fine but the MOD was a challenge to get them to back down.

    As for the turbines we only deal with Joint Ventures and land lease but our prices are 230,000 for a Vestas V27 225kW and 295,000 for a Enercon E40 500kW.

    Ps. output is mainly down to:
    The blade size as the turbine will hit its max output at lower wind speeds.
    Wind speed =if you use a taller tower or better position and get 10% more wind, you will get about 34% more power generated

    Kind regards

    Boythorpe Wind Energy
    What sort of warranty is there on these two turbines and is there an option to buy extended warranty packages?

    Thanks

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    13 m/s is around 30 mph, ask yourself how much of the time is the wind blowing like that. cut in speed should be around 2.5 to 3 m/s, I would be sick of seeing the thing not turning, as well as getting stick off me mates!!!

    Unless you have a class 1 Windspeed site I reckon Windflow are a non starter in the UK market, I think they have only sold one and it is their own joint venture
    It is only on my list due to the hydraulic capability which I have a specific use for.

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    Junior Member Boythorpe Wind Energy's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Pm sent

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Hello is this a RRB 225kw or ACSA 225kw . We are having problems getting delvery on ACSA one just now!

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    You get far more output from 2 x 250 machines rather than 1 x 500 ie output is virtually the same for windspeeds upto 10 m/s and you get full 500w output at 13 m/s using 2 machines whereas with 1 machine 500 kw output is not achieved until 17 m/s. Besides which 250 kw machines are easier to get through planning as there only half the size wink wink.
    Er I'm not sure what machines you are talking about here to make this statement, but this is basically wrong.

    If you're talking about 2 typical 225/250 kw machines vs a typical 500 kw then the single 500kw wins hands down. We have just got planning through for a 500kw turbine, the choices for us being EWT, Enercon or Gamesa. These machines are all 800/900kw machines that have a derated generator. The main point about them is that they have a much larger swept area than the 500kw designation would indicate if there was such a thing as a 500kw sized turbine. And the single most important factor determining how many units are generated annually is the swept area.

    The Windflow machine is a bit of a con to the uninitiated. It's called a 500 kw machine because it has a 500kw generator. It's basically a 250kw sized machine with a bigger generator. It may well produce more output annually than a 250kw Windflow but it won't be by much.

    We originally looked at 2 x 250kw machines for our site, but changed to a single 500kw machine because of yield. At our site (7.3m/sec windspeed at hub height) the 2 machines would produce 1.4 million units, whereas a single 500kw machine would produce around 2 million. And a single 500kw machine would cost less to put up than 2 x 250kw machines. Now that we have planning permission we can say that it was a no-brainer. We've sweated for months and months though!!

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    Cut in speed of 4 m/s rated output at 13 m/s hardly a gale force wind. thats for the 250 kw version the 500 kw version cut in at 4 m/s and rated output at 11 m/s.
    500kw version has cut-in speed of 5.5 and rated speed of 13.7.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Er I'm not sure what machines you are talking about here to make this statement, but this is basically wrong.

    If you're talking about 2 typical 225/250 kw machines vs a typical 500 kw then the single 500kw wins hands down. We have just got planning through for a 500kw turbine, the choices for us being EWT, Enercon or Gamesa. These machines are all 800/900kw machines that have a derated generator. The main point about them is that they have a much larger swept area than the 500kw designation would indicate if there was such a thing as a 500kw sized turbine. And the single most important factor determining how many units are generated annually is the swept area.

    The Windflow machine is a bit of a con to the uninitiated. It's called a 500 kw machine because it has a 500kw generator. It's basically a 250kw sized machine with a bigger generator. It may well produce more output annually than a 250kw Windflow but it won't be by much.

    We originally looked at 2 x 250kw machines for our site, but changed to a single 500kw machine because of yield. At our site (7.3m/sec windspeed at hub height) the 2 machines would produce 1.4 million units, whereas a single 500kw machine would produce around 2 million. And a single 500kw machine would cost less to put up than 2 x 250kw machines. Now that we have planning permission we can say that it was a no-brainer. We've sweated for months and months though!!
    What Tip height have you got the planning for? I looked at Gamesa and EWT opted for Enercon, the 15 year full warranty swayed the decision for me!

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    500kw version has cut-in speed of 5.5 and rated speed of 13.7.
    Figures I quoted direct off the windflow power curve for a WF45 500kw machine with cut in at 4 m/s and rated output at 11 m/s

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    Er I'm not sure what machines you are talking about here to make this statement, but this is basically wrong.

    If you're talking about 2 typical 225/250 kw machines vs a typical 500 kw then the single 500kw wins hands down. We have just got planning through for a 500kw turbine, the choices for us being EWT, Enercon or Gamesa. These machines are all 800/900kw machines that have a derated generator. The main point about them is that they have a much larger swept area than the 500kw designation would indicate if there was such a thing as a 500kw sized turbine. And the single most important factor determining how many units are generated annually is the swept area.

    The Windflow machine is a bit of a con to the uninitiated. It's called a 500 kw machine because it has a 500kw generator. It's basically a 250kw sized machine with a bigger generator. It may well produce more output annually than a 250kw Windflow but it won't be by much.

    We originally looked at 2 x 250kw machines for our site, but changed to a single 500kw machine because of yield. At our site (7.3m/sec windspeed at hub height) the 2 machines would produce 1.4 million units, whereas a single 500kw machine would produce around 2 million. And a single 500kw machine would cost less to put up than 2 x 250kw machines. Now that we have planning permission we can say that it was a no-brainer. We've sweated for months and months though!!
    You readily admit your not talking about a 500 kw machine but a down rated 900 kw machine. Fine if you have a planning authority what could not care less what size of machine is installed but faced with my local authority where the largest machine approved is 20 kw getting a true 250 kw machine approved is difficult enough. Not helped by the 5 x 500 kw applications which have already been refused as the planners are not stupid and can see straight through the downrated 900 kw machines.

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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    You readily admit your not talking about a 500 kw machine but a down rated 900 kw machine. Fine if you have a planning authority what could not care less what size of machine is installed but faced with my local authority where the largest machine approved is 20 kw getting a true 250 kw machine approved is difficult enough. Not helped by the 5 x 500 kw applications which have already been refused as the planners are not stupid and can see straight through the downrated 900 kw machines.
    Surely the Planners have not refused permission purely on the output of the Turbine, if they have that would be easily overturned on appeal. I would have thought their was less visual impact from one 500KW Turbine than two 250KW models.

    As you say their seems such a different policy between LPAs

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