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Thread: Alternative to V27

  1. #31
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Surely the Planners have not refused permission purely on the output of the Turbine, if they have that would be easily overturned on appeal. I would have thought their was less visual impact from one 500KW Turbine than two 250KW models.

    As you say their seems such a different policy between LPAs
    Planners around here are a law to themselves. Farmer just over the local authority border from me had approval for a 250kw turbine on 30 mtr pole tried to change spec to 330kw turbine on 50 mtr pole which was rejected and the original permission rescinded. Needless to say it is up for appeal later this month. Crazy situation just 2 miles down the road in a different authority I have to watch 12 x 2.5 MW turbines then 5 miles as the crow flies over the next hill is 26 x 2.5 MW turbines.

  2. #32
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    Planners around here are a law to themselves. Farmer just over the local authority border from me had approval for a 250kw turbine on 30 mtr pole tried to change spec to 330kw turbine on 50 mtr pole which was rejected and the original permission rescinded. Needless to say it is up for appeal later this month. Crazy situation just 2 miles down the road in a different authority I have to watch 12 x 2.5 MW turbines then 5 miles as the crow flies over the next hill is 26 x 2.5 MW turbines.
    This is the trouble with these single or twin Turbine projects that farmers are rightly being encouraged to invest in through the FIT scheme. You end up choosing a Turbine to satisfy the planning authority, instead the Turbine should be chosen to suit the specific site. This is even more important when you have your home and business up as security on the project as I have.

    The Planners certainly want to get a grip!!

  3. #33
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Thats the problem around here the planners have got a grip if the land is classed as green belt. It took me 8 years just to get permission for an agricultural building under permitted development having been refused twice but winning on appeal by a sympathetic Inspector who chastised the tactics used by the planners.

    It is ridiculous at the moment my turbine choice is being dictated by the size of the supergrid pylon so that it blends in. (How can a supergrid pylon blend in especially when its plonked right on the hill top)

  4. #34
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by renewablejohn View Post
    You readily admit your not talking about a 500 kw machine but a down rated 900 kw machine. Fine if you have a planning authority what could not care less what size of machine is installed but faced with my local authority where the largest machine approved is 20 kw getting a true 250 kw machine approved is difficult enough. Not helped by the 5 x 500 kw applications which have already been refused as the planners are not stupid and can see straight through the downrated 900 kw machines.
    The original point was about 2 250 machines vs a single 500 machine. There are no "proper" 500 machines available, in spite of the Windflow 500, which is really just a smaller machine with a bigger generator. What we are talking about is annual yield surely when you talk about output? So when people talk about a 500kw machine, anyone would naturally make the assumption that they'd look to the higher yielding machines.

  5. #35
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    What Tip height have you got the planning for? I looked at Gamesa and EWT opted for Enercon, the 15 year full warranty swayed the decision for me!
    78m. I haven't made any decision yet. Spoke to EWT, got Gamesa coming in a few days. Enercon should be the best machine perhaps, but yield is lower. Also as far as I'm aware neither the Gamesa and Enercon have been approved by Ofgem yet, which is a bit of a potential gamble. I haven't studied the different warranties and service contratcs yet, early days.

  6. #36
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGrohl View Post
    The original point was about 2 250 machines vs a single 500 machine. There are no "proper" 500 machines available, in spite of the Windflow 500, which is really just a smaller machine with a bigger generator. What we are talking about is annual yield surely when you talk about output? So when people talk about a 500kw machine, anyone would naturally make the assumption that they'd look to the higher yielding machines.
    No the original point was that given the same size footprint ie 30 mtr tower 33 mtr blades would you not go for the 500 kw option rather than 2 x 250 kw. Obviously if you change the foot print to 50 mtr tower 56 mtr blades to generate 500 kw you get far better performance but our planners automatically refuse that size of turbine.

  7. #37
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    I am new to this forum, and as you can see from my name I work for Windflow, but I will try to be as independent as I can!

    My summary of the discussion so far: there are a number of turbines with ratings from 250 to 500 kW with rotors of 27 – 33 m and tip heights under 50 m, including the V27 and the Windflow 250 and 500. These are the size of turbine which generally go through planning quickly, can be easily installed on site without straightening roads and strengthening bridges, and there is no question that their rating is what is claimed. There are also several 800 and 900 kW turbines, de-rated to 500 kW for FIT purposes in the UK market, which have rotors from about 48 – 56 m and tip heights from about 60 m upwards. One of these projects will generate more than one of the sub 50 m turbines, and indeed more than 2 of them at 250 kW. However planning costs, planning lead times, site access, total project cost and the risk of DECC or OFGEM changing their mind on de-rating must be considered.

  8. #38
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    To add to some of the comments about Windflow turbines:

    The Windflow 500 is a class 1A turbine with a 33m rotor and 500 kW generator on a 30 or 50 m tower. It costs more than some other similarly sized turbines due to its design integrity (it is good for class 1A conditions) and high quality supply chain. It comes into its own on a demanding site where it will generate up to 1,895 MWh/yr at 10 m/s AMWS.

    The Windflow 250 is a variant of the 500. It is also class 1A with a 33m rotor on the 30 or 50 m tower. It has a 250 kW generator, a slower rotor speed which helps with noise / separation distances and gives it a lower cut in wind speed. It produces up to 1,254 MWh/yr on a 10 m/s site, and the production difference vs a 500 is less on lower wind speed sites.

    Currently in development is the Windflow 500 class 2A. This is a stretched version with a 45 m rotor and a lowest tower height of 38 m, which is optimised for medium and lower wind speed sites. For the first time this Windflow will have a variable speed rotor. It will produce up to 2,096 MWh/yr on an 8.5 m/s site. It is a genuine 500 kW turbine and sits in the space between the under 50 m turbines and the de-rated 8-900 kW turbines.

    All come with a 5 year parts warranty and an optional 5 or 10 year “full service” operations, maintenance and warranty package. The 5 or 10 year O&M and extended warranty package can be underwritten by our license partner, the US industrial giant General Dynamics. For specific information and quotes contact a dealer or get in touch via our Windflow.co.uk site

  9. #39
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Does anyone know if the blades on a v27 share any common serial numbers as the tower. A v27 has a 4 digit serial number

  10. #40
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Surely the Planners have not refused permission purely on the output of the Turbine, if they have that would be easily overturned on appeal. I would have thought their was less visual impact from one 500KW Turbine than two 250KW models.

    As you say their seems such a different policy between LPAs
    They do indeed refuse permission on these grounds (certainly round here)....has to be operationally linked to a current farm business.
    They also turn it down because of tv interference which has been "extensively" researched (on the internet!) by the objectors ignoring our inch and a half thick booklet of real studies carried out by professionals.
    Similarly they consider the removal of 8 metres( 3 metres of which is actually an overgrown gateway) of hedge extensive despite our replanting of 200 metres.
    They ignore our transport surveys to prove access is possible relying on unsubstantiated opinions from the highways people.
    They ignore our submissions by ecologists and rely on an unsubstantiated objection by the council ecologist who likes to say no.
    They object on the grounds of noise despite having no one qualified to comment.
    and so on.
    In short they dont want anything bigger than a 6 kW machine

  11. #41
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Linga - your lot seems to have a very different view to the neighbouring Authority (Carmarthen). But then again talk to an Applicant around here and the planners are "dead against anything and are a bunch of idiots", talk to an objector and the planners are "in the pockets of the developer and a bunch of idiots" - I'm glad I'm not a Planner!

    I have to say, having to be operationally linked to an existing farm business is not such a stupid idea as it would stop those speculative applications on inappropriate sites which help to undermine well thought out schemes.

  12. #42
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by windylamb View Post
    Linga - your lot seems to have a very different view to the neighbouring Authority (Carmarthen). But then again talk to an Applicant around here and the planners are "dead against anything and are a bunch of idiots", talk to an objector and the planners are "in the pockets of the developer and a bunch of idiots" - I'm glad I'm not a Planner!

    I have to say, having to be operationally linked to an existing farm business is not such a stupid idea as it would stop those speculative applications on inappropriate sites which help to undermine well thought out schemes.
    Why should operationally linking to an existing farm business stop speculative applications?
    Any site whether farmer owned or not can be inappropriate and speculative.
    What they mean by operational link is that it must not produce an output greater than the current needs of the farm business. How can you plan for the future like that and in what way are the large wind farms operationally linked to any local (farm) business ?

  13. #43
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    So operationally linked. My farm uses 35kw electric therefore I need a 250kw turbine at an average 6 m/s wind speed. At which point the local parish councillor suggested I reduce my consumption than a 20kw turbine would be adequate for my needs. Talk about clueless.

  14. #44
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Quote Originally Posted by WindflowAndy View Post
    To add to some of the comments about Windflow turbines:

    The Windflow 500 is a class 1A turbine with a 33m rotor and 500 kW generator on a 30 or 50 m tower. It costs more than some other similarly sized turbines due to its design integrity (it is good for class 1A conditions) and high quality supply chain. It comes into its own on a demanding site where it will generate up to 1,895 MWh/yr at 10 m/s AMWS.

    The Windflow 250 is a variant of the 500. It is also class 1A with a 33m rotor on the 30 or 50 m tower. It has a 250 kW generator, a slower rotor speed which helps with noise / separation distances and gives it a lower cut in wind speed. It produces up to 1,254 MWh/yr on a 10 m/s site, and the production difference vs a 500 is less on lower wind speed sites.

    Currently in development is the Windflow 500 class 2A. This is a stretched version with a 45 m rotor and a lowest tower height of 38 m, which is optimised for medium and lower wind speed sites. For the first time this Windflow will have a variable speed rotor. It will produce up to 2,096 MWh/yr on an 8.5 m/s site. It is a genuine 500 kW turbine and sits in the space between the under 50 m turbines and the de-rated 8-900 kW turbines.

    All come with a 5 year parts warranty and an optional 5 or 10 year “full service” operations, maintenance and warranty package. The 5 or 10 year O&M and extended warranty package can be underwritten by our license partner, the US industrial giant General Dynamics. For specific information and quotes contact a dealer or get in touch via our Windflow.co.uk site
    If order was placed today what is the price for Windflow 500 Class !a. Will remain sitting as I expect a shock when you look at NZ$ rate!

  15. #45
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    Re: Alternative to V27

    Linga- Sorry I misunderstood the operational link - can't believe that they'd actually meant output greater than the farm needs (annual average generation or peak load requirement????).We weren't on mains for years and therefore got used to very low power requirements meaning that your planners would consider our Gaia to have been too big for our farm - Madness. You have my deepest sympathy. Renewablejohn's comment shows the clear lack of understanding that exists in the system.

    What I meant by speculative was big turbine on small (remotely owned) field with no local power requirement and no realistic grid connection - there's plenty of them in the system. Just undermines, for example, the Dairy farmer wanting a 50-250 kW turbine to produce for (part) on site consumption and Fits security. Inappropriate speculative turbine applications have helped the Nimbys and has driven up the cost of all applications (Noise report, ZTV report, etc, etc).

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